More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

The whole Huntley & Palmer thing feeds my interest in the SER in Reading - I've long thought my local station, Earley, would make a splendid model - ideally with room to include a length of open line down to the rather handsome bridge over the River Loddon - c. 1900-3 , early Joint Management Committee days so both SER and SE&CR liveries could be justified, along with the LSWR trains of course. These days the Waterloo trains predominate, with the Redhill/Gatwick trains as a reminder that this was once the line to London Bridge. A do rather like James Stirling's engines - what would suit me would be a chameleon 0-6-0 that could appear as a GSWR, SER, or H&BR engine according to whim! (It was his nephew Matthew who was with the H&B - although son of the famous Patrick, his designs seem to follow his uncle's more closely.)

[Edwardian]

The whole Huntley & Palmer thing feeds my interest in the SER in Reading - I've long thought my local station, Earley, would make a splendid model - ideally with room to include a length of open line down to the rather handsome bridge over the River Loddon - c. 1900-3 , early Joint Management Committee days so both SER and SE&CR liveries could be justified, along with the LSWR trains of course. These days the Waterloo trains predominate, with the Redhill/Gatwick trains as a reminder that this was once the line to London Bridge. A do rather like James Stirling's engines - what would suit me would be a chameleon 0-6-0 that could appear as a GSWR, SER, or H&BR engine according to whim! (It was his nephew Matthew who was with the H&B - although son of the famous Patrick, his designs seem to follow his uncle's more closely.)

 

Just think, though - Reading in the early 1900s, with a LSWR 395 and, perhaps a Jubilee, a SE&CR R Class, your little blue Peckett and that early 1900s Dean Goods you're yearning for!

 

Oh yes, and in addition to your H&P wagons, a pre-Grouping van train.

 

That takes the biscuit.

 

Hat ... coat ....

Edited July 23, 2017 by Edwardian

[Miss Prism]

Taking the biscuit goes without saying, but it's interesting to wonder where the butter, sugar, eggs, flour, metal for the tins, wood for the boxes, etc etc were sourced from. H&P was quite a complex operation!

 

 

[Mikkel]

There are some nice views of Reading station and the signal works on Britian From Above. Here's one:

 

https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW017071

 

Sign in to zoom.

 

Incidentally, there's a nice little layout waiting there for those who like horseboxes. If you look at the horsebox dock of the Reading ex SECR/LSWR station in the above image, you'll note that just across the fence on the GWR side is another horsedock.  With a little creative planning, both could fit on one micro 

Edited July 23, 2017 by Mikkel

[BG John]

The whole Huntley & Palmer thing feeds my interest in the SER in Reading - I've long thought my local station, Earley, would make a splendid model - ideally with room to include a length of open line down to the rather handsome bridge over the River Loddon - c. 1900-3 , early Joint Management Committee days so both SER and SE&CR liveries could be justified, along with the LSWR trains of course. These days the Waterloo trains predominate, with the Redhill/Gatwick trains as a reminder that this was once the line to London Bridge. A do rather like James Stirling's engines - what would suit me would be a chameleon 0-6-0 that could appear as a GSWR, SER, or H&BR engine according to whim! (It was his nephew Matthew who was with the H&B - although son of the famous Patrick, his designs seem to follow his uncle's more closely.)

My Dad was born at the farm in the triangle between the SECR and LSWR lines at Wokingham in 1902 (he was pretty ancient when I was born!). Unfortunately, no one in the family seems to have been a railway enthusiast with an interest in photography .

[BG John]

Some support for the idea that the biscuits went out in vans and an interesting working ....

And here's some support for the idea that the biscuits went out in open wagons!

http://www.huntleyandpalmers.org.uk/ixbin/hixclient.exe?a=query&p=huntley&f=generic_largerimage_postsearch.htm&_IXFIRST_=51&_IXMAXHITS_=1&m=quick_sform&tc1=i&partner=huntley&text=railway&tc2=e&s=etkewIOoQpU

[Mikkel]

And here's some support for the idea that the biscuits went out in open wagons!

http://www.huntleyandpalmers.org.uk/ixbin/hixclient.exe?a=query&p=huntley&f=generic_largerimage_postsearch.htm&_IXFIRST_=51&_IXMAXHITS_=1&m=quick_sform&tc1=i&partner=huntley&text=railway&tc2=e&s=etkewIOoQpU

 

Superb photo. Maybe a little late for your period BG John, but an opportunity for your idea to model a moving horse by making the legs invisible? (viewing side from the platform). 

