Bachmann Hawksworth Autocoach

[Fat Controller]

If you have Thrush you need to go to a clinic...

You could try live natural yogurt.

[sp1]

You could try live natural yogurt.

Does that come in a Halfords red spray can?

[RJS1977]

I've come late to this thread having just found a link linked to it, so apologies for resurrecting it

 

The autocoach seems pricey (I can't afford one/SWMBO would have a fit, but then I do have 3 Airfix and 2 K's autocoaches already), but quality has always been expensive. For example, in the fifties, a Hornby Dublo Stanier coach* was around 15/-. a Farish Pullman (the bees knees in R-T-R at the time**) 27/6 and and an Exley about £2 (it needed bogies at extra cost IIRC). Allowing for inflation, these figures are of the order £20, £35 and £55 (it's impossible to be exact on this***) which are not all that out of line, especially considering the relatively better quality of the modern product. An example of a model which has lasted until today is the Tri-ang utility van which has gone from 7/6d to £20 or so - IIRC the Churchill funeral version was £25 - The only real difference is that modern versions have a painted finish rather than self coloured plastic.

 

 

Back in those days, only the rich could afford Exleys and it wasn't until first HD then Tri-ang and Grafar and later Airfix and Lima brought out less-detailed, more affordable models that the model railway hobby really became the mass hobby spawning railway clubs and shops in nearly every town. I do fear that the drive for ever-more expensive/ 'high quality' models and the withdrawal of less detailed, cheper ones, is returning us back to the early days :-(

[coachmann]

Those who consider sixty notes for a Hawksworth auto trailer have patently never built or painted one!  I suggest 'Le miserables' take a close look at one of the Bachmann trailers and note the rivet detail on the roof, something you wont get on an etched brass kit, the chassis detail and the well detailed bogies. 

 

Assuming I have gotten it wrong and you guys are in fact builders, price up a kit and bogies and interior seats. Cost your labour at whatever you feel your time is worth and add that. Then spray it using off the shelf cans (more expense) to produce a good finish. And finally lets see you line it out......dont forget those tricky front and back ends too! Apply transfers (assuming you dont have to go out and spend more money on them) then have fun fitting the glazing. Assemble and there you have it, your own creation. And what did it cost you in time and labour? .... £300.00? More....?  

[Ian Hargrave]

Those who consider sixty notes for a Hawksworth auto trailer have patently never built or painted one!  I suggest 'Le miserables' take a close look at one of the Bachmann trailers and note the rivet detail on the roof, something you wont get on an etched brass kit, the chassis detail and the well detailed bogies. 

 

Assuming I have gotten it wrong and you guys are in fact builders, price up a kit and bogies and interior seats. Cost your labour at whatever you feel your time is worth and add that. Then spray it using off the shelf cans (more expense) to produce a good finish. And finally lets see you line it out......dont forget those tricky front and back ends too! Apply transfers (assuming you dont have to go out and spend more money on them) then have fun fitting the glazing. Assemble and there you have it, your own creation. And what did it cost you in time and labour? .... £300.00? More....?  

And this is a guy you cannot possibly argue with.....though I suppose there's always the odd one who thinks he knows better fantasising over his own keyboard.

[Legend]

No doubt building a kit and finishing it to someone like Coachmanns standards would have a prohibitive cost. But this is not a hand assembled model it's a mass produced ( no someone will say quantities are not mass , ok 1000s produced) model with some assembly, but not anything like a kit. It's a series of plastic pressings assembled. Compare it with other mass produced items eg Colletts , mk3s that's the more relevant comparison

 

Les Miserable

[coachmann]

Building and painting a kit to anyone's standard has a cost, but the simple fact is, mass-produced model cannot be beaten on price. This is the point I am trying top put over. I bought two Bachmanns and then removed the sides and fitted etched brass ones. I considered that this combination gave me the best possible model for an outlay of around £85.00 each not including my time. They were sold when I went 0 gauge. 

