More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

Journal ? Which one......  Midland, GWR, British Railway.... etc.,

 

Sorry, the Midland Railway Society Journal - the society's tri-annual publication included with one's membership but also available for general sale (including backnumbers) from the Society's stand at exhibitions - principally the Warley show at the NEC each November - or from the Publications Officer.

[Penlan]

Request has been sent 

[57xx]

Well, I made a passing comment about the Midland’s D304 wagons for Carr’s Biscuits and that generated a whole train of discussion which brought us back to D299 again! Meanwhile, back on track – if there is one (which there isn’t in the photo below) – the two Huntley & Palmers wagons have their first coat of paint:

 

H&P Birmingham1873 and Gloucester 1908 wagons red primer.JPG

 

Great Western red? Or a bit too brown? This is Halfords red primer but looks a bit washed out in this photo compared to natural light. Photos of raw red lead (minium) online look a bit orangier.

 

Putting on some varnish will alter the colour of the primer, making it darker/more orange. (I'm sure we already had this sort of discussion on this thread, but for grey wagons) Examples of before and after are in my workshop thread, post #20.

 

Here's the after:

[Compound2632]

Putting on some varnish will alter the colour of the primer, making it darker/more orange. (I'm sure we already had this sort of discussion on this thread, but for grey wagons) Examples of before and after are in my workshop thread, post #20.

 

Yes indeed we did. For me the function of the gloss varnish is to give a good surface for the transfers, so will then finish with matt varnish to seal. It will be interesting to see if that takes the colour down again. I think the Plasticote red oxide that Dave John has used on his Caledonian wagons looks a bit 'warmer' - recalling the contemporary description of 'warm red' - but I've not tracked down a supplier yet. Steve (Londontram)'s Caledonian red looks orangier - but tat could just be lighting conditions. My first attempt at GW red used Humbrol 100, which I now also think is too red. I've come to think that all these red wagons - Great Western, South Eastern, Caledonian - used the same pigment: red lead.

 

Another factor is lettering - if there's white lettering, the effect is to bring the wagon to life and brighten up the colour - especially with private owner wagons where there's plenty of it.

 

Lots of excellent wagons on your thread!

Edited July 26, 2017 by Compound2632

[Western Star]

I think Western Star is right that the branding is:

TO BE RETURNED TO

SWANSEA VALE [something, could be SIDINGS but was that a place? - DISTRICT perhaps.]

If anyone has access to either the RCH Diagram of Junctions book(s) or the Midland Railway distance diagrams...  can you please check to see if there is a railway location known as "Swansea Vale Junction"?  After discussion with railway modellers nearby I am of the opinion that the wording does not refer to "Swansea Vale Sidings"...  the shape of the lettering on the right hand end does not appear to be 'ing'...  the last letter seems to have a strong vertical to the right hand side so maybe a 'M' or a 'N' hence my suggestion of "Junction".

 

regards, Graham

[Nelson Jackson]

I must say I rather enjoy reading this thread, lots of very interesting information and wonderful modelling as well!

 

If it is of any help, I used Halfords red plastic primer on this Ratio wagon, feel free to use it for comparison.

[Compound2632]

If anyone has access to either the RCH Diagram of Junctions book(s) or the Midland Railway distance diagrams...  can you please check to see if there is a railway location known as "Swansea Vale Junction"?  After discussion with railway modellers nearby I am of the opinion that the wording does not refer to "Swansea Vale Sidings"...  the shape of the lettering on the right hand end does not appear to be 'ing'...  the last letter seems to have a strong vertical to the right hand side so maybe a 'M' or a 'N' hence my suggestion of "Junction".

 

regards, Graham

 

From the Distance Diagrams, 9 c north of Six Pit Junction, at 2 m 60c from Swansea St Thomas Passenger Station or 260 m 62 c from St Pancras, we have "Swansea Vale Spelter Works & Villiers Spelter Works Junction" - see posts above re. Spelter Works. It's not a great stretch of the imagination to see this being shortened to "Swansea Vale Junction". Despite the word "Junction" it wasn't a block post - Six Pit Junction Signal Box was 12 c (264 yd) to the south and Llansamlet Signal Box 38 c to the north.

 

So there's a clear link to the spelter industry. Spelter can refer either to pure zinc or to alloys of zinc with copper, i.e. a type of brass, or other metals, i.e. solders. What aspect of spelter production would call for particular attention to protection from the elements? Is the ore flammable or hydroscopic? I assume that these spelter works are producing zinc or alloys from the raw materials, so it's ore in and ingots, bar, sheet, wire out, rather than finished products? 

