What Happens After SPADs?

[edcayton]

Whilst this question has been prompted by the Tangmere incident, I'm asking in a more general sense, and don't want to divert the current threads.  In the event of a SPAD what happens to the driver/crew? I presume there is an inquiry, but is the driver arrested, suspended, breathalyzed or what? Can it lead to a criminal prosecution (as, for example if I shoot a red light in the car)? I presume there can be mitigating circumstances, what might these be?

 

Does every case go to the RAIB, and what powers do they have-is it like a Court of Law?  Apologies for my total ignorance in these matters, but I have been asked by a friend who thinks I "know about trains" and I don't want to spout rubbish even though I often do!

 

TiA

 

Ed

[sub39h]

I have a related question - what happens DIRECTLY after the SPAD? So in the Tangmere incident, the driver has now missed a signal and is parked on a high speed junction. What do the crew do to make the situation safe?

[PaulRhB]

I have a related question - what happens DIRECTLY after the SPAD? So in the Tangmere incident, the driver has now missed a signal and is parked on a high speed junction. What do the crew do to make the situation safe?

Hopefully hit the GSMR emergency button so other drivers in the area hear it and stop, or the Signalman will when he sees the SPAD. One of the best features of GSMR is the Signalman doesn't have to end the call to alert others. If you receive the REC (railway emergency call) you HAVE to stop, it sends it to all trains in the area and the cells either side. SPADs into a conflicting route happen for a multitude of reasons and certainly not all the drivers fault, rail conditions and train failures are also possible.

 

Going onto the Jcn circuits would have thrown all the signals back to danger but with those with poor sighting on approach mean the driver might not have seen the change until a few seconds before as he thinks hes got a proceed from the last signal he passed. That's when GSMR is superb as either the Signaller or the driver can give everyone those few extra seconds to stop.

 

One of the findings of the Paddington crash was the length of time it took for the Signalman to react, we thought that was highly subjective as you can be turned away talking to the back row in a panel or reading a notice. GSMR has filled a big hole in that respect, it's not going to cover every set of circumstances but it's another thing to break the chain of events that cause accidents.

[edcayton]

GSMR?

 

Ed

[beast66606]

Global System for Mobile Communication - Railway

[rockershovel]

.... don't they become MPs in safe constituencies? Oh sorry, that's SpAds....

[modfather]

GSMR is the new cab radio.

 

From a maintenance point of view there's then brake tests, underframe and wheelset inspection, wiper, cab and screen checks, otmr interrogation, tpws/aws testing to prove the system.

[Rivercider]

Going back to my time in EWS the Traction Inspector doing the initial investigation will want to look at records,

how many hours had the driver(s) been on duty?, how many consecutive turns had they worked?, when was their last rest day?

When did they last drive that type of traction?, when did they last drive over that route? what is their previous SPAD record?

 

lots to sort out,

 

cheers

[roythebus]

Far different to the old days. No further comment, but the older drivers will know what I mean!

[beast66606]

Far different to the old days. No further comment, but the older drivers will know what I mean!

 

I remember working a signal box (shock horror, I'm not even a signalman either) and a 40 passed the home at danger - the distant was a problem one and was generally at caution, the drivers would assume the passengers were running to time and if no passenger was around they would keep the speed up a bit, rounding a corner and expecting home and starter to be off - on this occasion it wasn't and the 40 - on a ballast, ran through by a loco length. In these situations a semaphore can impart a huge amount of sarcasm as it is very slowly cleared ... suffice to say, nothing more was said, no harm had been done and from then on freight seemed to come round the corner a few mph slower.

[The Stationmaster]

Fairly straightforward -

1. Normal procedure nowadays is to relieve the Driver (possibly none too easy on a steam engine) but usually after at least allowing him/her to work it to a suitable place to put the train aside but possibly at site in really serious cases ('serious' in this context means the distance overrun and in some cases in relation to other features).

2. Traction Inspector or suitable supervisory/managerial person but best a Traction Inspector to interview the Driver as soon as possible and definitely within an hour or so.

3. Driver to be tested for drugs/alcohol - as soon as the contractors can get there but definitely before the Driver is allowed to g elsewhere unsupervised.

4. Time of last booking off, what he/she has done since last booking off (hours of sleep, any road vehicle driving to point of taking up driving duty.

5. (normally with employer but also on initial interview of Driver - date they last worked over the route (check with employer's records plus from employer frequency or norm for working over the route and has i been maintained either by actual work or route refreshing and is it compliant with the employer's norm for the route.  This might lead to questions about the employer's record keeping and even  them being asked to submit their risk assessment which established their norm for the route especially if it is widely at variance with norms used by other operators.

