Shafted ?

[daveymills]

I recently sold a 4mm steam loco on eBay.

 

The buyer reported the loco as damaged on arrival and requested a full refund.  the buyer admitted to running the item and tinkering with the DCC settings.

 

I contact eBay by phone as to what my options and rights were.

 

eBay said that if I ignored the buyer's request then the case would be decided by eBay.  In such a case I would not be entitled to a right of appeal if the decision went against me.

 

The eBay customer service person suggested that:

 

1. I agree to a full refund so that this part of the issue is closed and the buyer gets their money back and is thus "happy". The item would also be returned to me.

2. If I had a concern that the "DCC tinkering" meant that the item, when returned, was not longer in the same state or usable (i.e. if I could not get it to run again)..then I could open a case and eBay would investigate as to whether I may also be entitled to some financial compensation.

 

This seemed straight forward and reasonable to me so I did as was suggested.

 

However now that I have clicked the button "Agree to full refund" there is no option (in my eBay account) to any further action and thus I cannot contest the outcome of the case. As the DCC settings were changed, I cannot now run the loco on my own system.

 

Despite several attempts at email contact, and also being cut-off from a phone conversation, eBay are refusing either to acknowledge or address this case any further.

 

Have I been shafted ?

 

What could I do apart from close down my account ?? I have > 10 years as an eBay use with 100% feedback.

[Horsetan]

....

Despite several attempts at email contact, and also being cut-off from a phone conversation, eBay are refusing either to acknowledge or address this case any further.

 

Have I been shafted ?

 

What could I do apart from close down my account ?? I have > 10 years as an eBay use with 100% feedback.

A letter before (County Court) action, perhaps?

 

There seems to have been an element of misrepresentation on the part of eBay about how its processes work, in order to encourage you into an expedient (for them) solution.

[Crosland]

 As the DCC settings were changed, I cannot now run the loco on my own system.

 

What has been changed that you cannot change back? I can't think of anything other than screwing up a sound project.

 

If you don't actually have a DCC system and are trying to run a DCC loco on DC, or have a "train set" DCC controller that cannot program all the CVs, then get a friend (or friendly dealer) to reset it to your requirements.

 

Is there any physical damage?

[adb968008]

From the bargains thread...

 

 

If the market is so crowded, explain to me please (or better explain to the traders) why so many Ebay sellers will only sell to the UK and will not consider selling to France - even though I am happy to pay the additional postage charges. Ditto for the independent sellers on Amazon. It has taken six months or so for one particular book to appear second hand with a seller who would mail to France while several copies still reside with sellers who will only sell to the UK (unless these sellers have multiple copies).

 

Ebay has a phenomenally bad selling policy when it comes to UK sellers.

 

I used to ship worldwide when I sold, but new rules state under UK law a buyer has right of return, at the sellers cost, for pretty much any reason.

Coupled with that is the bias to the side of the buyer (instant freeze on funds in a dispute, automatic refund after a certain time), your pretty much at the buyers mercy.

Finally for the seller to even get any kind of consideration in a dispute the item must be sent fully online recorded and traceable and insured.

Although the time limit is around 14 days, a buyer can get their money back many months later.

 

So when selling a £100loco, the buyer could decide they don't like it because of say something trivial. Say an existing price label stuck on the box, click dispute.. And the seller has to pay ebay to give the seller a mailing label for a recorded service (which includes a surcharge of course).. Return it within several days... Sellers suddenly risking being out of pocket for the ebay supplied recorded return postage from Europe (£10-15), risks non-refund net of ebay fees (£15) and some unscrupulous buyer may have maliciously damaged a loco in order to affect that return..and your stuck with the damaged item..

 

Even if it's postal damage the sellers on the hook for it and has to sort it themselves.

 

Now if the buyer is awkward, communication is delayed or the return is delayed, after a time limit the buyer can escalate, and almost every occasion, ebay will find in the buyers favour, let them keep the item, give them their money back and refuse to refund your fees too.

 

Although not me, I knew a friend who's sold a Bittern to Australia.. The good old Ozzie postal service inspect 100% of incoming mail.. Opened his bittern, screwdrivers the body off, starting at the buffer beam and caused considerable unrepairable damage to the body, to look inside and didn't even bother to put it back together..dropped the pieces in the box and Sent it on.

 

Net result his buyer disputed and he lost all £200 of his loco, got nothing back and ebay refused to refund his fees.. So he lost A Bittern, £30 fees and £15 postage for the privelige.