 

Excuse the hour - woke up needing a cup of tea.

[billbedford]

If anyone has access to either the RCH Diagram of Junctions book(s) or the Midland Railway distance diagrams...  can you please check to see if there is a railway location known as "Swansea Vale Junction"?  After discussion with railway modellers nearby I am of the opinion that the wording does not refer to "Swansea Vale Sidings"...  the shape of the lettering on the right hand end does not appear to be 'ing'...  the last letter seems to have a strong vertical to the right hand side so maybe a 'M' or a 'N' hence my suggestion of "Junction".

 

 

 

Swansea Vale Spelter sidings is listed in the RCH handbook as being reached from either  Swansea Vally Junction or Six Pit Junction.

[Compound2632]

Swansea Vale Spelter sidings is listed in the RCH handbook as being reached from either  Swansea Vally Junction or Six Pit Junction.

 

There were 26 c of Midland & GW joint line connecting the Midland's Swansea Vale line at  Six Pit Junction with the GW South Wales main line at Swansea Valley Junction. Presumably the latter is mentioned in the RCH Handbook to calculate the mileage for traffic routed via the GW. Still not clear how the LNW access you mentioned earlier fits in.

[billbedford]

Swansea Valley Junction is listed as MR and GWR joint, position is between Landore and Llansamlet. The LWER is listed as reaching SVJ on GW and Midland lines. So presumably there were running rights involved.

Edited July 27, 2017 by billbedford

[petethemole]

I was looking this up late last night and found this : http://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/419498/details/swansea-vale-spelter-works-llansamlet-Swansea

[Compound2632]

I was looking this up late last night and found this : http://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/419498/details/swansea-vale-spelter-works-llansamlet-Swansea

 

Already linked to at post #464. That's the trouble with these fast-moving threads - for instance Western Star reached a conclusion about the sheet rail wagons being modified D299 not D304 at post #454 that I'd already proposed at post #447. (Just asserting my priority there!)

[Western Star]

...  That's the trouble with these fast-moving threads - for instance Western Star reached a conclusion about the sheet rail wagons being modified D299 not D304 at post #454 that I'd already proposed at post #447. (Just asserting my priority there!)

Assert away - until you questioned the suggestion that the wagons were other than D304 I was moving down the track that the question was "why were D304 Biscuit Wagons carrying pit props?".  Your comments caused me to re-evaluate all of the evidence in the photo with the conclusion as noted (post 454 including the reasoning).

 

For me, the question is now:- if the wagons are branded for return to the location, what aspect of smelter production requires protection against the elements?  A great pity that the photos with the 'coflein' web entry are all circa 1933.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Western Star

[Western Star]

On 26/07/2017 at 11:55, Penlan said:

One of the Authors of the Swansea Vale Book is in the Midland Railway Society, so I will nudge him... 

 

On 26/07/2017 at 18:18, Penlan said:

 

Request has been sent 

 

 

Penlan,

 

Please consider re-nudging the author and ask if he has any access to the information as noted in the post below:-

 

On 25/07/2017 at 23:12, Compound2632 said:

 

A search of the Carriage & Wagon Drawing Register on the Midland Railway Study Centre's website using the term 'sheet tilt' turns up half-a-dozen drawings, the earliest from 1906 for a 'portable sheet tilt' and the next from 1910: 'Sheet Tilt for Wagons'. Unfortunately the only one of these drawings in the Study Centre's collection is the last, from 1920.

 

Maybe, just maybe, one of the register entries or drawings in the collection details the length of the tilt rail.  Something "just" longer than the over body length of a D299 and shorter than the body length of a D304 shall be most encouraging.

 

thank you, Graham

Edited March 25, 2020 by Western Star

[John_Miles]

Ok so I've been nudged. As one of the authors of the recent Swansea Vale book, Swansea Vale junction IIRC is synonomous with Six Pit. I think Swansea Vale Junction is the GWR name for the exchange sidings. There was a GWR signal box at the Swansea end of the sidings and I suspect this was so named - confirmation from someone with GWR knowledge would be useful.

 

As stated about the Swansea Vale Spelter works was close by. I have a photo which didn't make the book of what is claimed to be the Swansea Vale works with standard gauge track but baulk road which is what the SVR used before the Midland takeover.

 

I am fascinated by the discussion on Midland wagons - Although I have been a lifelong fan of the Midland (is there another railway worth bothering with??), beyond using the Essery books my knowledge of their wagons is very limited so I can't add to the discussion. What does interest me more is the presence of Lilleshall wagons at Ynyisygeinon which look to have been carrying stone. Lilleshall owned quarries at Porthywaen and Llynclys and I presume the stone is from there but why move it all that way when there is excellent stone available in South Wales - for example Penwyllt? Answers would be appreciated.