 

6. Further action then varies - some passenger TOCs operate a policy of instant dismissal following a SPAD (which strikes me as somewhat harsh to say the least), some seem to apply a system of totting up incidents/instances of SPADs and dismiss after X number, the more adult (in my view) ones treat and examine each case on its merits and usually the incident is likely to dealt with in formal discipline leading to punishment varying between Reprimand and Dismissal with provision for the Driver to appeal the punishment.  The Driver might well be placed under precautionary suspension pending either the inquiry (if there is one) or outcome of a disciplinary case against him/her.

 

Technical SPADs - e.g. a fault causing a signal to revert to danger - should not normally result in any action against the Driver.

 

Normally RAIB do not hold inquiries into SPADs unless a collision (particularly involving injury) has resulted however SPADs are reportable and if RAIB considers them to merit an investigation by them they are perfectly at liberty to do so but are most likely to do so if the case apparently relates to other things going on of late or currently causing wider concern.  The Wootton Bassett incident is one that would variably set RAIB alarm bells ringing for a number of reasons particularly a past SPAD (Stafford) involving a minor open access operator plus whatever they might learn for NR's internal inquiry.

[phil-b259]

Far different to the old days. No further comment, but the older drivers will know what I mean!

 

Please remember that OTMR WILL record the fact that a TPWS or AWS demand has been initiated, whether the AWS has been cancelled and whether the TPWS has been reset. Additionally if the TPWS requires to be reset after an incident, there is a inbuilt time delay requiring the train to be stationary for 2 minutes before the rest will work. It is also a serious disciplinary offense that poses the very real risk of the driver being sacked if they do not report the occurrence to the signalman and fill out the relevant paperwork immediately after the event occurs.

 

As for overriding TPWS, the override button must be pressed when the train is stationary and only lasts for 30 seconds - because the override is only designed to be used when the train has to be cautioned past a signal at danger due to an infrastructure fault.

 

Also on many new signaling installations SPAD alerts are being fitted that monitor the ocupancy of track circuits and should it think a SPAD has occured will automatically intervene put signals back to Red without the intervention of the signalman.

[phil-b259]

 

 

Technical SPADs - e.g. a fault causing a signal to revert to danger - should not normally result in any action against the Driver.

 

 

 

This is the case - unless the driver simply resets the TPWS and carries on. The requirement to contact the signaler BEFORE resetting still applies (although there is no paperwork to fill out on that occasion)

 

(Remember ALL voice comms between signalers and drivers, techs etc are recorded and can be check later on).

[jjb1970]

There is an adage that a positive safety culture requires an indulgent attitude to failure. This is often misinterpreted as being some fuzzy "oh it's OK" blame free approach but it isn't, it means that incidents are investigated in an open minded, fair and professional way and staff are encouraged to have the confidence to be honest about mistakes in the knowledge that they'll be treated fairly and that mistakes falling short of gross negligence or misconduct should not lead to dismissal. Warnings, re-training etc yes but if people believe that any sign of error or a mistake will see them marched out of the door it does not generally do anything to improve safety.

[Gilloverland]

If I were a driver, especially at an automatic signal, my first action would be to have a quick look to see if my train had passed over the IBJ

[The Stationmaster]

There is an adage that a positive safety culture requires an indulgent attitude to failure. This is often misinterpreted as being some fuzzy "oh it's OK" blame free approach but it isn't, it means that incidents are investigated in an open minded, fair and professional way and staff are encouraged to have the confidence to be honest about mistakes in the knowledge that they'll be treated fairly and that mistakes falling short of gross negligence or misconduct should not lead to dismissal. Warnings, re-training etc yes but if people believe that any sign of error or a mistake will see them marched out of the door it does not generally do anything to improve safety.

I quite agree.  I was horrified when I first heard that on one (passenger) operating company it was a case of instant dismissal in the event of a SPAD, end of (in more ways than one).  The industry can only properly investigate SPADs and take action to reduce or eliminate them if it knows what has happened and why and I don't think the Sword of Damocles hovering above a Driver's head is likely to encourage open discussion of what went wrong and why.  Most Drivers I have known involved in SPADs, even serious ones, have been decent people doing their job in what they thought was the best way and in the vast majority of cases they were as keen as everybody else to help understand what went wrong and why.

 

There are a wide variety of factors that can contribute to or cause a SPAD involving both human factors and aspects of design (also possibly another sort of human factor) right down to the condition of the train and the weather.  I didn't mention it in my earlier post because I'm not aware of what takes place now but in BR days any train involved in a SPAD meant the traction unit getting a brake & speedo test and the train getting, sometimes, a complete brake test and brake examination - all potential contributory factors.

[peter220950]

As an interested observer, who knows little of actual operating procedures, I find this thread, (and the locked one) a fascinating insight into the industry.

 

One quick question of the 'railwaymen/women'. - What is the order of magnitude of these events per year? Single figures, tens or hundreds?

