Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench

[Mikkel]

I see the second one continues the myth by stating that the 2361 class was visibly similar but with outside frames.....they were significantly different!

 

Tony

 

Yes, I've always fancied the 2361s. In fairness to the excellent Warwickshire Railways site, Robert Ferris seems to have the info right in this lovely photo: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrrj1480.htm

 

 

Hi Mikkel

 

2347, in the first image, received the S4 boiler in 5/04 so would have still been red at that time.  The tender shown could have been a swap applied after that as Dean Goods originally came out with ex Armstrong Goods tenders.  You can see that 2347 has the narrower footplate as it is narrower than the later build tender footplate.  The weathering on the loco is interesting which shows that Edwardian goods engines were not always immaculate in service.

 

The second image show 2579 which is a much later engine and the last but one to be built.  It has the wider footplate (same width as the tender).  This was built with an S2 boiler and received another S2 (as shown) in 6/09 and an S4 as late as 4/14.  The date of the first boiler change suggests it is in the black frame livery in the picture.  However, it has the dome on the front ring (S2) which I find less appealing.

 

Peter

 

Thanks very much Peter for pointing out these details. The tender swops makes me wonder if some locos ran with black-framed tenders and red-framed locos at this time!

 

I'm actually a bit tempted to do a model with a dome on the front ring. I agree it looks less balanced, but it's a bit different and quaint to my eyes. 

[Donw]

I see the second one continues the myth by stating that the 2361 class was visibly similar but with outside frames.....they were significantly different!

 

Tony

 

Not necessarily so to a layman both had six wheels and a chimney after all !

Don

[Mikkel]

I've painted my first 7mm figure. Meet George, LB&SCR fireman and unknown son of Marty Feldman and Marilyn Monroe. Must practice eyes more   

 

 

 

I’m uncertain about the colour of the jacket. As I understand it, the basic uniform colour was dark blue, but 1900s photos show jackets lighter than trousers on footplate men. As a GWR man I would assume that the options for this period are either white or light blue - or grey as a result of everyday wear. Not sure about the LB&SCR though. It’s not too late to change as I haven’t varnished it yet.

 

 

Edited December 17, 2016 by Mikkel

[Trains&armour]

Not bad, not bad at all. Perhaps some more shading on the jacket? And an edge of bare metal for the shovel.

[Mikkel]

Thanks Sired.

 

Yes good point about the shading, that hasn't come out as I hoped. I did paint the first coat darker, and then tried to lightly brush a lighter colour on top. But it didn't really work, I think I must use a greater contrast between the first and second coat next time. The joins and mould lines are also rather visible in the close-ups, I thought I had removed them!

 

Anyway, I enjoyed painting it. The 7mm stock still gives me a shock when I look at it, but the figures seem friendly enough    

[Donw]

Looks nice Mikkel one things about eyes is how little of the white shows in most cases. When a lot of the white is visible the person can look a bit manic. Only when the eyes are looking to either side (the same side for both eyes)  does much white show. Photos of crowds are useful as they usually do not know they are being photographed.

 

Don 

[K14]

I’m uncertain about the colour of the jacket. As I understand it, the basic uniform colour was dark blue, but 1900s photos show jackets lighter than trousers on footplate men. As a GWR man I would assume that the options for this period are either white or light blue - or grey as a result of everyday wear. Not sure about the LB&SCR though. It’s not too late to change as I haven’t varnished it yet.

Pre-1960s washers were pretty hard on colours as they tended to use either carbolic or soda crystals (my Gran used a gas-powered 'copper' right up to her passing in 1977, & as I recall it had two settings - stone cold or boil); a boil wash using soda would leach blue dye very quickly... it'll even strip enamel paint!

 

Also, photo emulsions from that era are notorious for not only darkening reds, but lightening blues too.

 

The chap in the bowler in this shot of the 'Klondyke Writers' at Swindon in 1902 has blue eyes...

 

 

...that or he's possessed.

 

Pete.

[Mikkel]

Looks nice Mikkel one things about eyes is how little of the white shows in most cases. When a lot of the white is visible the person can look a bit manic. Only when the eyes are looking to either side (the same side for both eyes)  does much white show. Photos of crowds are useful as they usually do not know they are being photographed.

 

Don 

 

Manic, yes that is just the word I was looking for   Thanks for the tip Don, I will try to make the eyes narrower with less white on the driver, who is next in line. On my 4mm figures I never actually paint the eyes anymore, preferring instead to just indicate them with a darker shade, but I guess it wouldn't work for 7mm. 

 

 

Pre-1960s washers were pretty hard on colours as they tended to use either carbolic or soda crystals (my Gran used a gas-powered 'copper' right up to her passing in 1977, & as I recall it had two settings - stone cold or boil); a boil wash using soda would leach blue dye very quickly... it'll even strip enamel paint!