[billbedford]

And here's some support for the idea that the biscuits went out in open wagons!

http://www.huntleyandpalmers.org.uk/ixbin/hixclient.exe?a=query&p=huntley&f=generic_largerimage_postsearch.htm&_IXFIRST_=51&_IXMAXHITS_=1&m=quick_sform&tc1=i&partner=huntley&text=railway&tc2=e&s=etkewIOoQpU

 

 

Are they unloading empty boxes or loading full ones?

[BG John]

Superb photo. Maybe a little late for your period BG John, but an opportunity for your idea to model a moving horse by making the legs invisible? (viewing side from the platform). 

It's in between my two periods! Horse moving behind a platform is certainly one option, along with behind a wall or hedge. I've thought of all of them, but having a go is still a long way off!

Are they unloading empty boxes or loading full ones?

I think it's difficult to tell, especially as they seem to have stopped work to pose for the camera.

[carlos]

It's in between my two periods! Horse moving behind a platform is certainly one option, along with behind a wall or hedge. I've thought of all of them, but having a go is still a long way off!

I think it's difficult to tell, especially as they seem to have stopped work to pose for the camera.

Some has ropes tying them, so they may be full? One hasn't, it looks a posed one to show the name.

[Compound2632]

Taking the biscuit goes without saying, but it's interesting to wonder where the butter, sugar, eggs, flour, metal for the tins, wood for the boxes, etc etc were sourced from. H&P was quite a complex operation!

 

The Huntley & Palmers Collection website has little to say about this, although it does mention that ingredients were locally sourced in the early days - there may be more somewhere else on the site but not that I've found just now. Well worth a browse!

 

There are some nice views of Reading station and the signal works on Britian From Above. Here's one:

 

https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW017071

 

Sign in to zoom.

 

Incidentally, there's a nice little layout waiting there for those who like horseboxes. If you look at the horsebox dock of the Reading ex SECR/LSWR station in the above image, you'll note that just across the fence on the GWR side is another horsedock.  With a little creative planning, both could fit on one micro 

 

I like that - I can just make out our first house in Reading - very convenient for the station when we were both commuting!

 

My Dad was born at the farm in the triangle between the SECR and LSWR lines at Wokingham in 1902 (he was pretty ancient when I was born!). Unfortunately, no one in the family seems to have been a railway enthusiast with an interest in photography .

 

In the days when I was regularly commuting on the Waterloo line from Reading, there was Wokingham FC's ground in that triangle - there by 1931 at least - now redeveloped as housing. But there's still a surprising amount of farmland on that side of the LSWR line.

 

And here's some support for the idea that the biscuits went out in open wagons!

http://www.huntleyandpalmers.org.uk/ixbin/hixclient.exe?a=query&p=huntley&f=generic_largerimage_postsearch.htm&_IXFIRST_=51&_IXMAXHITS_=1&m=quick_sform&tc1=i&partner=huntley&text=railway&tc2=e&s=etkewIOoQpU

 

But these are railway company-owned wagons, not H&P's own. On the left, with iron end pillars and a five-digit number X3370 on the second plank up, a Great Western 4-plank open? Further back, an unidentifiable van. On the right-hand road, there's an open with a high rounded end and metal sheet rail - LSWR? (I'm starting to learn these southern wagons.) In front of that - wait for it - a Midland D299 5-plank open! It's one of the ones with an extra piece of vertical strapping between the end pillars.

 

Are they unloading empty boxes or loading full ones?

 

The crates are numbered which suggests that in those frugal days they were expected back - so could be either way, though I note the caption is 'Lower Loading Shed'.