[JSpencer]

No doubt building a kit and finishing it to someone like Coachmanns standards would have a prohibitive cost. But this is not a hand assembled model it's a mass produced ( no someone will say quantities are not mass , ok 1000s produced) model with some assembly, but not anything like a kit. It's a series of plastic pressings assembled. Compare it with other mass produced items eg Colletts , mk3s that's the more relevant comparison

Les Miserable

Technically even RTR is still assembled by hand, only there are a lot of jigs and tampo machines, and many staff focused on just one or a few parts that help.

[Dunsignalling]

No doubt building a kit and finishing it to someone like Coachmanns standards would have a prohibitive cost. But this is not a hand assembled model it's a mass produced ( no someone will say quantities are not mass , ok 1000s produced) model with some assembly, but not anything like a kit. It's a series of plastic pressings assembled. Compare it with other mass produced items eg Colletts , mk3s that's the more relevant comparison

 

Les Miserable

Unassembled kits don't generally come with a hundred grand (or thereabouts) bill for toolmaking, though, do they?

 

The difference with the Hornby Colletts is that all the varieties share all the below-the-floor components. The tooling cost for all that is shared between the five-model range. 20% each, possibly less if some bits are common to the Hawksworths, too.

 

Everything on the Bachmann Autocoach is unique to the one model in the same way it was with the LMS Inspection saloon.

 

It has also been apparent for some time that (at least until Hornby's own price increases kick in) Bachmann coaches are more expensive. Hornby's significantly cheaper autocoach is easily obtainable even if it's not currently in production. However, once you add in the cost of the detailing kit, flush glazing and close coupler units required to bring it up to a comparable standard, it won't be all that much cheaper.

 

John

Edited January 30, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Guest Midland Mole]

We got these in today as part of a massive Bachmann delivery, and I must say they look very nice. If I was doing a layout set in the Western Region, I would definitely be buying one.

 

Alex

[The Johnster]

Well, I've been and gorn and dun it, nearly 70 beer vouchers for a lined maroon one from Lord and Butler.  My wallet is still in post traumatic stress and is undergoing a course of therapy.  Overall, I'm happy with it and the sharp stabbing pain in my pocket will fade in a while.  It is a very good and well detailed model which is finished superbly and looks the part, knocks the old Airfix in to a cocked hat. as it should at that price.  The steps are very finely done, especially the angled ones on the ends, the windows as flush as they ought to be, and there is a nice bit of cab detail as well.  The lettering and lining is very good, some of it too fine for me to read without a magnifier, and the maroon looks right, especially up against the sort of purple of an old Airfix A30 which it runs with, a good representation of a newly painted coach running with an older faded one.  Buffers are a big improvement on the Airfix, and there is a wealth of fine detail on the roof.  I was a little disappointed to see moulded driver's and guard's handrails, but at normal viewing distances it doesn't really show much, and I can replace them.  The biggest visual issue is the high floor, essential for the structure and difficult to address.  Mine will, when I summon the courage to open it up, be painted a dark matt to try to divert my attention from it.

 

I am a happy bunny, but will always resent the cost!

[chrisf]

One way of dealing with the moulded handrails might be to use the Dart Castings detailing kit designed for the Airfix/Hornby A28/A30 trailer.  It also includes etches for replacement folding steps.

 

I do think that a crimson or blood and custard example would have been closer to Johnster's chosen period though.

 

Chris

[The Johnster]

Dart Castings; I also need the cab details for the other auto trailer.

 

1948 to 60ish, so a bit of leeway, and my other two A30s are blood/custard and whatever that sort of puprle Airfix maroon coaches are s'posed to represent, which I assume to be the 1956 plain maroon, so I've run the full gamut in one train...  Liveries on auto trailers overlapped quite a bit and there were some odd ones in the early 50s, leftover wartime brown, post war and 1948 BR versions of choc/cream, and an unofficial single lined version of the crimson on some old Clifton Downs trailers, not that the blood/custard was exactly official.