 

Also, photo emulsions from that era are notorious for not only darkening reds, but lightening blues too.

 

The chap in the bowler in this shot of the 'Klondyke Writers' at Swindon in 1902 has blue eyes...

 

...that or he's possessed.

 

Pete.

 

What a great picture, thanks for sharing that Pete! My fireman's clothes are probably a little too colourful and clean. In fact I've noticed that many prof. figure painters also tend to do that - I suppose because the customers prefer it! I'll see if I can tone him down a bit.

 

I've been looking at videos, I like this one - although it's a larger scale:

 

 

Edit: Argh, wrong video, should be the right one now.

Edited December 17, 2016 by Mikkel

[Mikkel]

PS: The "Klondyke Writers", I wonder why they were called that? Sign writers, I suppose, but why Klondyke? Intriguing.  

[Northroader]

I'm never too sure when the working attire became the standard cotton twill (jeans) material with the universal adoption of either boiler suits or bib and brace overalls with separate jackets. I would think around WW1? The men in the photo from 1902 are workmen, but their clothing looks more like a rough tweed sort of material. In the 50s I took my boilersuits home and mum boiled them, and they gradually went from dark navy to sky blue, so it depended on how long you had them. By then there were schemes in the works to rotate overalls which were drycleaned and stayed dark blue, but I would think pre ww2 most overalls in use did fade.

Edit: just to add Klondike was an area in Swindon works, I think the yard at the west end beyond A shop, although I could be wrong about the location, presume the time it was set up was coincidental with the gold rush?

Edited December 17, 2016 by Northroader

[Mikkel]

Thanks Northroader - so on the one hand we have the tendency of clothes to fade more easily during the earlier years, but on the other hand we also have the Victorian and Edwardian emphasis on style and keeping up appearances. So a slightly faded look, but not sloppy (at the beginning of the shift, at least!).

 

I've never thought of overalls as being introduced already at WW1 - but I don't really know.

 

Edit: just to add Klondike was an area in Swindon works, I think the yard at the west end beyond A shop, although I could be wrong about the location, presume the time it was set up was coincidental with the gold rush?

 

That set me searching the internet, and I found this rather nice conversation, where a group of old Swindon hands discuss "Klondike":

 

From 18.00-22.00 here: http://sounds.bl.uk/Accents-and-dialects/BBC-Voices/021M-C1190X0034XX-0501V0

 

Pure gold!

Edited December 17, 2016 by Mikkel

[micklner]

 

 

Thanks Northroader - so on the one hand we have the tendency of clothes to fade more easily during the earlier years, but on the other hand we also have the Victorian and Edwardian emphasis on style and keeping up appearances. So a slightly faded look, but not sloppy (at the beginning of the shift, at least!).

 

I've never thought of overalls as being introduced already at WW1 - but I don't really know.

 

 

That set me searching the internet, and I found this rather nice conversation, where a group of old Swindon hands discuss "Klondike":

 

From 18.00-22.00 here: http://sounds.bl.uk/Accents-and-dialects/BBC-Voices/021M-C1190X0034XX-0501V0

 

Pure gold!

 

I would imagine that they were wearing their Sunday best for the photo ?

 

A favourite photo from 1938 , there lots of photos of Railwayman wearing similar around WW1 period.

 

 

 

 

 

[Northroader]

On this shot, the fireman and driver on the left are wearing overalls of the denim type material, most post ww1 shots show traincrew like this, next guy is presumably footplate inspector, so not having a uniform, but clutching a heavy issue overcoat, and the guard? is in a heavy woollen material uniform, carrying over from Victorian standards.

[raymw]

Aidan Campbell has some good instructions on painting figures (and other stuff) on his web site. http://www.aidan-campbell.co.uk/PDFs/guide%20to%20figure%20painting.pdf

[Mikkel]

A favourite photo from 1938 , there lots of photos of Railwayman wearing similar around WW1 period.

 

On this shot, the fireman and driver on the left are wearing overalls of the denim type material, most post ww1 shots show traincrew like this, next guy is presumably footplate inspector, so not having a uniform, but clutching a heavy issue overcoat, and the guard? is in a heavy woollen material uniform, carrying over from Victorian standards.

 

Good to see that photo in a larger version. Looks like the earlier habit of footplate crew wearing their own headwear - if they liked - continued after grouping?

 

 

Aidan Campbell has some good instructions on painting figures (and other stuff) on his web site. http://www.aidan-campbell.co.uk/PDFs/guide%20to%20figure%20painting.pdf

 

I like the opening quote: “As with all model work, painting believable figures is not about using the correct colours, but using whatever colours actually look correct.”