 

I find it interesting that there is such a variety of company wagons. Remember that this is 1899 (if the caption is to be believed) so well pre-pooling. The implication is that each wagon is being loaded with a consignment for a particular destination or at least area. Was there, perhaps, a scheduled daily Midland wagon, perhaps going to Derby St Marys tranship shed, where crates for individual customers would be transferred to wagons bound for their local stations?

 

The Midland got into dispute with Carr's of Carlisle over the use of sheeted opens for biscuit traffic - damage in transit due to rainwater leakage. Carr's wanted covered vans; the compromise was a batch of ten opens with sheet rails dedicated to this traffic. These wagons (D304) also had vacuum brakes and 3'7" wheels, so they could run in passenger trains. Why the hurry? I thought the whole point of a biscuit is that it keeps!

[Worsdell forever]

 

The Midland got into dispute with Carr's of Carlisle over the use of sheeted opens for biscuit traffic - damage in transit due to rainwater leakage. Carr's wanted covered vans; the compromise was a batch of ten opens with sheet rails dedicated to this traffic. These wagons (D304) also had vacuum brakes and 3'7" wheels, so they could run in passenger trains. Why the hurry? I thought the whole point of a biscuit is that it keeps!

 

Ah, so that's the origin of Carr's Water biscuits...

 

 

 

Got my [rain]coat and gone...

[Penlan]

 Why the hurry? I thought the whole point of a biscuit is that it keeps!

Just leave a biscuit on the side overnight,

in the morning there should be a reasonable texture occasioned by hygroscopic action.

 

That's if the pet, vermin, children and/or a.n.others haven't had it first.

 

EDIT: Oh, yes Worsdell Forever, I like that.....  

Edited July 24, 2017 by Penlan

[Western Star]

The Midland got into dispute with Carr's of Carlisle over the use of sheeted opens for biscuit traffic - damage in transit due to rainwater leakage. Carr's wanted covered vans; the compromise was a batch of ten opens with sheet rails dedicated to this traffic. These wagons (D304) also had vacuum brakes and 3'7" wheels, so they could run in passenger trains. Why the hurry? I thought the whole point of a biscuit is that it keeps!

In discussion with Bob Essery he said that the D304 wagons were the only tarp bar wagons built by that company.  What has not been explained to me is why there are a few of the tarp wagons in a GWR official photo of a Swansea Vale goods yard.

[billbedford]

Just leave a biscuit on the side overnight,

in the morning there should be a reasonable texture occasioned by hygroscopic action.

 

 

 

...but biscuits were supplied in tin boxes with glass inset into the lids, which presumably were returnable.

[Compound2632]

In discussion with Bob Essery he said that the D304 wagons were the only tarp bar wagons built by that company.  What has not been explained to me is why there are a few of the tarp wagons in a GWR official photo of a Swansea Vale goods yard.

 

I'm baffled by the reference to Swansea Vale. Was that the destination of the Carr's biscuits? ?

[Penlan]

...but biscuits were supplied in tin boxes with glass inset into the lids, which presumably were returnable.

... and going further off topic, the first Brewery to successfully market Beer in tin cans was the Felinfoel Brewery, Llannelli.

The Americans had tried it, but their beer tasted of tin  

Felinfoel coated the inside of the tins with wax and success followed after it's launch in Dec. 1935.

The point of this - I wonder what Carr's coated the inside of their tins with, though the use of tin for containers dates back to circa 1812, however it was the pressure from the beer that restricted the normal use of tin - as in shape etc.,

 

More information can be found at here

 

Meanwhile, as I have the books on the Swansea Vale Railway, I must find the photo of the D304's.

 

[Penlan]

.... and if I stopped to think, the Carr's wagons could be picking up Tin Plate, the Swansea Vale Railway served a lot of Tinplate works, it's a Midland Railway domain, so they got the mileage over their own lines all the way to Carlisle.

 

I assume the photo referred to is in the first book - 'Midland Railway - Swansea Vale & Branches', published by the WRRC in 2004 - of course my copy is on loan to somebody.

