What Happens After SPADs?

[The Stationmaster]

Unfortunately there have been a number of SPADS in recent months involving graguate drivers, since Christmas I've been hearing of several happening on some of the routes that I sign. I'm certainly not casting aspurtions on graduates in general but it is a very worrying trend and appears to involve trainees who have come onto the railway 'off the street', straight into the driving grade. It's more than just mess room talk too.

One increasing factor becoming apparent in SPADs is the use of (personal) mobile phones by Drivers whilst they are actually driving - I wonder if there might be a link?

[Rugd1022]

One increasing factor becoming apparent in SPADs is the use of (personal) mobile phones by Drivers whilst they are actually driving - I wonder if there might be a link?

 

Well that surprises me to be honest Mike because we have it drummed into us at every opportunity to switch them off when driving and keep them out of sight / out of temptations way. Our phone records are often downloaded when Q-Tron downloads are carried out so it's just not worth the risk. Of course, we can use our mobiles in an emergency and there are certain jobs where it's vital to have them switched on in the cab, namely on T3s when the radios fail and you need to speak to the ES or PICOP and occasionally when conducting Railgrinders. Another reason to keep it switched on in a T3 is so that your relief can ring you up to find out exactly where you are, ie: literally in the middle of nowhere.

 

Obviously, using the GSM-R is the thing to do but there are occasions when the radio signal drops out or you happen to be close to another 'box and end up calling the wrong signalman from certain signals. I was down at Willesden last week, standing at the exit signal from the Euro Terminal which is on Wembley Mainline's panel, on pressing the 'SG' button I got a call back from the Bobbie at Acton Canal Wharf!

[jjb1970]

Regarding new entrants making mistakes, there are certain things you only learn in real time and experientially hence why many roles traditionally required some form of developing into a role. For example in my past I did a merchant navy cadetship and on completion became a junior engineer officer where it was accepted you were still learning and needed to have access to support and help. After promotion to fourth engineer you were expected to be capable of looking after your own responsibilities and contribute to the ship but it was still recognised you were learning. By third engineer you were expected to be fully competent and capable of mentoring the fourths, juniors and cadets. There was a very good reason for this evolutionary approach to rank as it doesn't matter how brilliant you are experience does matter. I'm not saying experience is everything as I'm sure we all know people who have 30 years of experience in a role but it is 30 years of doing it badly and not learning much but equally the modern-ish trend to write off experience is deeply worrying to me. I must admit, if a guy walks off the street with zero previous interest in trains and goes straight from training into a single driver environment on their own it is entirely reasonable and predictable they will show a higher level of preventable mistakes and management systems should anticipate that and have provisions in place to mitigate risks.

[MarkC]

One of the most stressful things I've ever done at work was to dismiss a guy on capability grounds. I'm guessing most here know what a capability procedure is but for those who do not it is a procedure where if people are unable to do their job it can lead to dismissal. This is often conflated with disciplinary procedures however they are completely different (although admittedly when the final sanction is the same it is a moot point to those on the receiving end). I did a few disciplinary procedures and although it gave me no pleasure I also didn't feel anything like as stressed given the nature of the reasons for those proceedings. However, when you have a decent, hard working guy (who I also liked a lot) in front of you on capability it is horrible but equally in a safety critical industry you cannot be blind to persistent mistakes and if re-training has not worked there has to be an end point. I think the key is persistent and a failure to improve after retraining, I would not expect anybody to be dismissed for one or two mistakes unless there was a case of gross negligence, misconduct or a wilful refusal to follow procedures.

Been there; done that. I agree; it's not a pleasant thing to have to do, but it's part of being senior management. The only thing that makes it bearable, as it were, is to think what might be the consequences if you fail to step in and something the person concerned does (or doesn't do) then leads to a serious mishap.

[kenw]

One increasing factor becoming apparent in SPADs is the use of (personal) mobile phones by Drivers whilst they are actually driving - I wonder if there might be a link?

 

Well that surprises me to be honest Mike because we have it drummed into us at every opportunity to switch them off when driving and keep them out of sight / out of temptations way. 

 

That surprises me too. It's drummed into us whenever the subject arises all mobiles (the company one too) MUST be off and out of sight/reach when driving, and being found to have used one when driving WILL result in DISMISSAL - irrespective of whether there's been any incident or not. Also, in the event of any incident, the company mobile records will be checked, and personal mobile records "requested".