 

He even had the pictures from the buyer, of the damage and some leaflet about mail being opened and inspected by the Ozzie authorities.

 

He even got dinged on ebays seller profiles and negative feedback too !

 

As soon as I heard that, I should point out I've never had any issue with an international sale or purchase (indeed sometimes it's a very nice experience).. But I decided and turned off international sales immediately, it's not worth the money, hassle, time or risk.

[jukebox]

*snip*

Although not me, I knew a friend who's sold a Bittern to Australia.. The good old Ozzie postal service inspect 100% of incoming mail.. Opened his bittern, screwdrivers the body off, starting at the buffer beam and caused considerable unrepairable damage to the body, to look inside and didn't even bother to put it back together..dropped the pieces in the box and Sent it on.

 

*snip*

 

Whilst I am sure the rest of this post is legitimate, the statement regarding 100% of inbound parcels to Oz being inspected is misleading.  X-ray, yes. Open, no.

 

In my experience I have had just one parcel disturbed in 17 years of using eBay - and it, too, had the ham fisted treatment you described, complete with custom "repackaging" and customs/quarantine tape/pamphlet. But that was in 2000 (ironic, but true). I've not had another opened since, and have more than 325 purchases to my name.

 

However I sympathise with UK sellers who have such draconian return rules, and rue the selfish oiks who mess it up for the rest of us.

[Butler Henderson]

Had no problems selling items on ebay to Australia. Last was a 009 Glyn Valley tram loco which I packed inside a small thick wood jeweller box. No way was that going to get damaged!

 

The one annoyed ebayer I got was someone from the USA wanting to bid on an item that I had placed on free listing weekend for items being sold in the UK only. Did not occur to me to mention that in the listing as I foolishly assumed ebay themselves would mark the listing as being UK only. The item incidentally was one that I got slated about on a newsgroup as someone profiteering. The item was a club exclusive and I had been sent the wrong livery;rather than return it I listed at a price that covered its cost, the postage cost, and  ebay and PayPal fees, something's I think many .people complaining about ebay listing overlook.

[Crosland]

I used to ship worldwide when I sold, but new rules state under UK law a buyer has right of return, at the sellers cost, for pretty much any reason.

 

 

Under UK law the buyer must pay return costs if that is the condition stated by the seller at the time of sale. Amazon may have imposed other terms for using their service.

 

Andrew

[Kris]

 new rules state under UK law a buyer has right of return, 

 

 

This only applies to businesses not to private sales. 

[FelixM]

Yes, private listings are on the full risk of the buyer. A buyer wanting a refund therefore is no reason against international shipping.

 

The other reasons still stand. I feel sorry for every seller having to deal with uncooperative and apparently stupid buyers. I really don't want to live in a world where dubious individuals destroy valuables in order to get back money they have promised to others!

[Dominion]

I live in Canada. I appreciate the difficulty for sellers if the eBay rules are stacked against them, and respect the right for the seller to choose.

I wish there were a way for the buyer and seller to agree a process that does not expose the seller to undue risk and cost.

I have done well over 100 purchases of UK model railway items from eBay sellers, and the Royal Mail-Canada Post combination has worked faultlessly.

 

A question for sellers.  If the buyer voluntarily gave a UK address on eBay and then paid the extra postage separately, (assuming the seller agreed in advance), would that successfully shift most of the cost burden of anything going wrong to the buyer ?

 

Regards, Tom

[Metr0Land]

I haven't sold anything for about 3 years now, so forgive me if this is out of date.

IIRC as a private seller, when the ebay procedures asked where you wanted to send, if you entered France, Spain, Italy, Denmark, New Zealand etc etc etc the system used to ask you to calculate a price for each one. Now, if you've only got one item to sell, you can't sell it in all these places.

 

What I used to do was to make it UK only but then put in the main description something along the lines of 'Will ship to Oz/NZ/USA/Europe... pls ask for price"

[modelpara]

I am now being shafted, I sold an item that went to over £700 on auction and was sold as unopened in run (and the listing pictures proved it was unopened!)

 

The seller has opened it and is claiming that it was not an unopened one because there is no shrink wrapping....

 

They demanded that police forensics examine the tape to "prove" that the tape was different to what was in the picture. I said go right ahead!

 

They then ignored that and I have asked for pictures as I suspect there is damage to the model / packaging caused by them that they don't want to admit.