[Guy Rixon]

In the early 1900s the SECR did buy quite a few wagons, presumably second hand, from dealers such as the Bute Works Supply Co and Cornforth. The MR wagons could well have come via this route. A bit off the wall, but could the 'C' prefix have referred to Cornforth? There is no mention in Bixley/King/et al of any wagons purchased directly from the Midland Rly...

 

 

Richard

 

 

Could they be hired wagons? I see no reason why they'd be in a separate number-sequence if the SECR owned them.

 

EDIT: D'oh! Re-thinking my previous post, possibly C for Cory's, implying that they were owned by the SECR but on hire to Wm. Cory. But that is conjecture.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Guy Rixon

[Dave John]

Just another wee comment on colours. My model railway room ( of which there are general pics on the blog ) has large west facing windows so it gets a lot of evening sunlight. I suspect that has a big effect on the perceived colour of the "red oxide" paints that I use. Anyway, an interesting thread compound, lots of good models and prototype discussions. 

[Guy Rixon]

I found this picture of another kind of Huntley & Palmer's wagon. Dunno if it's any help.

 

[Compound2632]

I found this picture of another kind of Huntley & Palmer's wagon. Dunno if it's any help.

 

huntley-and-palmers-wagon.jpg

 

That's exactly the photo I'm working from (see end of post #405) - I have it in Keith Montague's Gloucester wagon book (OPC, 1981) although it's also on the Gloucestershire Transport website - the caption you've posted confirms the supposition that the numbers for this batch were 21 to 25.

[57xx]

Yes indeed we did. For me the function of the gloss varnish is to give a good surface for the transfers, so will then finish with matt varnish to seal. It will be interesting to see if that takes the colour down again. I think the Plasticote red oxide that Dave John has used on his Caledonian wagons looks a bit 'warmer' - recalling the contemporary description of 'warm red' - but I've not tracked down a supplier yet. Steve (Londontram)'s Caledonian red looks orangier - but tat could just be lighting conditions. My first attempt at GW red used Humbrol 100, which I now also think is too red. I've come to think that all these red wagons - Great Western, South Eastern, Caledonian - used the same pigment: red lead.

 

Another factor is lettering - if there's white lettering, the effect is to bring the wagon to life and brighten up the colour - especially with private owner wagons where there's plenty of it.

 

Lots of excellent wagons on your thread!

 

Thanks for the compliment on the wagons. The Klear on my wagons is there for the same reason, a base for lettering. I've not applied matt over the top yet so it would interesting to see the result. The open above is in a livery right at the end of my modelling era so will probably remain as a fairly pristine new build but I might give the van a waft over soon.

[John_Miles]

Two thoughts about the wagons.

 

They could be for tinplate? There were lots of tinplate works in the Swansea Valley. The plates were packed into boxes but keeping them dry would help to stop the surface being stained.

 

They could be for zinc ore. The LMS built special wagons for this traffic which were lettered to be sent to Imperial Smelting Corporation Ltd, Swansea Vale Works, Six Pit Junction Llansamlet. These wagons had roofs, maybe the Midland was happy with Tarpaulins? There is an excellent photograph of the LMS wagon in the new Swansea Vale book which is a steal at £30. The Midland's 2 chain plans are also reproduced in the book and they show several smelters in the vicinity of Six Pit and also the GWR signal box is clearly named Swansea Valley Junction.

 

The closure of the Swansea Vale works in 1971 led to the closure of the line between Llansamlet and Upper Bank in 1973 although I remember wagons parked just south of Six Pit in the early 1980s.

[Compound2632]

On 28/07/2017 at 13:11, John_Miles said:

Two thoughts about the wagons.

 

They could be for tinplate? There were lots of tinplate works in the Swansea Valley. The plates were packed into boxes but keeping them dry would help to stop the surface being stained.

 

They could be for zinc ore. The LMS built special wagons for this traffic which were lettered to be sent to Imperial Smelting Corporation Ltd, Swansea Vale Works, Six Pit Junction Llansamlet. These wagons had roofs, maybe the Midland was happy with Tarpaulins? There is an excellent photograph of the LMS wagon in the new Swansea Vale book which is a steal at £30. The Midland's 2 chain plans are also reproduced in the book and they show several smelters in the vicinity of Six Pit and also the GWR signal box is clearly named Swansea Valley Junction.

