Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench

[hayfield]

Like the idea of joining both layouts together, very clever

[Quarryscapes]

I love the sleepers being embedded - what is the material they are embedded in? 

[Mikkel]

Like the idea of joining both layouts together, very clever

 

Thanks, the idea is certainly growing on me. Below is a sketch of how it would fit together. It would involve a reversal of the entry to the sidings, and thus some more track laying and possibly a bit more pointwork. Not that I will be able to match your excellent points though!

 

 

 

 

I love the sleepers being embedded - what is the material they are embedded in? 

 

Good old Polyfilla. I wrote a description of it here: 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/75/entry-8992-laying-track-on-the-depot/

 

But beware:  When I first used this method on my goods depot layout, I used a ready-made supersmooth Polyfilla product. This had the advantage of shrinking back slightly when dry, leaving the sleepers just a little proud of the ground.  I liked the effect and so tried it again for my current sidings layout. However the formula seems to have changed. It is now a much lighter product, does not shrink back, and is a little *too* fine my liking. I've therefore had to roughen up the ground texture.

 

Next time I think I'll try the DAS method, á la Chris Nevard. It may be more time consuming but seems to allow better scope for adding and varying texture around the track. Mine is probably a bit too clean and even.

[hayfield]

Thanks, the idea is certainly growing on me.

 

Not that I will be able to match your excellent points though!

 

 

 

Looking at what you do with everything else, I can see you having no problems what so ever in building trackwork

 

 

 

 

[Mikkel]

Shall we have a "Stash" competition for the new year Mikkel ?

 

Ready, set, go! I decided to get a sneaky early start on bgman's challenge by knocking together a wagon kit today.

 

 

But you all need them too - any Edwardian goods yard, anywhere, there will be one ...

Mindful of Compound's point that an MR D299 is a must for any pregrouping goods yard, I dug out my kit for one of those. 

 

 

Mine seems to be an elderly version of the kit,  with some rather bleak looking sides and floor:

 

 

So I've scribed on some planking detail, not my favourite pastime.

 

 

For the rest of the build I followed Compound's excellent description, including removal of the no. and build plates - prototype photos show them positioned in another place.

 

 

Below is the current state of affairs. Looks like one of the rings for the buffer housing has come loose, and some filler is needed here and there 

 

Edited January 1, 2017 by Mikkel

[bgman]

Oy! You were quick outa the blocks ! 

 

There's planning, then breakfast followed by lunch and dinner, not to mention the Alkaline Salsa !!! 

 

Oh! Did I mention I've got my drawers stuck ?   I guess i'll have to start something now.....humph !

 

Happy New Year to you and your family Mikkel 

[Compound2632]

 

Ready, set, go! I decided to get a sneaky early start on bgman's challenge by knocking together a wagon kit today.

 

Mindful of Compound's point that an MR D299 is a must for any pregrouping goods yard, I dug out my kit for one of those. 

 

 

That looks like a very promising start to the new year! Perhaps by the end of 2017 you'll have modelled the Derby - Farthing through coach - a nice red clerestory brake composite? (The working was via Cheltenham and the M&SWJR of course.)

 

With Slaters and also Parkside kits that have a plastic ring representing the end of the buffer guide, I've always poked the buffer shank through the ring first and then put a dab of MekPak in the guide and pushed the buffer home - that way there's less chance of losing the ring and everything ends up well-aligned. But I've not often bothered with sprung buffers. I suppose once the joint between guide and ring has set you could pull the metal buffer out and drill out for a sprung one.

 

Happy New Year's modelling  Mikkel!

Edited January 1, 2017 by Compound2632

[Mikkel]

Oy! You were quick outa the blocks ! 

 

There's planning, then breakfast followed by lunch and dinner, not to mention the Alkaline Salsa !!! 

 

Oh! Did I mention I've got my drawers stuck ?   I guess i'll have to start something now.....humph !

 

Happy New Year to you and your family Mikkel 

 

Hehe, not to worry Grahame, I was only jesting - a hobby shouldn't be a chore or a race. Plus, one must stick with ones priorities, even if it is Alkaline Salsa :-)

 

 

That looks like a very promising start to the new year! Perhaps by the end of 2017 you'll have modelled the Derby - Farthing through coach - a nice red clerestory brake composite? (The working was via Cheltenham and the M&SWJR of course.)

