Cambrian Models

[Dazzler Fan]

I see Cambrian Models no longer export to US & Canada

because they are not covered for Product Liability.

Does anyone have a contact or e-mail for Barry Parks for

VAT free indirect sales, or does he block all sales to US

& Canada?

 

Noel

[cctransuk]

I see Cambrian Models no longer export to US & Canada

because they are not covered for Product Liability.

 

Does anyone have a contact or e-mail for Barry Parks for

VAT free indirect sales, or does he block all sales to US

& Canada?

 

Noel

 

From the Cambrian Models web-site : http://cambrianmodels.co.uk/email.html

 

If Barry were to knowingly participate in such a sale, surely he would be liable under US / Canada product liability laws.

 

I would think that you would need to find a partner in a non-US / Canada country that qualifies for VAT-free sales; (assuming that Barry actually offers VAT-free overseas sales).

 

I would have thought that the double postage would devalue significantly the saving on VAT.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Nile]

This has been asked before. I think the answer was to try Kernow model centre, they sell them.

[JimF51]

Noel, try Model Railway Imports, he still had some Cambrian kits in stock when I contacted him in Feb. Before I finally settled on working in 7mm, I had decided Cambrian didn't want my business, nor anyone else's from the US or Canada. His UK sales must be making him rich enough. For my interests, the SECR and LBSC, there was enough available from Parkside Dundas and Roxey Mouldings.

 

If I had a small business like this, and my insurance company put this restriction on me, I would be finding a new one. I can't believe the cost would be so much more significant. As this is the only supplier I have come across with this policy, I'm leaning more towards laziness, in not wanting to bother finding another insurance company. Granted, I don't know all the facts, but I seriously doubt the US and Canada are more riskier to mail to that many other countries, or that out mail systems are more prone to trashing a package than others.

 

Jim F

[Fat Controller]

Noel, try Model Railway Imports, he still had some Cambrian kits in stock when I contacted him in Feb. Before I finally settled on working in 7mm, I had decided Cambrian didn't want my business, nor anyone else's from the US or Canada. His UK sales must be making him rich enough. For my interests, the SECR and LBSC, there was enough available from Parkside Dundas and Roxey Mouldings.

 

If I had a small business like this, and my insurance company put this restriction on me, I would be finding a new one. I can't believe the cost would be so much more significant. As this is the only supplier I have come across with this policy, I'm leaning more towards laziness, in not wanting to bother finding another insurance company. Granted, I don't know all the facts, but I seriously doubt the US and Canada are more riskier to mail to that many other countries, or that out mail systems are more prone to trashing a package than others.

 

Jim F

The insurance in question is not that for the carriage of goods, but that for product liability; it's probable that the costs of obtaining such insurance are far in excess of any profits from potential sales in the US and Canada.

[JimF51]

This could be so, but why then is it not more common? I have ordered from larger dealers, as well as direct from very small manufacturers.

 

Steve, at Model Imports mentioned above, told me he used to order a few hundred £s worth of kits 2 or 3 times a year, and the kits sold well. So Cambrian must have huge sales in the UK to think those orders were insignificant.

 

I'm just glad no one else seems to have the same attitude.

 

Jim F

[Retro_man]

Noel, try Model Railway Imports, he still had some Cambrian kits in stock when I contacted him in Feb. 

 

 

Jim F

 

We still have a few Cambrian kits remaining http://www.modelrailwayimports.com/products.php?CID=14&BID=12&q=&s=5 

For the reasons mentioned above once they are sold, there will not be any more.

 

Steve

Model Railway Imports

Canada

[Dazzler Fan]

+

 

The question moves:- On Product Liability does the same

problem exist for any model shop exporting to US/Canada

from manufacturers similar to Cambrian arrangements?

 

It would be interesting to know what incident sparked their

entry into buying the cover, when Ltd. liability would have

given them cover for their personal assets..

Noel

[JimF51]

Good question, Noel. Last year, I emailed them regarding kits, and just pointed out their US/Canadian non shipping policy, with the same reason as is stated on their website. No further explanation was offered. They did however, advise me to contact dealers off the list on their site. Not very helpful, as they all either did not have the kits in stock, or, did not ship to the US.

 

So I just moved on, after that.