 

The closure of the Swansea Vale works in 1971 led to the closure of the line between Llansamlet and Upper Bank in 1973 although I remember wagons parked just south of Six Pit in the early 1980s.

 

I think you've nailed it to zinc ore, given the proximity of the zinc smelting/spelter works.  The fact that the LMS provided special wagons for the traffic supports the case. I've had a look in Essery's The LMS Wagon, in the Hopper Wagon chapter there's mention of zinc oxide hoppers to D2139, fitted with roofs with loading hatches, but these are stated to be conversions of G&SWR open hopper wagons. There's no photo - the book is a David & Charles publication from 1977 and not lavishly illustrated - Essery's Midland Wagons volumes, published by OPC in 1980, were, I think, the pioneers of the A4-format 'Illustrated History' that we're used to.

 

Back to the ‘biscuit wagons’: I’ve painstakingly picked out the ironwork in Humbrol 33 matt black:

 

 

As Dave John comments, there’s no substitute for patience when doing this. Unlike Dave, I use the Humbrol 33 unadulterated – it dries to a very matt black which to my taste doesn’t need any further letting down. He uses a very fine brush – 000 – what I find works for me is a broad-brush approach – literally, using a No. 6 flat brush (about 4 mm wide) and starting each time with a corner plate, so that there’s not too much paint on the brush when I come to touch it up against the strapping. Each piece of strapping has to be painted with the brush coming from one side then the other, to get a sharp edge on each side.

 

On the dumb-buffered wagon, I’ve superglued the pre-painted solebar ironwork from the MJT axleguard etch and added brakes on one side only. The wheelbase has been set to 8’6”, so a spare brake gear moulding from the Slater’s Midland coke wagon kit has been chopped up and re-assembled 2 mm shorter. The V-hangers are from the same kit: the inner one was carefully pared off from a solebar moulding while the brake lever was chopped off the outer one and a longer Cambrian lever substituted, referring to this photo of a Birmingham wagon. All these details are guesswork since the photo I’m working from only shows the non-brake side:

 

 

(Crop from photo in the Huntley & Palmers Collection.) The only Huntley & Palmers wagon in this train that has its braked side facing the camera is the iron-framed wagon No. 6 – note the diagonal grab handle on the end, just to the right of the shunter’s head. This is a feature that I need to retro-fit to my model of No. 6 and also this dumb-buffered wagon, and also the Gloucester wagon, looking at the official photo.

 

The iron hoops around the ends of the buffers are represented in paint only. The final coat of LSWR purple brown on the ‘woodwork’ will, hopefully, give me the chance to straighten up any rough  edges. This approach – base-coat, ironwork, then the final body-colour – is basically the same as for the L&Y ‘unpainted’ wagons.

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Western Star]

I have contacted a person who worked at the Avonmouth smelting plant and asked suitable questions to which I have received a response in great detail about the history of the companies, the process of smelting the ores and the needs for weather protection of the raw materials and the finished products.

 

The information in the response needs to be included here and I have asked for agreement to publish verbatim.

 

As a taster, one of the products was zinc ingots and those ingots had surface cracking during the cooling process.  If the ingots got wet then the moisture would be absorbed into the ingot.  Entrapped water is dangerous if the ingot is dropped into a vat of molten zinc as in "galvanising"...  nuff said.

[Compound2632]

I've just spotted that the Gloucester wagon has the door catches above the door rather than to the side as on the Slater's kit. Bother. I'll have to change that - it's in fact exactly the opposite mod to what I had to do for the dumb buffered wagon, where the Cambrian kit has the catches above the door... If I'd realised in time I might have tried paring the detail off each and sticking it on the other!

 

... and the cranked end of the brake lever.

Edited July 28, 2017 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

On 28/07/2017 at 20:21, Compound2632 said:

I've just spotted that the Gloucester wagon has the door catches above the door rather than to the side as on the Slater's kit. Bother. I'll have to change that - it's in fact exactly the opposite mod to what I had to do for the dumb buffered wagon, where the Cambrian kit has the catches above the door... If I'd realised in time I might have tried paring the detail off each and sticking it on the other!

 

... and the cranked end of the brake lever.

 

Door catches corrected with the aid of microstrip:

 

 

…posed alongside the ex-Hornby Hackett wagon, just to show there is parallel progress on projects! The Hackett wagon had everything below the solebars hacked off (geddit?) – replacement MJT axleguards and axlebox/spring units and brake gear from Ratio LNWR parts. Hornby give us a feeble representation of side latches for the door. Not having seen the photo on which this livery is based, I’ve no idea how accurate a model this is! The ride height issue seems to have sorted itself out – the Morris & Shaw wagon was evidently low on its springs. (C. G. Ayers wagon to follow.)