 

In practice I will be running the new Hawksworth as a 2 car set with the maroon A30, and the other blood/custard A30 is earmarked for cutting about to make an A27. I quite happily run parcels stock in crimson, blood/custard, plain maroon, and lined maroon and am on the lookout for a suitable malachite green one, and some of my freight stock is in post war GW or LMS liveries, fairly heavily weathered.  Locos, all four of them, range from 4162, a Barry allocated loco delivered new in early 1948 unlined green with GW-style 'British Railways' to 6604, to be renumbered 6601 as a Tondu engine when I get around to it, in 1958 lined green ferret and dartboard.  I painted and lined this loco myself many years ago before Mainline had brought out their lined green version, and am loth to alter it; I have no idea what liveries 6601 carried.  6422 and 7739, also to be renumbered, are in cycling lion plain black and will remain so, but I'd like a red backed numberplate loco as well as a hankering for one of the ones that Caerphilly Works turned out with painted numbers.

 

The period chosen is deliberate to allow for a bit of variation in liveries, and future locos may well include GW austerity black, at least one brown wartime coach, and at the moment I have no plain crimson passenger vehicles.  I am not too bothered by locos or coaches that might be carrying incorrect liveries unless I am aware of it, when I try to get things right!  BR 1958 choc/cream is represented by 80969, a Perseverance inspection saloon which mostly lives on a shelf.  Corporate identity blue, double arrows or post '65 information panels on freight stock is a definite no no.

 

It is very gratifying that people take an interest in my feeble efforts when there are proper good models like Canada Street or Little Bytham (other seriously good layouts are available) to be inspired by, so thank you for the input Chrisf, and keep it coming!!!

Edited February 2, 2017 by The Johnster

[RJS1977]

 

 

It has also been apparent for some time that (at least until Hornby's own price increases kick in) Bachmann coaches are more expensive. Hornby's significantly cheaper autocoach is easily obtainable even if it's not currently in production. However, once you add in the cost of the detailing kit, flush glazing and close coupler units required to bring it up to a comparable standard, it won't be all that much cheaper.

 

John

 

But you don't *have* to buy all those extras. If you just want an autocoach and aren't too fussy about all the extra details (I have a general rule that I don't bother with detail I need my glasses on to see!) then the Hornby one wins hands down on cost.

[The Johnster]

But you don't *have* to buy all those extras. If you just want an autocoach and aren't too fussy about all the extra details (I have a general rule that I don't bother with detail I need my glasses on to see!) then the Hornby one wins hands down on cost.

 

Exactly.  I don't know much about production costs except that they have to be passed to the consumer, but I would have thought that the strength of someone like Dart Castings, who make a detailing kit for auto trailers in general though it was originally intended for the Airfix A30, is in their ability to market such items at a reasonable and competitive price, probably less than the increase in cost for Airfix or their successors and Bachmann in the case of the A38 had they made these items and attached them to the model, or included them in the box for you to attach yourself.  The Baccy A38 comes with a commendable amount of detail in the cab, pre-painted, and a bag'o'bits to attach if you want, which has probably added £20 to the retail cost (I still think it's about £10 overpriced, mind).

 

In the olden days, when everything was in black and white coz colour hadn't been invented and you could go on a world cruise for sixpence (and still have change), we called this sort of thing 'superdetailing', a term that has gone out of fashion in a world where everybody demands that all models should be superdetailed to the nth degree.  It was a good term, and an acceptance that rtr models, even very good ones, would never be perfect and could always be improved by a bit of work by their owners.  I am by and large happy with an rtr model with all sorts of defects and mistakes on it as long as it is reasoably dimensionally accurate.  I am not a brilliant modeller, but I can cope with re-livery, renumbering, carving off moulded handrails and replacing them with wire, and that sort of tidying up, but there is nothing you can do about a model that is the wrong height, length, width, has the boiler set wrong etc (says the man who is about to chop an Airfix A30 into and A27 and fit it with Collett 7' bogies).

 

I am not bemoaning the modern trend to increased levels of details in rtr models, far from it, but the recent debate about what are very small deficiencies in some Oxford Rail products seems to me a bit millennial and entitled.  I like your rule about not worrying about things you can't see without glasses; my eyesight is the other way around and I have to take my glasses off to see detail!  But if you want an A38 and can't be bothered making one, it doesn't matter how much the Airfix/Dapol/Hornby A30 beats it on cost...