 

I can see myself having to go to small claims court against the buyer to recover my money.

[Colin_McLeod]

Private selling laws are fine but you only need to sell a relative handful of items before e bay insist on calling you a business.

[blueeighties]

I have been a seller on Ebay for many Years. It was great in the early days. It's now unfortunately a place where the majority, no longer a minority, know how it works and just want to shaft the seller by whatever means are possible. It's such a shame. Facebook, Gumtree and forums with decent working classifieds sections are a much safer and better bet these days. For me anyways.

[modelpara]

Its definately put me off using ebay to sell any more, Im just glad I took out the money before ebay froze it on basis of his false claims.

 

Worst part is in one message he ACCEPTS that I did not open the package before selling it onto him!

 

I bet evilbay will still find in his favour.

[adb968008]

Its definately put me off using ebay to sell any more, Im just glad I took out the money before ebay froze it on basis of his false claims.

 

Worst part is in one message he ACCEPTS that I did not open the package before selling it onto him!

 

I bet evilbay will still find in his favour.

 

might not be the case..if your pay pals linked to your bank account, Paypal can help itself to your funds.

You might want to break the direct debit in your current account.

not sure the legalities, but if Ebay/Paypal pays back the buyer, they probably will turn their attentions towards you to recover the money. The t&cs are all laid out there.

 

I always try to be as open / honest as you can but ultimately the odds are stacked against you, your at the mercy of the buyers honesty.

 

Personally I found that if there was a dispute, tbh you have to just bite it, get the item back, give the refund, be polite, make sure the dispute is closed and feedback is positive, then get rid of the buyer asap and ban them from your auctions.

 

Its a pain, especially when you know they are lying... but losing the £10-20 here / there is better than losing the lot and more.

 

Whilst you lose.. you lose little, rather than lose big... rubbish I know, but thats best as it is, if your a private seller, who otherwise would have to give you 50% of it's value to a dealer who'll hawk it via swap meets etc.

 

 

It is marginally better than it was, a few years back the buyer had an option to haggle with you over the final price when they received it... so they got the item and knew it would cost you £5-10 to get the item back in refund postage costs... so every 5-6 sales someone would do just that... I think ebay realised this was just being used to rip sellers off just a bit too much and took that feature away...  I had a bunch of push to make switches left over, so I sold them for a fiver.. the buyer claimed they were push to break and "perhaps I took the wrong ones off the shelf" (I don't have a shelf or a shop - I have a layout and I never bought any push to break as I never used any, and all my others seem to make connections quite well).. he wanted £3 discount to keep them or I pay ebay £4.50 for a postage label to return them... what are you going to do ? 

 

I later found I had 20 more.. as I really don't need them.. I binned them instead, its' far less hassle than ebay.

 

I did once sell an item at £450, to cover myself I videoed everything.. the testing, videoed myself packing it.. including the label and the tape so there was no doubts at all.. Geared up ready for war, battle ready and defences in place.. I then posted it and even photographed the recorded postal receipt on the box in the post office.... and sat back awaiting the complaint to come and to go for the throat to protect myself... after a week I got positive feedback and no further communication.. Me.. all stressed out for nothing, thats how bad it is selling there. Its basically stressful, that I don't need.  99% are ok, its the 1% that sap your energy.

[modelpara]

might not be the case..if your pay pals linked to your bank account, Paypal can help itself to your funds.

You might want to break the direct debit in your current account.

not sure the legalities, but if Ebay/Paypal pays back the seller, they probably will turn their attentions towards you to recover the money. The t&cs are all laid out there.

 

I always try to be as open / honest as you can but ultimately the odds are stacked against you, your at the mercy of the buyers honesty.

 

Personally I found that if there was a dispute, tbh you have to just bite it, get the item back, give the refund, be polite, make sure the dispute is closed and feedback is positive, then get rid of the buyer asap and ban them from your auctions.

 

Its a pain, especially when you know they are lying... but losing the £10-20 here / there is better than losing the lot and more.

 

Whilst you lose.. you lose little, rather than lose big... rubbish I know, but thats best as it is, if your a private seller, who otherwise would have to give you 50% of it's value to a dealer who'll hawk it via swap meets etc.

 

Its over £800.....

 

And just tried to remove the bank account, I cant do it on their systems, will probably have to get bank to block them.

[chris p bacon]

Its over £800.....

 

And just tried to remove the bank account, I cant do it on their systems, will probably have to get bank to block them.