[Compound2632]

Continuing the Huntley & Palmers theme, I’ve started on one of the dumb buffered wagons from the batch of five supplied by the Birmingham Wagon Co. in 1873. My reference for this build is the third wagon (No. 1) in this photo, so there’s quite a bit of guesswork involved especially as the photo shows the non-braked side – as it does for the other two wagons of this type near the rear of the train. As with the 1889 iron framed wagon, the starting point is Cambrian kit C74. As will be seen, this introduces several compromises, starting with the length – 15’0” or 60 mm – which may be a bit long for a wagon of the 1870s. Reference to various drawings of dumb buffered wagons shows that the buffers typically stick out 15” – 16” beyond the wagon body, so I cut a piece of 0.157” x 0.060” Plastikard Microstrip 70 mm long to form the solebar and a piece 24.5 mm long for the headstock – giving enough width between the solebars to fit an MJT etched axleguard unit. These I welded square, with the headstock inset 5 mm from the end of the solebar:

 

 

To help keep the whole assembly square, I cut a rectangle of 60 thou (0.060”) plasticard as a false floor sitting inside the solebars and headstocks. The dumb buffers were built up with a slip of 20 thou plasticard and a piece of the solebar microstrip to give a thickness of 0.140” – 3.6 mm, close enough to the 11” of the prototype – or at least, of LNWR and Midland timber trucks, which are the dumb buffered wagons for which I have the most information. The MJT axleguard etch comes with a selection of crownplates, coupling plates and other solebar ironwork – having already sprayed these black, my cunning plan is to add them after I’ve painted the base colour.

 

 

I have, however, added the inner brackets in microstrip, as for my LNWR D12/D13 timber truck builds, though subsequent reference to the photo in Pannier39 suggests this might not be the correct arrangement for a Birmingham Wagon Co. wagon (see post #241). I’ve assumed that the solebar height should be 11” – a standard dimension. The microstrip is a scale 12” high (0.157” = 4 mm), so I filed and sanded down the tops of the dumb buffers and the headstock to closer to scale. As before, I’ve rounded off the Cambrian end to closer to an arc profile. The back of the end pillars where they project below the end sheeting are not flush with the sheeting, so the end sticks out from the headstock. I cured the rear of the end pillars down to cure this. With one axleguard unit in place for a trial fit, I’ve got something that looks like and overgrown platform barrow:

 

 

As I noted with my Hornby wagon conversion, the MJT axleguard units get in the way of the tail of the Slater’s 3-link coupling hook, so I’ve sawn and filed a chunks out of these:

 

 

This photo illustrates the value of taking photos as one goes along – it’s reminded me that I need to fill in the holes in the ends of the siderails where the headstocks aren’t…

 

I’ve used the Cambrian floor on top of my false floor to keep the sides the right distance out from the solebars. The Cambrian sides needed some modification – the kit has door catches on the top plank, whereas, like my previous H&P wagon, this one has the catches to the side. However, this wagon does have diagonal strapping. The moulding has round door banger plates; I carefully shaved these off and recycled them on the Gloucester wagon, solving a problem there:

 

 

The pencil marks on the solebar mark the axle positions for 9’0” wheelbase; following a comment of wagonman’s, for this photo I’ve set the wheelbase to 8’6”. The axleguard units aren’t glued in place yet, I’m still pondering this, taking into account the suspicion that the 15’ body may be too long anyway.

 

I'm still completely fogged by the idea that the D304 wagons for Carr's biscuit traffic should be found in Swansea Vale - please explain.

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Penlan]

Found it?
The photo, taken in 1912, from above the large complex of Ynysygeinon Sidings, shows the tarpaulin wagons in the bottom LH corner - In fact of the 10 manufactured, there are 3 in this view, the 1st, 2nd and 4th wagons in that line.  

The lettering under the 'R' helps to identify them, as well as the bar - left side, centre and right on the 3 wagons..

Note also on the 2nd & 3rd MR wagons, no brakes this side.

 

IN FACT doing a closer scrutiny of the bottom MR wagon loaded with timber, I think this is a D304 too, there's a bar on the RH side, and the lettering under the 'R'. That's 40% of the total MR D304's in this view.

So much for designated traffic.