The same applies to any one else who requires to ride in the cab - other than a Pilotman, operational reasons only, or Driver Manager, can be on silent but must leave the cab if required to use it.

[Fay Singpoint]

There are crash treadles to put the lights on red and drop the barriers and these were standard before TPWS.

 

 

A slight correction....

 

If activated, the overrun treadles only switch on the flashing red road lights. The crossing barriers stay up. 

[PaulRhB]

Pilotman doesn't have his phone on either, we abide by cab rules. We use SPT's or the GSMR in cab.

[The Stationmaster]

That surprises me too. It's drummed into us whenever the subject arises all mobiles (the company one too) MUST be off and out of sight/reach when driving, and being found to have used one when driving WILL result in DISMISSAL - irrespective of whether there's been any incident or not. Also, in the event of any incident, the company mobile records will be checked, and personal mobile records "requested".

The same applies to any one else who requires to ride in the cab - other than a Pilotman, operational reasons only, or Driver Manager, can be on silent but must leave the cab if required to use it.

Good to hear that action is being taken to deal with it as the numbers were small, but on the rise still, last year.

Regarding new entrants making mistakes, there are certain things you only learn in real time and experientially hence why many roles traditionally required some form of developing into a role. For example in my past I did a merchant navy cadetship and on completion became a junior engineer officer where it was accepted you were still learning and needed to have access to support and help. After promotion to fourth engineer you were expected to be capable of looking after your own responsibilities and contribute to the ship but it was still recognised you were learning. By third engineer you were expected to be fully competent and capable of mentoring the fourths, juniors and cadets. There was a very good reason for this evolutionary approach to rank as it doesn't matter how brilliant you are experience does matter. I'm not saying experience is everything as I'm sure we all know people who have 30 years of experience in a role but it is 30 years of doing it badly and not learning much but equally the modern-ish trend to write off experience is deeply worrying to me. I must admit, if a guy walks off the street with zero previous interest in trains and goes straight from training into a single driver environment on their own it is entirely reasonable and predictable they will show a higher level of preventable mistakes and management systems should anticipate that and have provisions in place to mitigate risks.

 

The problem can be that there are areas where it is difficult to deal with assessing knowledge.  I realise things have changed but talking to a former colleague at Ally Pally the other week we got onto this subject and he mentioned something which took place during the Ladbroke Grove Inquiry when a Thames Trains Traction Inspector was asked how it was ascertained that new Drivers had really acquired the road knowledge they were saying they had acquired or were signing - the Inspector couldn't give any sort of real answer - despite it being his job and despite the fact that it had become very obvious that the Thames Train Driver involved in the collision had clearly had no proper idea of where he was after passing the (very poorly sighted) signal at danger.

 

It is, I think, always going to be difficult to assess the extent of a Driver's route knowledge without riding with him and then it becomes a matter of judgement on the part of the assessor once any obvious questions have been asked and all reactions to all the normal items such as PRSs and station braking points have been observed.  Equally stopping in darkness at a colour light signal you have never stopped at before will always be a difficult situation and one that no mentor is ever likely to observe but the interesting question is to what extent a Driver will know where that signal is from his daylight knowledge of the road - that sort of thing will, I think, never be something which can be readily assessed even in a simulator?

[Rivercider]

Regarding new entrants making mistakes, there are certain things you only learn in real time and experientially hence why many roles traditionally required some form of developing into a role. For example in my past I did a merchant navy cadetship and on completion became a junior engineer officer where it was accepted you were still learning and needed to have access to support and help. After promotion to fourth engineer you were expected to be capable of looking after your own responsibilities and contribute to the ship but it was still recognised you were learning. By third engineer you were expected to be fully competent and capable of mentoring the fourths, juniors and cadets. There was a very good reason for this evolutionary approach to rank as it doesn't matter how brilliant you are experience does matter. I'm not saying experience is everything as I'm sure we all know people who have 30 years of experience in a role but it is 30 years of doing it badly and not learning much but equally the modern-ish trend to write off experience is deeply worrying to me. I must admit, if a guy walks off the street with zero previous interest in trains and goes straight from training into a single driver environment on their own it is entirely reasonable and predictable they will show a higher level of preventable mistakes and management systems should anticipate that and have provisions in place to mitigate risks.

 Very true.

I am aware of an incident, some time ago, involving a driver fairly new to the railway.

After the SPAD he had continued wrong line, thinking, wrongly, that the line was reversible.