Edited February 3, 2017 by The Johnster

[Budgie]

It has also been apparent for some time that (at least until Hornby's own price increases kick in) Bachmann coaches are more expensive. Hornby's significantly cheaper autocoach is easily obtainable even if it's not currently in production. However, once you add in the cost of the detailing kit, flush glazing and close coupler units required to bring it up to a comparable standard, it won't be all that much cheaper.

It is in the list of things that are new for 2017. It's due in Summer, and the list price is 1p shy of £33.

Edited February 7, 2017 by Budgie

[The Johnster]

I might be persuaded to buy one of the Hornby A30s or whatever it actually is, as the number is different from the ancient Airfix one I already have, and it's good for the money.  Are those turned brass buffers I see?  I can then retire one of my pair of Airfix ones to convert to A27, and the crimson/cream one is proving a bit of a bad runner and derailer so that is the chassis for binning if the issue is anything more complex than back to back.  It has been cut about a bit over the years for scale couplings and their eventual re-replacement with t/ls, and I suspect a bogie is not swinging as it should but can see nothing obviously wrong.  That should be my lot for rtr and cut'n'shut auto trailers, and with the layout a bit nearer a sort of completion I can start thinking about kits.  Now, where did I see someone doing a resin body for a diagram N trailer, which I know worked around Bridgend in the 50s...

 

And I reckon an A9 matchboarded one (Llantrisant had some) is within my capacity to scratchbuild, but that is very much at the bottom of the pending tray, especially as it would need a Llantrisant 14xx to operate with; my new loco budget for now is reserved for Baccy 4575 and 94xx when they appear, and the 4575 doesn't look too far off.

 

Having had the Baccy A38 for over a week now, I am happy I bought it; as I thought it would, the wallet is recovering with therapy and counselling and the pain is diminishing.  It is a very satisfying thing to own, with a good feel of quality to it, perhaps enhanced by the weight which also makes for a bit of proper heft and railwaylike momentum in running.  The lined maroon livery is very convincing, as is the flush glazing, all of which helps the illusion that one is looking at a real railway.  I regard my railway as no less real for being 1:76 scale and imaginary, and the service it provides to it's community, also imaginary, no less real either; it is just smaller than some real railways and the village of Cwmdimbath a little less corpereal than some real villages.

[tomparryharry]

I might be persuaded to buy one of the Hornby A30s or whatever it actually is, as the number is different from the ancient Airfix one I already have, and it's good for the money.  Are those turned brass buffers I see?  I can then retire one of my pair of Airfix ones to convert to A27, and the crimson/cream one is proving a bit of a bad runner and derailer so that is the chassis for binning if the issue is anything more complex than back to back.  It has been cut about a bit over the years for scale couplings and their eventual re-replacement with t/ls, and I suspect a bogie is not swinging as it should but can see nothing obviously wrong.  That should be my lot for rtr and cut'n'shut auto trailers, and with the layout a bit nearer a sort of completion I can start thinking about kits.  Now, where did I see someone doing a resin body for a diagram N trailer, which I know worked around Bridgend in the 50s...

 

And I reckon an A9 matchboarded one (Llantrisant had some) is within my capacity to scratchbuild, but that is very much at the bottom of the pending tray, especially as it would need a Llantrisant 14xx to operate with; my new loco budget for now is reserved for Baccy 4575 and 94xx when they appear, and the 4575 doesn't look too far off.

 

Having had the Baccy A38 for over a week now, I am happy I bought it; as I thought it would, the wallet is recovering with therapy and counselling and the pain is diminishing.  It is a very satisfying thing to own, with a good feel of quality to it, perhaps enhanced by the weight which also makes for a bit of proper heft and railwaylike momentum in running.  The lined maroon livery is very convincing, as is the flush glazing, all of which helps the illusion that one is looking at a real railway.  I regard my railway as no less real for being 1:76 scale and imaginary, and the service it provides to it's community, also imaginary, no less real either; it is just smaller than some real railways and the village of Cwmdimbath a little less corpereal than some real villages.