 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Penlan

[Penlan]

I'm still completely fogged by the idea that the D304 wagons for Carr's biscuit traffic should be found in Swansea Vale - please explain. 

Collecting Tinplate. - Cornish Tin of course..... 

Biscuits out, Tinplate back 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Penlan

[Compound2632]

Found it?

The photo, taken in 1912, from above the large complex of Ynysygeinon Sidings, shows the tarpaulin wagons in the bottom LH corner - In fact of the 10 manufactured, there are 3 in this view, the 1st, 2nd and 4th wagons in that line.  

The lettering under the 'R' helps to identify them, as well as the bar - left side, centre and right on the 3 wagons..

Note also on the 2nd & 3rd MR wagons, no brakes this side.

 

IN FACT doing a closer scrutiny of the bottom MR wagon loaded with timber, I think this is a D304 too, there's a bar on the RH side, and the lettering under the 'R'. That's 40% of the total MR D304's in this view.

 

MR D304.jpg

 

Well that's altogether bizarre. The 1912 date is too early for any of the Midland's other post-D299 5-plank diagrams, D302 or D663A, which in any case are characterised by extra vertical strapping half-way along between the side knees and corner plates. (This does mean that the third wagon in this line is the statutory D299!) Essery does say that it was not known to him how long the D304 wagons were used exclusively for Carr's traffic. On the evidence of this, I would say less than five years on the assumption that they're now in general service, though why concentrated in South Wales is a mystery. The lettering under the R seems to be the full height of the plank and quite different to the signwrighter's copperplate To work between Carlisle and Leyton on the Derby official photo (Midland Wagons Vol. 1 Plate 108).Essery's other photo (Op. cit. Plate 109) shows a filthy dark wagon with no visible markings but still vacuum braked. 

 

EDIT: After further contemplation, I am unconvinced that the wagons in Penlan's photo are D304. I suspect that they are D299 with a previously undocumented modification. The D304 wagons were 16'6" over headstocks, 19" longer than D299; a common dimension for PO mineral wagons of the period was 14'6" inside; with 3" sheeting, 15'0" overall, i.e. just 1" longer than D299. Compare the four Midland wagons with the four POs alongside: they match them in length. Furthermore, the D304 wagons, being vacuum-braked, had a very short brake lever on both sides. The wagon nearest the camera appears to have a standard-length lever, the second and third none visible, and the fourth a standard lever.

 

As a follower of the Lilleshall thread, I note the line of their wagons - with pale interiors suggesting stone traffic rather than coal - for the Swansea Vale ironworks?

Edited July 24, 2017 by Compound2632

[billbedford]

I'm baffled by the reference to Swansea Vale. Was that the destination of the Carr's biscuits? ?

 

 

Delivering ship's biscuits to chandlers?

[Buhar]

I have a copy of an old RM with a drawing for an 8T high sided goods and mineral wagon built by the Midland for the SECR in 1898.  Was this a D299? It fits with the dates of production of the first iteration?

[Compound2632]

I have a copy of an old RM with a drawing for an 8T high sided goods and mineral wagon built by the Midland for the SECR in 1898.  Was this a D299? It fits with the dates of production of the first iteration?

 

Buhar, that sounds highly likely - the description matches. It would still be the South Eastern Railway at this date as the working union with the LCDR didn't come into effect until 1 Jan 1899. About this date the SER also built some 6-wheel brake vans identical in all but details to the Midland D393 design. There was a thread about these a while ago in which I speculated that the link was James Clayton, who moved from Derby to Ashford in 1898. I'd need some convincing that the Midland built these D299 clones rather than just providing the drawings either to Ashford or the SER's contractor, as railway companies building equipment for sale to other railways had been ruled to be outside the terms of their incorporation by Act of Parliament, following action brought by the independent locomotive manufacturers when the LNWR built some Sampson 2-4-0s and DX 0-6-0s for the L&YR in the 1870s. Derby did build rolling stock for some of its joint lines - or at least for the S&DJR, though Highbridge built more to Midland designs or used Midland components or patterns in its own creations. This photo of the Midland's coal wharf in central Bristol teems with D299s but one S&DJR look-alike is also visible.