You'll lose, you've opened a Direct Debit between Paypal and your bank account and only PP/both of you can break the DD.

 

I'd get the item back and suffer the loss of postage and any repair.

[Colin_McLeod]

My bank (AIB) will accept my instructions to cancel a direct debit and does not need any input from the other party.

 

I have bought and sold hundreds of times on e bay and only had two problems both with buyers. One who caused an administrative cock up by cancelling and them resending a cheque (got sorted) and another was a box shifter who claimed that he never got the Jouef class 40 I sent him. He got a refund and either he or a postal worker got my loco. Grrrrrrr.

 

But life goes on so get the best outcome you can then put the experience behind you.

[YesTor]

You'll lose, you've opened a Direct Debit between Paypal and your bank account and only PP/both of you can break the DD.

 

Not so.  You can cancel any direct debit agreement at any time by simply informing your bank in writing.  If you have an online bank account there will be a section listing all of your direct debits and /or standing orders, including a link to cancel, or at the very least information on how to cancel. 

[chris p bacon]

Not so.  You can cancel any direct debit agreement at any time by simply informing your bank in writing.  If you have an online bank account there will be a section listing all of your direct debits and /or standing orders, including a link to cancel, or at the very least information on how to cancel. 

Interesting, I'll check that out.

 

I only have one experience of cancelling a DD at the bank, I sold a property that had a DD on it for the council tax and the bank wouldn't accept my instructions to cancel unless the other party agreed. Needless to say that the local authority was somewhat lax and I had 2 payments taken when the property wasn't mine. The bank said that as the Local Authority had set up the DD not me then I couldn't cancel.

 

I would say that if PP want money from you then they'll win, I would go on the offensive with them and instead of waiting for them to contact you I'd bombard Ebay & PP with information that shows the buyer is a knob. I would also ask for Ebay/PP to supply you with all the information they have on the "resolution" so that you can take Civil action against the buyer.  If nothing else it might just focus some attention instead of the bland spiel they roll out.

 

I must admit that I've never had a problem after selling an item, I've had loads of muppet questions beforehand which can drive you mad.

[devondynosoar118]

I have been an EBay member for nearly 10 years and no longer sell anything there.

I have another couple of hobby sidelines that regularly result in global transactions in the hundreds of pounds with shipping to a variety of countries. eBay is now so biased against sellers and many unscrupulous buyers are completely aware of its loopholes that it's not worthwhile if you are a hobby seller.

If you are a large wholesaler selling hundreds of items with lower values then taking the odd hit is worthwhile.

Postage is the other big problem as EBay won't recognise some carriers tracking as "proof of delivery" meaning someone can say they didn't receive an item, take it, then you have to refund the buyer and can't claim off the courier because they delivered! eBay makes enough money that it doesn't have to care about the small, but persistent, number of users who simply use its system for theft.

I now sell privately through an agent or on forum boards, no fees, no bs, I have very clear T&C's which comply with the Sale of Goods act and have only had one troublesome transaction in 2 years.

[Guest]

I must admit that I've never had a problem after selling an item, I've had loads of muppet questions beforehand which can drive you mad.

 

Agreed. Sold a towable log chipper on ebay. It's a vehicle. Collection only. Prior to sale... "how much to deliver to North Uist?" North where? I'm in Norfolk. Tw*t.

[Nearholmer]

I "sold" one of my old land rovers on ebay three times, before someone actually paid up and collected:

 

- Chap One failed to turn up at appointed time, and when I phoned him, he confessed that his wife had told him he wasn't allowed to buy it!

 

- Chap Two decided, after winning it, on the basis of oodles of detailed photos, that he wouldn't come and collect it because it wasn't "original" ......... The major selling point being that it was a total rebuild, on a galvanised chassis, all described faithfully in the advert ....... Er ..... Surely he knew that meant it wasn't all original!

 

Neither was dishonest, but they were both b*****y nuisances.

 

So, as well as Ebay itself being expensive to use for larger items, it certainly seems to bring one into contact with the full range of humanity ....... I've met some really decent guys through buying and selling the odd item, as well as a couple of very dody characters, and the above ...... Oddities.

 

K

[Crosland]

You'll lose, you've opened a Direct Debit between Paypal and your bank account and only PP/both of you can break the DD.

 

Not true. You can cancel a D/D, but it doesn't absolve you of owing the money in case of a dispute.

 

Andrew