[Gilloverland]

As an interested observer, who knows little of actual operating procedures, I find this thread, (and the locked one) a fascinating insight into the industry.

 

One quick question of the 'railwaymen/women'. - What is the order of magnitude of these events per year? Single figures, tens or hundreds?

 

http://www.rssb.co.uk/Library/risk-analysis-and-safety-reporting/2014-2015-report-spad-and-tpws.pdf

[pH]

Far different to the old days. No further comment, but the older drivers will know what I mean!

Never a driver, but having sat behind the driver on a Glasgow Blue Train as he SPADed, I know what you mean. And it was a very interesting experience, because I knew exactly why he'd done it, as he had obviously gone through exactly the same thought process as I had!

[PaulRhB]

If I were a driver, especially at an automatic signal, my first action would be to have a quick look to see if my train had passed over the IBJ

Has happened and they saw it on the CCTV when they couldn't satisfactorily explain the delay. Never pays to hide it as there's a multitude of equipment monitored on the train, in the box and on the ground.

We even reported a non SPAD as we had to move the train back with hundreds of photographers about when we discovered the block joint was actually about 4ft in front of the signal, units never hit it on a red but the pony truck of a steamer did! If we hadn't taken photos first there would have been rumours.

[BoD]

What happens after SPADs?

 

Several threads get locked.

[peanuts]

dont know if this is pertinent to the discusion but you also have "technical spads " where a train takes a wrong route  even tho the signals are cleared for the route concerned as the driver should stop and query the incorrect route at the signal and can lead to large amounts of delay 

 

 

 also some mechanical boxes have a data logger which records the movements of all the signal levers and equipment know all the manual boxes in the manchester area had these back in 2009 

[peter220950]

http://www.rssb.co.uk/Library/risk-analysis-and-safety-reporting/2014-2015-report-spad-and-tpws.pdf

 

Thanks for that, first thing I read,

 

"On 7 November 2014, the train driver of above mentioned event receives prison sentence for ignoring safety system" - Wow. - Good to know it's not just another regulatory system with no teeth.

[big jim]

Technical spads are known as SPARs now, (signal passed at red), also previously called catagory B spads

 

Speaking as someone who had one a few weeks back IMMEDIATLY after the spad the first thing to do is stop, tpws wasn't fitted to the signal i passed which i found a bit strancge as it protected a level crossing, so it was up to me to bring the train to a stop

 

Next is contact the signaller to tell them what had happened, in this case a power supply problem putting the signal back to danger, he will ask you if you are ok to continue, if your not then the train goes nowhere, if you are you move under his instruction, you then of course go at caution until the next signal as that too may be at danger, once you are sure it is ok to proceed normally you can do so

 

You will have to fill out an RT3185 signalling irregularity form with all the details which you are supposed to do immediatly but sometimes thats just inconvenent, such as in my case i was stradding a busy level crossing, so i phoned the box back when i reached a siding where i was sat for a short while and filled one out with the signaller, if you have a depot you wll hand he form in, if like me you work from home you scan it and email to control/manager etc

 

Anotger thing you need to do is call company control to tell them whats happened so they can log it, you will then also get a call from the on call manager to see if you are ok

 

Thankfully ive not had to deal with the consiquences of a cat A spad!

 

I had a signal 'go back' on me from green to yellow between getting the bell and passing the signal last week that had i not noticed it i would have sighted the red at about 50mph so no doubt sailed past that too which again would have been a cat B (spar), with that one i stopped outside the box and spoke to the signalman direct who said his panel was showing all green proceed aspects, again i had to go at caution and in fact the next signal was at danger, had i passed that one without authority then that would have been a cat A spad as it would have been my fault!

[phil-b259]

Thanks for that, first thing I read,

 

"On 7 November 2014, the train driver of above mentioned event receives prison sentence for ignoring safety system" - Wow. - Good to know it's not just another regulatory system with no teeth.

Exactly

 

It should be noted that the action that caused the dismissal and prosecution was not the fact that the driver set off the TPWS in the first place - it was the fact he deliberately atempted to conceal the fact.

 

This is one of the key things the RAIB will be investing with regard to the incident with Tangmere.

 

The same principle applies to drugs and school screening on the railways in the sense that if the person being tested admits to having a problem BEFORE testing then it doesn't mean automatic dismissal (though obviously they would be immediately be removed from safety critical duties while suitable treatment / other measure can be taken to help the person).

 

Wait until the test has been done before admitting having taken something that will give a positive result (even before the results are known) and its bye bye job. No ifs, no buts - and once you fail the test you are bared from the entire rail industry for 5 years.

 

This is why it is important to be carefull what over the counter medicens you take - anything with codine in it for example could mean you fail the test for cocaine - and a lot of hay fever treatments end up being out of bounds thanks to their ingredients.