A situation that would presumably been unthinkable if he had spent a year or two travelling the route as a second man, guard, or even travelling shunter. 

 

cheers

[PaulRhB]

 

A slight correction....

 

If activated, the overrun treadles only switch on the flashing red road lights. The crossing barriers stay up. 

Some do as when we find a driver with no key, on the plunger equipped ones, we use them to activate the crossing and it's in the Box Instructions.

Talk past the signal at danger, draw forward and stop short and wait for the barriers to come down, then when safe to do so cross over. As usual there are variations

[Rivercider]

Funnily enough ive just edited my previous post on the last page to include an example where that used to happen to me!

Instances of six buzzes given by the guard to depart from a station with a signal nearby, but not in sight from the platform

I was thinking particularly of Worle in the down direction, which is quite close to Worle Junction but with a road overbridge in between, trains are then often held at the junction.

Also Bedminster, again in the down direction, trains will sometimes depart the platform but be held short of a crossover for a faster service to overtake,

 

cheers 

[Derekl]

My impression is (and I am sure there are professionals on here who will contradict me if wrong) that the rule was changed after Bellgrove to require the guard not to give  the "right away" if the signal controlling the platform exit is at danger. I have noticed that there are "repeaters" (not banner, but "Off/On"signs) about halfway down the platform in a number of stations, even those with straight platforms, which are presumably indicators to the guard as they are well behind the cab.

[big jim]

Reagrds route knowledge, at a previous company i was asked to 'put my name' to someone on a route which i refused to do, i insisted on having a ride out with him, when i did it turned out he had never driven over the route, only seen it from the cab of a passenger train, when we aproached a locally monitored half barrier crossing he said 'ive never been over one of these before' similarly at the open crossing on the route and didnt have a clue how to operate the traincrew operated crossing that was also on the route

 

the final straw was on arrival at the token hut he didnt have a key to get into it, as you can imagine didnt pass him out on the route until he got his act together

 

Nowdays i insist on taking new drivers out for a walk round complex areas such as shrewsbury as the end of the day its my name going on the bottom of the sheet saying they are competent which is a big responsibility

[kenw]

 

This has cropped up over the years in accident reports (e.g. Bellgrove) - the 'ding-ding and away' from the guard being taken by the driver to mean 'start the train'.
I don't know if the rules have changed, but the finding was that the 'right away' from the guard should only be taken to mean that the train is ready to depart i.e. platform duties are complete, doors closed etc.
It was still the driver's responsibility to ensure that any relevant signals were clear before moving off

 

Always has been the case, and remains so, the the Guards signal means only ready to start, and it's the Driver's responsibility to observe any relevant signals, no change there.

The danger with this alone was 'ding-ding-and-away', particularly with local services making frequent stops. many local stations not having a starting signal, or they're usually clear, and then comes one where the signal is on and the driver responds automatically to the 'ready to start'

 

 

My impression is (and I am sure there are professionals on here who will contradict me if wrong) that the rule was changed after Bellgrove to require the guard not to give  the "right away" if the signal controlling the platform exit is at danger. I have noticed that there are "repeaters" (not banner, but "Off/On"signs) about halfway down the platform in a number of stations, even those with straight platforms, which are presumably indicators to the guard as they are well behind the cab.

 

That's correct, not sure if it was Bellgrove, but following one such incident the rules were changed to require the Guard not to give the 'ready to 'start' if the controlling signal's at danger, unless it can't be seen and there's no 'off' indicator provided (which would be unusual). 

Additionally, platform dispatch staff are required not to give the 'station duties complete' signal to the guard with the signal at danger.

And yes, the 'off' indicators are for guards and platform staff for this purpose, 'banner' repeaters are used where provided for drivers.

 

I'd an incident several years ago of receiving the 'ready to start' against the signal from the guard (who was at the rear) in Platform 3 at York (severely curved, so he couldn't see it) while a unit was approaching head-on for the adjacent (bay) Platform 1. Promptly gave 'one' back and then spoke to him on cab phone. Control were informed, and the whole platform team were promptly taken off!

Don't know the outcome, but probably some sort of reprimand and re-briefing.

[kenw]

Pilotman doesn't have his phone on either, we abide by cab rules. We use SPT's or the GSMR in cab.

 

Our rules do allow a Pilotman to use his phone in the cab, but only in connection specifically with duties as Pilotman, so calling the signaller or handsignalmen, which would generally be when the train's at a stand

[rockershovel]

The "dismissal" and "graduate driver" issues are aspects of the ever-increasing plague that HR has become.