4871 is the Llantrisant loco you seek, and you probably know that already. A model which I await eagerly. I'd also like to scratchbuild an A9 car. I might get around to it. Just need to finish this rebuilt A class....

 

Ian

[Ian Hargrave]

4871 is the Llantrisant loco you seek, and you probably know that already. A model which I await eagerly. I'd also like to scratchbuild an A9 car. I might get around to it. Just need to finish this rebuilt A class....Ian

On the subject of the matchboard autocoach,I seem to remember one worked the Pontypridd-Ynysybwl branch....or is my memory at fault ?

[The Johnster]

On the subject of the matchboard autocoach,I seem to remember one worked the Pontypridd-Ynysybwl branch....or is my memory at fault ?

 

Your memory is fine, Ian, John Lewis' 'Great Western Auto Trailers part 1' has an R C Riley photo of 5421 propelling a diagram Z matchboard trailer into Pontypridd in July 1952; the train is stated to be the 5.08pm from Old Ynysybwl on page 151, and on page 164 is an undated shot by I L Wright of an A9 at Old Ynysybwl with what looks to be a 14xx.  On page 152 is a very fine R C Riley photo of what could easily be the same train as the one on page 151; this is stated to be the last day of service on the branch, 26th July 1952, with the comment that matchboarded trailers seem to have been preferred for this service for some reason.  It is possible that it was a clearance issue, but I have no idea if this was the case.

Edited February 13, 2017 by The Johnster

[The Johnster]

4871 is the Llantrisant loco you seek, and you probably know that already. A model which I await eagerly. I'd also like to scratchbuild an A9 car. I might get around to it. Just need to finish this rebuilt A class....

 

Ian

1471 (for my period) or 1421, which I have seen photos of on the Cowbridge branch.  Looks like '21 was the Cowbridge engine and '71 the Penygraig; I doubt if any 2 branches anywhere in the world from the same main line junction had such different termini!  There is also a shot in John Lewis' 'Great Western Auto Trailers part 1' on page 156, credited to W H G Boot and dated July 1950, of 5409 with trailer 106, an A6, dated July 1950, looking as if it is heading for Cowbridge from the down bay at Llantrisant.  AFAIK 64xx were never allocated to Llantrisant and 5409 in this shot carries an 86A shedplate, Ebbw Jc I believe in 1950.  I assume the 'A' shed would be the supply for spare locos if you were short for any reason...

 

I have limited funds and a Hattons 14xx must take it's place in the queue; Tondu engines such as 4575 and 94xx have to be budgeted for first, but I would love a Llantrisant 14xx with a matchboard trailer, and have invented a working that would be the reverse of the Bridgend-Gilfach Goch service that reversed at Hendreforgan; mine would be a Llantrisant-Cwmdimabath reversing at Brynmenyn or Blackmill; 1471 is the obvious choice as one imagines the proximity of all those big nasty mountains would have scared 1421 to death...

[Ian Hargrave]

Your memory is fine, Ian, John Lewis' 'Great Western Auto Trailers part 1' has an R C Riley photo of 5421 propelling a diagram Z matchboard trailer into Pontypridd in July 1952; the train is stated to be the 5.08pm from Old Ynysybwl on page 151, and on page 164 is an undated shot by I L Wright of an A9 at Old Ynysybwl with what looks to be a 14xx.  On page 152 is a very fine R C Riley photo of what could easily be the same train as the one on page 151; this is stated to be the last day of service on the branch, 26th July 1952, with the comment that matchboarded trailers seem to have been preferred for this service for some reason.  It is possible that it was a clearance issue, but I have no idea if this was the case.

Many thanks for that.It is a purely visual snapshot image that somehow or other sticks in the mind viewed from a passing Merthyr train at the North bay end of Ponty station. I do not recall the motive power and neither can I recall a 48/14XX in the area.Panniers seemed to rule the lines until 1958 on auto trains.Any further information on this would be gratefully received.