 

With Slaters and also Parkside kits that have a plastic ring representing the end of the buffer guide, I've always poked the buffer shank through the ring first and then put a dab of MekPak in the guide and pushed the buffer home - that way there's less chance of losing the ring and everything ends up well-aligned. But I've not often bothered with sprung buffers. I suppose once the joint between guide and ring has set you could pull the metal buffer out and drill out for a sprung one.

 

Happy New Year's modelling  Mikkel!

 

Hmm, a Midland clerestory does sound attractive. 51L also do those nice MR Clayton carriages that I've always fancied, some of which ran on the MSWJR if I remember correctly. I had better build some GWR ones first though! Thanks for the tip about the buffer plastic rings, good idea. 

 

It's a nice enough kit and it is square and rolls well. Still, as you describe in your thread, the assembly of the floor, solebars etc doesn't seem to work out right if you build it as designed/described. So various workarounds and patching up is needed. A job for tomorrow!

Edited January 1, 2017 by Mikkel

[Mikkel]

Progress on the wagon front. The MR D299 is in primer and ready for painting.
 



I’ve used liquid lead as usual. Funny how weight makes a wagon feel much more like an actual piece of rolling stock, rather than just bits of plastic.




The MR transfer sheet I have is from Fox, and it doesn’t provide for the number plates so I’ll simply print the plates on paper. I found a photo of another MR wagon on the web, cropped out the numberplate and photoshopped it (enlarged here, therefore blurred). The number is not correct for a D299 so it needs more work. Does anyone happen to have the running numbers to hand? A number beginning 4197 would be convenient   




Meanwhile I’ve started on a bog standard GWR Iron Mink from ABS – my second of these. The other one was modified to grease axle boxes but I’ll leave the oil ones on this kit, as both types could be seen during my period.




This is an old-school kit and there is no floor, roof or wheels included, but the castings aren’t bad considering the age of the kit.

 

[bgman]

Erm....are you running with the baton ?

I've got my spikes stuck in the starting blocks !

 

Nevertheless, looking fine so far matey

 

L.Azy

[Mikkel]

It won't last - sooner or later work will spin out of control again    

 

Meanwhile I'm eager to extend my wagon fleet for the sidings. And line up a couple of long goods trains just because they look nice 

[Brinkly]

Your van has turned out well Mikkel. I do agree, ABS kits, despite there age, aren't too bad.

 

I enjoy working with white metal, a decent kit can be built quite quickly.

 

Kind regards,

 

Nick.

[Mikkel]

I enjoy working with white metal, a decent kit can be built quite quickly.

 

I agree Nick, although I suppose it will be looked upon as a very ancient medium within a few years.

 

Meanwhile, a little video I did once - tongue in cheek:

 

[Compound2632]

The MR transfer sheet I have is from Fox, and it doesn’t provide for the number plates so I’ll simply print the plates on paper. I found a photo of another MR wagon on the web, cropped out the numberplate and photoshopped it (enlarged here, therefore blurred). The number is not correct for a D299 so it needs more work. Does anyone happen to have the running numbers to hand? A number beginning 4197 would be convenient   

 

 

 

See PM for the relevant page from Midland Wagons - this lists 54 numbers (none meeting your criterion) - that's 0.087% of the total. Basically, if you pick any number at random between 1 and 124,000 you've a 50% chance of choosing a D299 number - unless you are unlucky enough to chose a number known to have belonged to a wagon of a different diagram. Numbers above 60,000 are even more likely to be correct - many of these wagons were built as additions to stock (or as replacements of bought up dumb-buffered PO wagons which would have been numbered as additions to stock). There's some correlation between number and date- e.g. No. 10,000 was a D351 (end door version of D299) wagon of 1890, and that was about the total wagon stock then. So a number close to a known D299 number is also very likely to be right if not known otherwise. I remember once when laid up with a bad cold trying to construct a rough list based on known numbers and the build sequence based on the Lot Book but I recovered rather quickly...

 

I have criticised the shape of the Fox "M" preferring the HMRS version.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Compound2632

[Mikkel]

Thanks Compound, that is very useful. I see there is a 41468, I can work with that.

 

I found this today, a nice shot of four D299s: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrms1713a.htm

 

It is quite amazing to think that 62.000 wagons to one drawing was built in such a relatively short span of years (1882-1899?). I wonder if there as anything in particular in the Midland's history to prompt this, or if it was just an expression of the general trend in railways and manufacturing during those years. 

[Compound2632]

Thanks Compound, that is very useful. I see there is a 41468, I can work with that.