 

The oil industry used to have a pretty brutal reputation for summary, and at times arbitrary dismissal, and tended to feel that once someone had been "run off" the issue has been addressed. On the other hand, a lot if those dismissed in such fashion reappeared sooner rather than later in another role - experience counts, and fortunes change; the main thing was to recognise the mistake and move on.

 

it used to be said that those who can, do; those who can't, teach. These days, they go into HR because the money is better. Recognising the value of experience implicitly recognises that staff are appointed by people who don't understand the work

[PaulRhB]

Our rules do allow a Pilotman to use his phone in the cab, but only in connection specifically with duties as Pilotman, so calling the signaller or handsignalmen, which would generally be when the train's at a stand

Should be off during normal driving though and as GSMR is now in it's a better option generally so you don't risk having it on and getting other calls. Certainly we train them to have it off round here.

[phil-b259]

Some do as when we find a driver with no key, on the plunger equipped ones, we use them to activate the crossing and it's in the Box Instructions.

Talk past the signal at danger, draw forward and stop short and wait for the barriers to come down, then when safe to do so cross over. As usual there are variations

What you describe is correct for train crew activated crossings and also AHB crossings where the closest signals to the crossing are maintained at danger and all of the crossing 'triggers' (be they treadles or track circuits) are on the approch to said signal - not between the signal and the crossing. In such a situation if the signal is cleared to a proceed then the previously activated triggers kick in and immediately start the sequence but if the train has to be cautioned past the signal then it's the run by treadles that start the sequence.

 

However what you describe certainly doesn't happen on controlled installations (by which I mean those interlocked with the signalling). This is because the controlling signal will be in close proximity to the crossing - frequently the 200 yard safety overlap beyond the signal includes the crossing and there simply isn't time to go through the whole sequence - the priority is to stop approaching pedestrians and motorists ASAP, not trap them by a descending barrier (Note if you waited the standard time before lowering the barrier there is a good chance the train would have reached the crossing before they had a chance to come down given the distances involved.

 

Thus run by treadles or occupation of the track circuit beyond the signal will immediately being the red road lights on - though some early barrier installations (including one on my patch), particularly those retrofitted to older mechanical boxes in the 70s do lack run by protection.

[kevinlms]

 

Obviously, using the GSM-R is the thing to do but there are occasions when the radio signal drops out or you happen to be close to another 'box and end up calling the wrong signalman from certain signals. I was down at Willesden last week, standing at the exit signal from the Euro Terminal which is on Wembley Mainline's panel, on pressing the 'SG' button I got a call back from the Bobbie at Acton Canal Wharf!

Is that because of a 'system divert' somewhere, where you get answered by someone, rather than ignored?

[phil-b259]

Alas not entirely so Phil. One TOC which had a rather poor SPAD record decided the way to improve it was to immediately dismiss any Driver who had a SPAD - and made sure its Drivers understood that 'penalty'.

 

I don't think Drivers necessarily go an a 'penalty points' system - if they err the usual approach is to put them on monitoring and, in effect, keep a close eye on them while endeavouring to identify and resolve any problems they might have. Some locations on BR used to adopt a sort of 'penalty points' system with disciplinary punishments believing in starting at the lowest (Verbal Caution) and building up to the highest (Dismissal) which in reality wasn't very bright as it took little account of the misdemeanour.

 

I was under the impression that it wasn't quite as draconian as it sounds - not so much like a SP30 generated by a enforcement camera, but rather being pulled by a copper and having a chance to explain things in person. As I understood it, the points system was more of an atempt to formalise the process to the advantage of everyone - I.e. It stops a manager keep letting things slide because the driver is a mate or conversely being to harsh because the manager hates the driver. It also is a way of the company being able to say 'look you have had enough chances - onviously driving is not for you.

[Rugd1022]

Is that because of a 'system divert' somewhere, where you get answered by someone, rather than ignored?

 

No Kevin, it's just that the radio signals sort of overlap slightly - that's my take on it anyway. A similar thing happened to me at Bescot a while back before Walsall box was decommissioned, I pressed the button while sat in the yard and got a call from the Bobbie at Stourbridge Junction 'box!