 

Jim F

[Spitfire2865]

Id wholeheartedly recommend H&A Models. They stock all Cambrian kits and ship US and Canada for reasonable rates.

Harry is very helpful and will answer questions quickly.

 

I am not affiliated with them, just a happy customer.

[autocoach]

Since this question came up over about 2 years ago, I have been buying all my Cambrian kits from Kernow Model Centre. It is no problem for them to ship to the US. If something is not in stock/not stocked  or I needed more than they have available, they have worked with Cambrian to fulfill my orders and kept me informed. Other UK mail order dealers who stock Cambrian should also be able to help. I needed 10 RCH 1923 PO 5 plank  opens for an ECLP china clay service behind Beattie Well Tanks (which of course Kernow supplied) on my Padstow plank and Kernow worked with Cambrian to assemble and ship my order in about 3 weeks. 

 

I have no idea why Cambrian's insurer attached such a rider to their liability policy. It certainly has not affected other UK manufacturers I have ordered from this past two years. For the sake of all UK exporters I hope it was an isolated case of legal paranoia over product liability. 

 

I am eagerly awaiting Cambrian's long promised LSWR Diagram 1410 van and hopefully the LSWR diagram 1545 brake van (not a road van) Cambrian has been teasing for the last 12 months or so. When this becomes available, I will turn to Kernow to again fulfill my desires. 

 

I have no affiliation with Kernow but a great appreciation of their willingness to be of service to someone on a far distant shore. 

[griffgriff]

This could be so, but why then is it not more common? I have ordered from larger dealers, as well as direct from very small manufacturers.

 

Steve, at Model Imports mentioned above, told me he used to order a few hundred £s worth of kits 2 or 3 times a year, and the kits sold well. So Cambrian must have huge sales in the UK to think those orders were insignificant.

 

I'm just glad no one else seems to have the same attitude.

 

Jim F

Other suppliers may not be observing the law perhaps being ignorant of it but they be aware now?

 

It may be that people spend ££££ on kits etc but these costs come out of the profits rather than the sale price.

 

On another note (and being controversial) never understood the idea of tax free shopping?

[melmerby]

 

On another note (and being controversial) never understood the idea of tax free shopping?

The taxes you pay are being raised for, and by the administartion of, the country of origin. (There are rules for EU countries that apply to purchases throughout the EU)

Therefore when a product is being exported to another country it should be tax free at the point of origin.

Then it is up to the destination country to levy any taxes, (if it desires) when the product is imported.

 

You wouldn't expect a USA citizen to pay tax to support e.g. NHS hospitals in Britain, just as I would not expect to pay taxes to support e.g. US military spending!

 

Keith

[griffgriff]

The taxes you pay are being raised for, and by the administartion of, the country of origin. (There are rules for EU countries that apply to purchases throughout the EU)

Therefore when a product is being exported to another country it should be tax free at the point of origin.

Then it is up to the destination country to levy any taxes, (if it desires) when the product is imported.

 

You wouldn't expect a USA citizen to pay tax to support e.g. NHS hospitals in Britain, just as I would not expect to pay taxes to support e.g. US military spending!

 

Keith

I get that ... but if you want to be ethical about, for example, military spending why boost the profits of a company who pay taxes to that very same administration who's responsible for buying things that go bang. 

 

To clarify my point; a product bought by me from a UK retailer has come from a business protected by the very same constabulary as a product being being exported.  The postman collecting the parcel has the same risk of falling off a curb and breaking his foot and ending up at the local NHS hospital whether or not the package is coming my way or going overseas. 

 

Anyway way off topic.   Sorry for the trip

[autocoach]

This is somewhat tangential to any discussion of Cambrian's product liability issues which are not a UK government policy but solely an issue with their product liability insurers panicky policy riders.

 

I should add that in the past when I was able to deal directly with Cambrian Models, they did not deduct VAT for shipment outside the EU.  I did not consider that an imposition given the size and type of company I was dealing with. Many smaller concerns are not equipped well to handle sales to non VAT locations and there is no reason they should be.

 

Kernow, as a major retailer with a large international business does deduct UK/EU VAT which partly offsets the higher cost of shipping to the US. Modeling/hobby supplies in small infrequent amounts to the US not imported on a commercial basis from the UK are, I understand,  not subject to any US duties. This may be different for Canada. For the US it may vary by shipping mode as the US Postal Service does not collect duties on modeling/hobby supplies but you may have to fill out forms for UPS, FedEx and other carrier services. 