 

I found this today, a nice shot of four D299s: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrms1713a.htm

 

It is quite amazing to think that 62.000 wagons to one drawing was built in such a relatively short span of years (1882-1899?). I wonder if there as anything in particular in the Midland's history to prompt this, or if it was just an expression of the general trend in railways and manufacturing during those years. 

 

According to Midland Wagons, between 1882 and 1895, the Midland purchased 66,000 private owner wagons many of which were quickly withdrawn - 21,260 were in stock on 31 December 1894. The photos show decrepit 4-plank dumb-buffered vehicles with wooden brake blocks. The D299 wagons have bottom doors so were clearly intended for coal traffic as well as general merchandise and there are plenty of photos of them loaded with coal. However, their nominal replacements, LMS D1666 and D1667, of which 62,000 were built in an even shorter space of time - 1923-1930 - were definitely goods rather than mineral wagons. And of course the number of PO coal wagons running over the Midland soon bounced back - I think part of the idea was to encourage the private owners to replace their outmoded wagons with ones of more modern spec. (I believe I've seen this in print...)

 

But of course this was a period of expansion for the railways, notwithstanding the depression of the late 1880s. Concurrently with the D299 build, the Midland built or bought 695 0-6-0 goods engines - one for every 86 D299 wagons. (Now there's a target...) To adapt 1 Sam 18:7: "Johnson has built his thousands and Clayton his ten thousands".

[PhilJ W]

I agree Nick, although I suppose it will be looked upon as a very ancient medium within a few years.

 

Meanwhile, a little video I did once - tongue in cheek:

 

The bottle visible in the clip didn't have any effect on it then?

[Mikkel]

According to Midland Wagons, between 1882 and 1895, the Midland purchased 66,000 private owner wagons many of which were quickly withdrawn....

 

Thanks very much for this interesting info Compound. So the large volumes of D299s could possibly be at least partly connected to the Midland policy on private owners. In any case, these numbers really are staggering.

 

I see that 51L have a kit for the D351, of which 9.000 were built: http://www.51l.co.uk/mrd351.htm

 

 

The bottle visible in the clip didn't have any effect on it then?

 

It could have!    Mind you, whisky is so overrated, Butanone does the trick just fine.

 

Been looking at "Knotty" wagon kits this evening, after coming across this photo of a what I think is an NSR 3-plank dropside wagon (and a GER 7 planker) in the GWR Vastern Road yard at Reading:  http://www.ebay.ie/itm/-/322319493202?

 

I see Bill Bedford does a very attractive kit for such a wagon: http://www.mousa.biz/fourmm/wagons/nsr_wagons4.html

 

This really is most unfortunate, as such a wagon won't do much good for my Berks & Hants setting, but it's difficult to resist!

Edited January 5, 2017 by Mikkel

[Donw]

The trouble with the old photographs is dating pre WW1 would be more interesting as the pooling arrangements for common wagons which came in with WW1 would have meant a wider dispersal of wagons. It also reduced the number of empty wagon journeys as companies would reload common user wagons whenever possible.

 

Don

[Compound2632]

In any case, these numbers really are staggering.

 

I see that 51L have a kit for the D351, of which 9.000 were built: 

 

I've not got round to building a D351 as being such a rarity, only 9,000 built... (Also the 51L kit is whitemetal, but I'm starting to get there.) Also, as a mineral wagon (end door) it's very much less likely to have made its way to Farthing with a goods consignment.

 

The trouble with the old photographs is dating pre WW1 would be more interesting as the pooling arrangements for common wagons which came in with WW1 would have meant a wider dispersal of wagons. It also reduced the number of empty wagon journeys as companies would reload common user wagons whenever possible.

 

Don

 

Very true - by 1920 you can have virtually any wagon you want, with any sheet you want (sheets also became pooled) but in the Edwardian period or earlier your goods yard will be dominated by wagons of the owning company. But strangers can be justified by particular consignments - for instance, it just so happens that the industrial scale of geranium propagation by Hampshire growers justified the economy of scale of a weekly delivery of plant pots direct from the manufacturers in Burslem...

 

The point about the Midland D299 wagons is that the Midland was the premier freight carrier in the country with a distribution network extending to virtually every corner of the country - goods agents in most major towns, even those not on its system - and the D299 wagons so numerous that even pre-pooling they still got everywhere.

 

Goods Agents: in 1903, there were Midland Goods Agents in Penzance, Plymouth, Portsmouth and Southampton - all ports of course. But the latter, Mr. T. Fieldsend, 9 Oriental Place, Southampton, was agent for 'Southampton and the District South of the Thames'. Whether he had time to canvas for business in Farthing is for others to determine! 

[Miss Prism]

With so many thousands of D299s built, it's a shame the Slaters kit is no longer available (tied up in the silliness of the Coopercraft situation).

[Donw]

With so many thousands of D299s built, it's a shame the Slaters kit is no longer available (tied up in the silliness of the Coopercraft situation).

 

Its still available in 0 gauge. However perhaps for 4mm a 3D printed one might be an answer or a bit of scratch building

 

Don

[Miss Prism]

Yes, Don. The fact that it is still available in 7mm makes the 4mm situation even more galling!

[Compound2632]

But strangers can be justified by particular consignments - for instance, it just so happens that the industrial scale of geranium propagation by Hampshire growers justified the economy of scale of a weekly delivery of plant pots direct from the manufacturers in Burslem...

 

I was thinking about this a bit more. I assume that under RCH rules goods charged at a mileage rate would be charged per the shortest route but I believe that because of the way revenue was split pro-rata there was an incentive for the consigning company to maximise the proportion of the journey over its own metals. That probably wouldn't affect the North Staffs much but perhaps influence the route over the company they handed over to. So although the shortest route might involve exchange from the LNW to the GW at Wolverhampton, the LNW might have taken the wagon on to, perhaps, Leamington. Alternatively, if the Midland's agents had been busy and offered a discounted rate, the wagon-load of pots might have been routed via Derby and then Midland all the way to Cheltenham. The M&SWJR was very much the Midland's protégé: would they take it on to Savernake rather than handing over to the GW at Swindon? Of course if it was the Midland's agent arranging this traffic it's possible it would be consigned from Burslem  in a Midland wagon (D299?) rather than a NSR one! 

 

I've reminded myself of what little early history of the North & South Railway has been published - at what point was it absorbed by the GW? I have a strong suspicion that it may have started out as yet another Derby-sponsored tentacle in the direction of the south coast - the very name is suggestive - a bifurcation of the M&SWJR. From what I can tell from the sketch map the junction at Swindon is with the GW main line - perhaps there was some wheeler-dealing which resulted in the local directors selling out to the GW before the Act was obtained?

Edited January 5, 2017 by Compound2632

[Mikkel]

Very interesting discussion, gents. As usual it is not so much the individual layout that matters but the broader knowledge that comes to light and is shared (and in my case, learnt).
 
 

The trouble with the old photographs is dating pre WW1 would be more interesting

 
I have tried to date the photo to see if it's pre- or post pooling, but apart from the obvious post-1904 date (GW livery) it's all a bit inconclusive. The wagons appear mostly to have single sided brakes but it's not very clear. The NER wagon seems to be this diagram introduced in 1903 so that does not help. The yard seems to be more built up than in a 1904/05 image of Vastern Road in GWR Goods Services, but it could be the angle. C&G Ayres vehicles appear in both pictures but they were probably GWR agents for decades.

 

The seller of the image (who curiously seems to have withdrawn all auctions since yesterday) states that the image appears in GWR Miscellany p 183, so I will look out for that volume. Not that it's particularly important, but now I'm curious! 
 
 

I've reminded myself of what little early history of the North & South Railway has been published - at what point was it absorbed by the GW?

 
Thanks for the plant pots idea, just the sort of excuse I like   The thoughts about routing have not really occurred to me before - something to think about! It would be interesting to draw up a plan for how foreign wagons arrive at Farthing.

 

As for the history of the N&SR, I refer to gwr.org.uk where it is stated that:

 

"As most will know, the N&SR sought boldly to connect Swindon and Bournemouth, and thereby link the Midlands and the North with the "Gold Coast" in the South. In the event, the line never actually made it further than Salisbury, facing tough opposition from the combined forces of the L&SWR, the S&D and the M&SWJR. The line thus suffered much the same fate as the D&NSR further East, ending up as little more than a cross-country route linking Swindon, Farthing and Salisbury. In 1891, the line was taken over in full by the GWR."

So the N&SR was not so much sponsored by the MR but rather faced resistance from it through the M&SWJR and the L&SWR. It therefore turned to the GWR for help, who supported it half-heartedly, ie enough to secure a new crosscountry line, but not enough to risk the uneasy truce with the LSWR and MR in the area (this is basically the story of the DN&SR). 

 

I believe there is a saying in Italian: It is not true, but I believe it.