[The Johnster]

Auto trains in the Cardiff District worked until 1960 at least, with locos shedded at Abercynon, Canton, Merthyr, Cathays, Llantrisant, Tondu, and Barry.  Abercynon was responsible for the services from Ponty to Ynysybwl, the P.C.& N service to Machen via Caerphilly, Abercynon-Aberdare, and the (in)famous St Fagan's Pullman, which ran two trips a day to Cardiff Clarence Road via the Barry Railway main line to St Fagan's and then the South Wales main line calling at Ely, and filled in with a couple of trips from Clarence Road to Penarth; every photo I have seen of this train show 6438.  The daily mileage of this working probably exceeded more than a few main line jobs!  Canton ran the Cardiff-Newport shuttle which called at Marshfield, 6412 was a regular on this but I recall 14xx as well. Merthyr was responsible for services from High Street to Ponsticill and Aberdare, and Cathays for the Bute Road-Maindy and Coryton trains.  Llantrisant took on the Penygraig and Cowbridge branches with 1471 and 1421 respectively and a magnificent collection of matchboarded, clerestrory and other oddball trailers, Tondu handled the Porthcawl, Abergwynfi, Blaengarw, Ogmore Vale, and Gilfach Goch trains, the latter reversing at Hendreforgan where the junction faced Llantrisant. Barry had auto services to Clarence Road via the Taff Vale route through Sully and Penarth.

 

Locos were 14xx at Llantrisant and Canton, 54xx at Abercynon and Merthyr, 64xx everywhere but AFAIK Llantrisant, and 4575 from 1950 at Cathays, Barry, and Tondu.  In earlier days, Metro tanks and 517s were common as well.  The 64xx and the auto fitting of 4575s were specifically designed for the South Wales work, where gradients and the requirement for 3 or 4 coach trains on the Corytons and in the Tondu valleys had proved a bit much for the 4-coupled engines and the new 54xx.

 

The trailers were just about every type imaginable, (with Llantrisant having a particularly eclectic collection), from No 1, built in 1903, to Hawksworth A38 and the retro fitted A43 and A44 compartment types with a single end window in the driving comparment; these seem to have been common on the Coryton and Porthcawl branches.  When the services were either terminated or taken over by dmus, the locos and the newer trailers were transferred to the Plymouth area, and some made it from there to Gloucester to work the Chalford service that was the last auto in 1964.

 

This is a very rough and simplified overview of a subject that could probably fill a book (this is not an offer to write one!), but auto trains, referred to by the obsolete title of 'rail motor' in the public and working timetables, were every bit as much a part of the South Wales scene in steam days, up to 1962 on the Porthcawl branch, as 0-6-2 tanks, sheep, and 'all down goods and mineral trains stop here to pin down brakes'.

 

Several of the 64xx and 4575s survive in preservation after spells in Barry scrapyard.

Edited February 13, 2017 by The Johnster

[chrisf]

One of my favourite subjects!

 

Also auto-worked between 1953 and 1958 were branch trains between Porth and Maerdy.  These were powered by 4575 tanks, based at Cathays but outstationed at Ferndale.  Most published photos of this service show pairs of compartment trailers.  The service on the Senghenydd branch was also maintained by auto trains, these being Cathays sets that also worked to Coryton in the course of their day's work.  I think you will find that Canton had no involvement with auto work after the timetable reconstruction of September 1953.

 

An oddity of the auto workings from Abercynon shed was that the Pontypridd - Machen workings had the loco at the south end whereas those to Ynysybwl and the St Fagans Pullman had it at the north end. 

 

Trailers did get switched around between routes from time to time, probably because of cleaning and maintenance requirements.

 

Chris

[Budgie]

This is a very rough and simplified overview of a subject that could probably fill a book (this is not an offer to write one!), but auto trains, referred to by the obsolete title of 'rail motor' in the public and working timetables, were every bit as much a part of the South Wales scene in steam days, up to 1962 on the Porthcawl branch, as 0-6-2 tanks, sheep, and 'all down goods and mineral trains stop here to pin down brakes'.

 

John Lewis has already written a book (in two volumes) on the autocoaches, which also contains some information on the locomotives that operated with them.