 

I suspect there are reciprocal trade agreements between the US and UK that include modeling/hobby supplies but am not about to go digging in that most complex area of international arrangements. 

[JimF51]

In the overall scheme of things, sales of UK model rail items are, I'm sure, a miniscule fraction of a already small market. So whether it is not worth finding another insurance company, buying a additional coverage rider (which I'm sure they sell), laziness in not wanting to fill out forms, whatever the reason, it's fine.

 

As has been pointed out, there are dealers who will ship Cambrian kits here, and lots of excellent small manufacturers who will bother to do what needs to be done to sell over here. So that's who gets my money, and "Thank You".

 

Jim F

[melmerby]

you can't reclaim the sales tax on something bought in the US and brought to the UK, for example.

 

Yes you can in certain circumstances.

The US is listed as one of 52 countries that will allow you to reclaim sales tax on items you have bought and are exporting.

It is done at state level, not by the federal government

 

Keith

 

See here:

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/373/~/how-to-obtain-a-refund-of-sales-tax-paid-while-visiting-the-united-states

[57xx]

The product liability for a plastic model kit puzzles me. Has there been a spate of  spontaneously combusting PO wagons or did someone hold a bank with a Herring? 

[47406]

I have no answers or useful information to add to the above. I am aware however that my Business Insurance has a condition in it that I do not sell to the US or Canada.

 

This is getting more and more common across many industries and across the world, not just with model trains.

 

As america passes more and more laws that essentially claim dominion over the whole world, other countries and industries in other countries respond by attempting to disconnect or insulate themselves from whatever america might seek to do next....  It's most noticable in the banking and financial world, the americuns seek to force foreign banks to report all dealings with their citizens abroad with threats of massive fines, but instead of meek compliance foreign banks just stop serving american citizens. Example here:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/11/us-banks-expats-idUSKBN0EM16V20140611

 

It isn't cambrian deciding to shun north america, it's their insurers who likely now have a blanket prohibition (or significantly higher premium scales) on uk/european small business clients exporting to north america regardless of what industry they are in. If you are a company and want to export to america, it is likely going to cost you more and more over the coming years if you want your insurance to protect you against what might possibly come your way from an increasingly bizarre and capricious legal system. I doubt it is worth cambrian's money & effort to upgrade their insurance to cover exports to north america.

 

It's inconvenient for me as I live in Canada too, but I certainly don't blame Mr. Cambrian... who would want to fall foul of the laws of a country that you've never even set foot in:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-05-14/flash-crash-scapegoat-nav-sarao-complained-more-100-times-about-real-market-manipula

 

As others have pointed out, larger retailers like Kernow are larger companies and have insurers that are more orientated towards global trade. Kernow is a bigger company & focused on retail, so will be in a different category (and premium band) in terms of insurance coverage. Less convenient perhaps, but it works for me...

[BG John]

A similar problem may well spread to other EU countries soon. The newly introduced EU VAT on Digital Services rules mean that VAT is charged on sales according to the rules in the buyer's country, and there's no minimum limit. So a non VAT registered small business has to charge VAT on sales to another EU country, even if that sale is only for 1p. And the admin involved isn't straightforward. At the moment it just affects suppliers of downloadable print it yourself kits, but the plan is to extend it to physical products, so it could well cover all model railway products soon. I'm an accountant, and might get some rather perverse enjoyment from handling the admin, but it wouldn't make business sense to sell outside the UK if I was a tiny kitchen table kit manufacturer! The rest of the world are jumping on the bandwagon too, so I suspect that only products from big suppliers, and just a few masochistic tiny ones, will be available outside the country of manufacture in the not too distant future.

[JimF51]

Funny how the fact that one company's unwillingness to ship to the US, citing insurance restrictions, became a anti US issue of global proportions

 

In the past 2 years, Cambrian is the only company that I have come across with this reason. The other couple who won't ship to the US, both shops as opposed to being manufacturers, stated that it is not worth the effort, as they know most larger dealers will.

 

I'm just glad Cambrian's policy does not effect my modelling any longer.

 

Jim F