 

The Huntley & Palmers wagon is in rather unsatisfactory purple-brown – a thinned wash over the Halfords red base coat. I’m afraid this is down to the condition of the Precision paint. I can’t remember when or why I bought LSWR purple-brown but it must have been 30 years or more ago. It’s rather thick and lumpy so I’ve taken a dollop out and well-thinned it. It may all look better once the lettering is on – at least that seemed to work with the 1889 wagon…

 

I spotted the door catch issue with the Huntley & Palmers wagon as a result of looking up Stephenson Clarke wagons, having in mind the two or probably three of their wagons in my reference photo. These are all 6-plank end-door wagons; the leading one, 2168, is sprung-buffered; the others are dumb-buffered, the nearer one being possibly 1414 or 1416. There’s also this photo, said to be taken in 1922, showing the door end of 3034, also a 6-planker, alongside a couple of Huntley & Palmer steel-framed 6-plank wagons on hire from the Birmingham C&W Co. – I’m in doubt as to whether these are from the 1903 batch, Nos. 11-20, or from a later, as yet unidentified batch, given that Wagonman reports the Birmingham registers record the 1903 wagons as being ‘as before’ with reference to the 4-plank 1889 wagons.

 

My other point of reference for Stephenson Clarke wagons is an article in Modelling Railways Illustrated, Vol. 2 No. 11 (July 1995). I was an occasional purchaser of this magazine around that time – it ran the Model Railway Journal a close second for a while, much as Finescale Railway Modelling Review promised to do, the common factor being editorship by one of the original MRJ team, in this case the inimitable Iain Rice.

 

Anyway, the relevant article features Stephenson Clarke wagon 4000, one of a large batch built by Gloucester C&W Co. around 1900. This is also a 6-plank end-door wagon. So, thinks I, aha! Gloucester 6-plank end-door wagon = Slater’s kit, now available from Powsides. Then I start to notice the differences – external diagonal strapping is the most obvious; not too hard to add that. Door clasps on top plank rather than as part of the vertical washer-plates (oh dear – check that Huntley & Palmers wagon…). Ellis 10A-type axleboxes and V-hanger with verticals on the solebar rather than V all the way per Gloucester style – perhaps I should think of using a Slater’s Midland underframe rather than a Gloucester one. The top plank looks unusually deep – likewise the bottom one; top: 11”, bottom: 9”, intermediate four, 7” – this wagon is 4’0” deep rather than the usual 3’8” of Gloucester 6-plank wagon – no part of the Slater’s kit is useful, it’ll have to be a scratch-built body… Those end-pillars look to be further apart than usual. (Just as well, with all that writing to fit in!) Apologies to all those of you who don’t have this article to hand and are having to imagine this photo! PM me if you’re really interested.

 

What becomes clear from the article is that Stephenson Clarke’s wagons were built to their own specification, not the builder’s. This has the advantage that I can extrapolate back with confidence to 3034 and 2168 – which as far as I can make out has the same features. The article states that this design goes back to 1889, being a revised version of the previous dumb-buffered design. This makes sense as a response to the RCH 1887 specification. It also means that I can work backwards from 4000 to the dumb-buffered design of 141X. This is the same height as 2168 and fortunately the braked side is in view. The principal difference (apart from the dumb buffers) is the lack of external diagonal strapping. The axleboxes may be of earlier design than the Ellis 10A – recalling that the Midland was using these from the early 1890s. In short, I’m confident I have enough information to build representative Stephenson Clarke 6-plank end door wagons between Nos. 1400 and 4000 – i.e. between the 1880s and the turn of the century; probably beyond, since these 10 ton wagons remained the standard, according to the article, until 12 ton wagons were adopted c. 1910. (In response to the RCH 1907 specification?) I’d be surprised if Stephenson Clarke had anything other than 6-plank end-door wagons in this number range. (Invitation to be proved wrong!)

 

One final point, on livery. Stephenson Clarke wagons are famed for their Indian red corner-plates; various sources, including the MRI article, state that this was not always the case: “There is some evidence that the colour of the corner plates was certainly different to the rest of the ironwork at least as early as 1900. The Gloucester batch however had uniformly black ironwork…” This statement is not supported by the photograph of 4000; the corner-plate (and the end knee washer plate at the door end) definitely appears to be lighter than the rest of the ironwork – the change in colour of the diagonal strapping where it overlaps the corner plate is distinct.

 

Watch this space…

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted