Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench

[teaky]

"Dave mentioned stencils. Some time ago I bought some letter stencils from Rotring to see what they could be used for. The one below is the smallest available, 2.5 mm capitals. I believe these are (were?) professionally used, but they must require some special technique as I really struggle with them. Especially alignment! More practice needed."

 

Alignment is dead easy when used on a drawing board with parallel motion bar.  If you can rig up something that will keep the wooden sheet still and clamp or pin a straight edge for the stencil to rest on, it should work OK.  A ruler and a roll of masking tape might be all you need Mikkel.

[Stubby47]

I can see a market for made-up crates.... How much each ?

[raymw]

If they didn't float, maybe use them instead of tea bags?

[MickRalph]

If anyone wants to try making the crates for themselves, Crafty Computer Papers has a special offer over Easter of 20% off all sales, so 3 sheets of the wood veneer cost £11.59 including postage.

 

Mick Ralph

[Mikkel]

"Dave mentioned stencils. Some time ago I bought some letter stencils from Rotring to see what they could be used for. The one below is the smallest available, 2.5 mm capitals. I believe these are (were?) professionally used, but they must require some special technique as I really struggle with them. Especially alignment! More practice needed."

 

Alignment is dead easy when used on a drawing board with parallel motion bar.  If you can rig up something that will keep the wooden sheet still and clamp or pin a straight edge for the stencil to rest on, it should work OK.  A ruler and a roll of masking tape might be all you need Mikkel.

Ah, I get it! Thanks Teaky, that sould be doable. Then there's the horisontal spacing between letters. I suppose I could draw up measurements on the bar for that. Here's the full set I have, the larger letters are really only for large signs in 4mm, for 7mm there are more options I would think.

 

Edited April 4, 2015 by Mikkel

[raymw]

The couple of tea chests I have measure are 2ft high, by 20 inches wide and 16 inches deep. The metal edges are now rusty. I also found the aluminium tape, and although maybe 5 years old, it seems to stick quite well. The reel says 'Advance adhesive tapes - Cintas adhesives. I think it is similar to this http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p97723#item_detail

 

I'm thinking maybe mill some wood or plastic, print the paper with separate ends, but sides spaced, say 2mm apart, wrap and glue the sides to the wood strip, cut them apart, and glue on the ends. The ali. strip would hide the edges of the paper. Or, if i matched the paper colour more or less with the wood, would only need to fit the front and back papers (to hide the end grain) could be sticky  labels.

 

Mikkel, if you milled some wood, same wood as your veneer, you would only need to veneer the front and back - would save a lot of fiddling about.

[Mikkel]

I can see a market for made-up crates.... How much each ?

 

One of your sheds would be nice Stu. One shed = one crate? 

 

Seriously, anyone wanting to mass produce these would need a good deal of patience. Un-made prints sold as mini kits would be another matter,  espceially if a more "design clever" approach was used.

[Stubby47]

Ok, a bit of an odd idea....

 

Could you scan the wood veneer sheet, then add the crate sides & text via a computer, then print, fold & glue ?

 

Would it look as good ?

[Mikkel]

The couple of tea chests I have measure are 2ft high, by 20 inches wide and 16 inches deep. The metal edges are now rusty. I also found the aluminium tape, and although maybe 5 years old, it seems to stick quite well. The reel says 'Advance adhesive tapes - Cintas adhesives. I think it is similar to this http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p97723#item_detail

 

I'm thinking maybe mill some wood or plastic, print the paper with separate ends, but sides spaced, say 2mm apart, wrap and glue the sides to the wood strip, cut them apart, and glue on the ends. The ali. strip would hide the edges of the paper. Or, if i matched the paper colour more or less with the wood, would only need to fit the front and back papers (to hide the end grain) could be sticky  labels.

 

Mikkel, if you milled some wood, same wood as your veneer, you would only need to veneer the front and back - would save a lot of fiddling about.

 

Thanks for that link to the alu tape, I remember seeing that in the local DIY store. I wonder if it's too tought to cut neatly for the small strips needed?

 

Glueing the sides to wood is a pretty good idea. It would be have to be milled nicely to get that same smooth texture, but it could really save time. I don't really have that much room in my Farthing depot, so don't need many more crates than what I've got now, but for someone doing a large amount that sounds like a good approach. I've often thought it would be an interesting modelling project to show the full upper storage floor of a railway warehouse, where really large quantities of crates etc were stored.

[Mikkel]

Ok, a bit of an odd idea....

 

Could you scan the wood veneer sheet, then add the crate sides & text via a computer, then print, fold & glue ?

 

Would it look as good ?

 

I doubt it, unless you have a really good printer. Even then you wouldn't get that wooden look.

 

But it all depends on how far you want to go on this really rather small detail: I originally did the Nestlé crates in paper, you can just see them in the background below. They come across OK like this, but there wassn't much of a wooden look to them.

 

[bgman]

"Dave mentioned stencils. Some time ago I bought some letter stencils from Rotring to see what they could be used for. The one below is the smallest available, 2.5 mm capitals. I believe these are (were?) professionally used, but they must require some special technique as I really struggle with them. Especially alignment! More practice needed."

 

Alignment is dead easy when used on a drawing board with parallel motion bar.  If you can rig up something that will keep the wooden sheet still and clamp or pin a straight edge for the stencil to rest on, it should work OK.  A ruler and a roll of masking tape might be all you need Mikkel.

Agree with this post, if you've got or have access to a drawing board with parallel motion it will be easy. I cut my teeth on these Rotring stencils and pens in my first job working in an architects office, one thing to note though, if you do use a parallel motion make sure it is clean underneath, and also be careful whilst moving it around ! If there is any dirt/dust/ink underneath you may well find you've got some unwanted streaks on the work. That goes for the stencils too. I speak from experience!!! Also when moving the stencils/motion be careful not to catch your work because those metal edges catch you out, once again, speaking from experience. Ripped tracing paper, ink stains, the list goes on, but it taught me to be very careful

Progress is looking good Mikkel.

[Mikkel]

Thanks for these tips Grahame. It may seem like an outdated method, but I like the feel of actually drawing on something!  Apart from using the stencils on the wood veneer, I was thinking of using them on non-printable materials such as fabric for cotton bales etc. My goods depot may be filling up, but therea re lots of wagons to add loads to in the coming years!

[N15class]

 

 

 

I am a walrus

[raymw]

twenty odd years ago, not having room for a full size drawing board, I had a rotring one, like this http://www.ryman.co.uk/rotring-rapid-technical-drawing-board-a3  for use at home. It worked very well, until someone stepped on it.

 

I'm not sure about things looking good in model form. We make allowances. At 7mm scale, wood grain of plywood is invisible, although patches of staining would show. Same for brickwork - depth of mortar is rarely more than 1/2 inch, so printed paper is more accurate than embossed plastic or laser cut, but often folk do not accept that. We expect some detail to be exaggerated.

[teaky]

Thanks for that link to the alu tape, I remember seeing that in the local DIY store. I wonder if it's too tought to cut neatly for the small strips needed?

 

Glueing the sides to wood is a pretty good idea. It would be have to be milled nicely to get that same smooth texture, but it could really save time. I don't really have that much room in my Farthing depot, so don't need many more crates than what I've got now, but for someone doing a large amount that sounds like a good approach. I've often thought it would be an interesting modelling project to show the full upper storage floor of a railway warehouse, where really large quantities of crates etc were stored.

The aluminium tape is very easy to cut.  It is sold to seal joints in sheet insulation like the kind made by Celotex, Kingspan and others which has foil on each side.  You can tear the tape with your fingers more easily than any other tape I've used, even masking tape.  The tricky bit might be separating it from the backing paper once cut.  If this does prove to be difficult then you could start by removing a little tape before cutting strips so that you create your own overlap.  Does that make sense?

 

You also won't have much opportunity to reposition it, so careful application will be required.  However, one roll should be a lifetime's supply, so wastage won't be a major issue and scraps can go into the recycling with other foil.

[Stubby47]

Surely scraps would go in the scrap metal wagon load ?

 

Another source of metail strip might be the electrical variety for bus bars for DCC.

[shortliner]

Alumin(i)um sticky tape appears in rolls in Lidl frequently and is inexpensive - for modelling porpoises purposes a roll should last for ever!

[Mikkel]

Sounds like we have several options for metal strip. No excuse for not having tea chests on a layout then 
 
One disadvantage with the kitchen foil is that it can tear if you work it too much. On the other hand I really like the fact that you can cut it *after* mounting it, if the edges aren't quite straight.
 