 

 

This page - which is a worth a look in any case if you missed it before – has a number of views of footplatemen at various times, with the earlier photos towards the end: http://thebrightonmotivepowerdepots.yolasite.com/brighton-loco-men.php. It suggests widely varying shades of clothing, including the earlier shots towards the end. I suppose the main message coming out of them is that more or less any shade (of blue) goes!

Edited December 18, 2016 by Mikkel

[MikeOxon]

 

Well now that you mention it, I took my Mainline Dean Goods apart some time ago to see what backdating the body might entail. The dis-assembly needs to be done in a certain sequence, so I took these shots. Perhaps of use to someone at some point:

 

I have been away from home since early November, so am only just catching up on posts made since then. 

 

Like you, i have often considered backdating the Mainline Dean Goods.  I have been put off by the need to hack at the large internal lump of metal, which is 'squared' to fit inside the Belpaire firebox profile. 

 

There are a few examples of Belpaire fireboxes on both the Dean Goods and the Stella (for which I have made a conversion) which pre-date the change from red to black frames but even 1901 is really too 'modern' for me, so I shall have to address the issue some time. 

[Dave John]

The Brighton link is fantastic. 

 

I too enjoy painting figures, so I'm taking notes. The eyes might be slightly overlarge, but the moustache is spot on. 

[drduncan]

 

Like you, i have often considered backdating the Mainline Dean Goods.  I have been put off by the need to hack at the large internal lump of metal, which is 'squared' to fit inside the Belpaire firebox profile. 

 

Hi Mike,

On my Dean Goods, I removed the metal weight and replaced it with lead. If you remove the cab the weight pulls out. You can also get an Armstrong style smokebox front to replace the one on the model from Quarryscapes of this parish.

Regards

Duncan

[Mikkel]

I have been put off by the need to hack at the large internal lump of metal, which is 'squared' to fit inside the Belpaire firebox profile.

 

Hi Mike,

On my Dean Goods, I removed the metal weight and replaced it with lead. If you remove the cab the weight pulls out. You can also get an Armstrong style smokebox front to replace the one on the model from Quarryscapes of this parish.

Regards

Duncan

 

I was thinking of using liquid lead - although I should probably experiment first to avoid a boiler explosion!

 

Here is one of the earlier smokebox fronts from Quarryscapes - posted before but not in this thread I think.

 

 

 

My Dean Goods project has been postponed until the Oxford Rail chassis is available for inspection (Hattons now tell me it will be January/February). No worries, lots of other projects to work on!

 

[Mikkel]

The Brighton link is fantastic. 

 

I too enjoy painting figures, so I'm taking notes. The eyes might be slightly overlarge, but the moustache is spot on. 

 

I agree, painting figures can be very therapeutic I think. Those eyes are so tricky though! I can't claim credit for the moustache, it's part of the moulding on Andrew's figure.

 

I like adding facial hair to figures though (what a weird thing to say!   ) - it completely transforms them.

 

 

Edited December 19, 2016 by Mikkel

[Welchester]

Good to see that photo in a larger version. Looks like the earlier habit of footplate crew wearing their own headwear - if they liked - continued after grouping?

 

My suspicion is that caps were easily lost, but not easily (or cheaply) replaced, hence the motley array of headware. In a later period, weren't service berets popular after WW2/National Service?

[Mikkel]

My suspicion is that caps were easily lost, but not easily (or cheaply) replaced, hence the motley array of headware. In a later period, weren't service berets popular after WW2/National Service?

 

Great explanation! I love what this says about human organisation. Even the great railway companies - masters of planning - couldn't beat caps going astray.

 

Mind you, Driver P. Appledore of Farthing wears a bowler simply because that's how he likes it, period! 

 

[Buhar]

And bowlers at that time were as close as you got to PPE headgear.

[DonB]

In 1930 the Bowler was the "Sunday best" hat for any self-respecting Black Countryman,

My Father bought a new Bowler to go to Wembley for the WBA vs B'ham Cup final (April '31).

 

WBA won 2-1, At the final whistle he threw his hat in the air, and never saw it again!

[Mikkel]

All this talk of bowlers is soothing for the otherwise uptight and generally unpleasant Mr Bull of Farthing, who has a certain passion for this type of headwear. Originally a BR station master from the Monty's range, he has had his cap replaced with bits from the sparebox to make a bowler. A bit of putty made his moustache.
 
 
 
 
Mr Bull's rising spirits are however soon dampened as he remembers that 'tis the season of humbug. I have certain sympathies for that, but then again... Merry christmas everyone! 

Edited December 24, 2016 by Mikkel