 

You can be ingored on the GSM-R as much as you can at a signal post telephone... sometimes when stopped at a red, after pressing the 'SG' button all you see on the screen is 'sending message...' for quite sometime. Often as not it stays like that until the signal comes off, in which case we press the 'X' button to cancel the send message. GSM-R is a fantastic tool to have in the cab, we should have had it years ago. The sound quality is so much better than the old NRN system, which is vital when communicating safety critical information such as ''pass such and such signal at danger...''. It also saves a lot of time - say for instance I'm approaching Bedford on the Up Slow and already no that I'm not getting releif in the station, well the signaller cand send a message to the screen saying 'contact controlling signaller' which I can do straight away, he then asks if I'm due releif, I say ''no I'm right away to Acton Canal Wharf'' then he can see about keeping me on the move without jamming up the platforms at Bedford.

[Rugd1022]

 

It is, I think, always going to be difficult to assess the extent of a Driver's route knowledge without riding with him and then it becomes a matter of judgement on the part of the assessor once any obvious questions have been asked and all reactions to all the normal items such as PRSs and station braking points have been observed.  Equally stopping in darkness at a colour light signal you have never stopped at before will always be a difficult situation and one that no mentor is ever likely to observe but the interesting question is to what extent a Driver will know where that signal is from his daylight knowledge of the road - that sort of thing will, I think, never be something which can be readily assessed even in a simulator?

 

Stopping at signals in the dark which you are not used to stopping at certanly tests your route knowledge, particularly so if you're in an area with three aspect colour lights. On the Banbury to Oxford line the area around Tackley and Heyford is pitch black during the Winter months and on sighting a single yellow at 60mph you really do have to be on the ball in order to stop at the red which isn't very far away. The nearby canal attracts fog on very cold nights too and the signal just shy of Heyford Station on the Down Main is in a 'dip' so you're dropping down the gradient towards it, hoping to see a red glow before you pass over the AWS magnet, often as not though you can't see it until you're about two loco lengths away if there's a pea-souper about. A handy thing about this part of the route is that Oxford panel's signals are numbered to match the nearest mileposts which helps you to know where you are in the dark. Heading north from Oxford, once you're past Wolvercot Jcn. the signals are numbered DM69, DM72, DM75 and DM77, each one having a distant / repeater before hand.

[PaulRhB]

No Kevin, it's just that the radio signals sort of overlap slightly - that's my take on it anyway. A similar thing happened to me at Bescot a while back before Walsall box was decommissioned, I pressed the button while sat in the yard and got a call from the Bobbie at Stourbridge Junction '

.

Yep that's exactly what happens, in an overlap area of two cells your radio will pick the strongest one, one of the minor flaws in the system which is why identifying each other is still necessary.

[big jim]

I never knew that about the mileposts between oxford and banbury, im going to nick that fact and claim it for my own with my trainees!!

 

Regards gsm-r going to the wrong box, a number of occassions ive say waiting to exit hinksey at OX116/OX114 and when ive rung the signaller ive got through to ascot under wychwood box, similarly pushing 'at signal' there sometimes sends the message to ascot box so when you ring oxford box (via your mobile) to see why you haven't had the signal at departure time he didnt know you were ready to go as he hadn't had the message!

[PaulRhB]

What you describe is correct for train crew activated crossings and also AHB crossings where the closest signals to the crossing are maintained at danger and all of the crossing 'triggers' (be they treadles or track circuits) are on the approch to said signal - not between the signal and the crossing. In such a situation if the signal is cleared to a proceed then the previously activated triggers kick in and immediately start the sequence but if the train has to be cautioned past the signal then it's the run by treadles that start the sequence.

However what you describe certainly doesn't happen on controlled installations (by which I mean those interlocked with the signalling). This is because the controlling signal will be in close proximity to the crossing - frequently the 200 yard safety overlap beyond the signal includes the crossing and there simply isn't time to go through the whole sequence - the priority is to stop approaching pedestrians and motorists ASAP, not trap them by a descending barrier (Note if you waited the standard time before lowering the barrier there is a good chance the train would have reached the crossing before they had a chance to come down given the distances involved.

Thus run by treadles or occupation of the track circuit beyond the signal will immediately being the red road lights on - though some early barrier installations (including one on my patch), particularly those retrofitted to older mechanical boxes in the 70s do lack run by protection.

Yes I agree, and I was thinking AHB's rather than manual control barriers when I responded, but it does start the full sequence though only the lights will actually go red in a SPAD the barriers do come down still on usual timing. Depending on the distance to the crossing obviously and we have two within yards of the crossing and three only a few hundred yards away.