 

twenty odd years ago, not having room for a full size drawing board, I had a rotring one, like this http://www.ryman.co.uk/rotring-rapid-technical-drawing-board-a3  for use at home. It worked very well, until someone stepped on it.
 
I'm not sure about things looking good in model form. We make allowances. At 7mm scale, wood grain of plywood is invisible, although patches of staining would show. Same for brickwork - depth of mortar is rarely more than 1/2 inch, so printed paper is more accurate than embossed plastic or laser cut, but often folk do not accept that. We expect some detail to be exaggerated.

 
That Rotring drawing board looks handy, though a little costly for the purpose.
 
I agree with what you say about scale and detail. We often expect a bit of exaggerated detail. But it's a fine balance I think, too much texture and it starts looking wrong.For example a lot of prototypical materials often don't scale down well. Eg the texture of the bales in the picture above is really too coarse, although the material I used was among the finest available in the shop (btw I see Skytrex have recently released bales).
 
It's a tricky balance. That's why I like those veneer sheets as the effect on each crate is subtle yet to me says "new wood", which is how this type of crate would appear in a goods depot. Below is a pic of a veneer crate alongside one of my original paper-based Nestlé crates (right). Not an entirely fair comparison as I'm sure a better printer could make a better job of the wood effect on paper than my example. 
 
The parcel on the left was made from a Manilla envelope. It occurs to me that that material might be good for replicating new wooden crates for those who prefer paper printing.
 

 
 
I hope I don't come across as saying paper is no good for crates. I think it can work well, especially for painted types such as the wonderful examples from Coleman's, which were yellow with colourful lettering.
 

 

Edited to remove Skytrex link, didn't work for some reason.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Mikkel

[McRuss]

Hello Mikel,

 

the Rotring letter stencils were used in a time when no CAD programs were used for technical drawings.

But usually it wasn't used with a pencil, instead ink pens like these are used.

http://www.architekturbedarf.de/index.php/katalog/showarticles/100800-1-rotring_rapidograph.html

For aligning a ruler was used.

 

Markus

[Mikkel]

Thanks Markus, that would explain why my pencil point snaps so often! 

[lightengine]

 

 
 How will a one armed porter pickup the crates?
 

[Mikkel]

 

 How will a one armed porter pickup the crates?

 

 

Ah, but this is not just any old porter. This is a Farthing porter! As the sign in their messroom says: Newton was wrong.

[PhilJ W]

Thanks Markus, that would explain why my pencil point snaps so often! 

This might be useful for scoring/cutting

[raymw]

Bought something similar some time ago, because it looked useful (and cheap) http://www.therange.co.uk/xcut-swivel-knife/knives-&-cutting-mats/the-range/fcp-product/88273  Not yet tried it (and can't find it either). For cutting the aluminium tape, I've used scissors but will be trying a couple of craft knife blades with a spacer between, to get parallel strips. I found that I could scrape the aluminium from the backing paper at one edge of the 2 inch wide tape, then cut in strips across the tape, about 2mm wide, then easy to bend the paper back and peel off the foil. The adhesive allows some repositioning when aligning it on the edge, then fold it over the corner/edge and press down. Using a paper 'tea chest' it tends to give too much, so I think I may try the wooden block idea. I don't think I'd want to be trying this in 4mm.

[Mikkel]

This might be useful for scoring/cutting

 

Interesting, seems to give a very neat cut. Will it cut through Slaters brick sheets I wonder...

 

Bought something similar some time ago, because it looked useful (and cheap) http://www.therange.co.uk/xcut-swivel-knife/knives-&-cutting-mats/the-range/fcp-product/88273  Not yet tried it (and can't find it either). For cutting the aluminium tape, I've used scissors but will be trying a couple of craft knife blades with a spacer between, to get parallel strips. I found that I could scrape the aluminium from the backing paper at one edge of the 2 inch wide tape, then cut in strips across the tape, about 2mm wide, then easy to bend the paper back and peel off the foil. The adhesive allows some repositioning when aligning it on the edge, then fold it over the corner/edge and press down. Using a paper 'tea chest' it tends to give too much, so I think I may try the wooden block idea. I don't think I'd want to be trying this in 4mm.

 

Two blades with a spacer between, I would never have thought of that! I look forwarding to seeing the results of this, with that nice bulky 7mm feel to things.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Mikkel