Evertrainz Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 While looking through the Wagon Diagram Book I came across a diag. 1/212 Margarine Van. Simon Dunstall's site shows that there were 150 of these, but states that they were later re/un-branded to regular 12T vans? What was the difference in these vans, as they look completely identical to the standard van? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 (edited) Externally, yes absolutely similar to the standard van. Simply written MARGARINE above the tonnage. In later years http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brvanplanked/e36240c3e http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brvanplanked/e2c483f0a Paul Edited June 23, 2017 by hmrspaul 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennyboy Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 They also had self lubricating axle boxes. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 They were probably lower in cholesterol and saturated fat as well. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted June 23, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 23, 2017 I thought I had read they differed from dia 1/208 vans in having shelves inside. The diagram does not show this feature so I must have imaged it. Could they have been lettered for margarine traffic so that they would not be used on general smalls traffic and potentially become contaminated? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbb Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 clearly a slippery subject.. I will ask my auntie Marge... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 I would read nothing in to it other than a batch of wagons built for a Dedicated traffic rather like the Iron Ore Tipplers built for Chalk and the SOV,s for wood pulp! Mark Saunders 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted June 23, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 23, 2017 Presumably they spread about a bit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evertrainz Posted June 24, 2017 Author Share Posted June 24, 2017 Externally, yes absolutely similar to the standard van. Simply written MARGARINE above the tonnage. In later years http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brvanplanked/e36240c3e http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brvanplanked/e2c483f0a Paul After looking at those I believe these were the only fully-planked (non-shock) standard vans to recieve Oleo buffers. So assuming was margarine lost to the roads around the time as most other perishable goods, the 'MARGARINE' branding was lost around the early 70's? Clive, the point about not wanting to contaminate the van interiors with other substances makes sense, but would it really have been worth a whole 'nother batch of vans for the sake of a minor lettering difference? Maybe they could have pulled some existing vans out, cleaned them thoroughly, and given them the new 'MARGARINE' status. But if there truly were shelves installed inside then it would matter I suppose. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 So assuming was margarine lost to the roads around the time as most other perishable goods, the 'MARGARINE' branding was lost around the early 70's? At one time I believe bulk margarine was carried in tank wagons (I assume the vans carried the packaged product). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 After looking at those I believe these were the only fully-planked (non-shock) standard vans to recieve Oleo buffers. So assuming was margarine lost to the roads around the time as most other perishable goods, the 'MARGARINE' branding was lost around the early 70's? Clive, the point about not wanting to contaminate the van interiors with other substances makes sense, but would it really have been worth a whole 'nother batch of vans for the sake of a minor lettering difference? Maybe they could have pulled some existing vans out, cleaned them thoroughly, and given them the new 'MARGARINE' status. But if there truly were shelves installed inside then it would matter I suppose. They were introduced years before the Oleo buffer was invented (c1959 for the common one). I've no idea why the diagram says this, as copied by Don Rowland. They have standard spindle buffers. The writing is unusual in that the MARGARINE appears to be body colour (well dark) on a light ground which is on the 4th plank up, between the edge of the corner steel and the upright intermediate support. Possibly the ground is yellow, but again guess work. They worked from the margarine works on the LTSR. This writing style is also on some diag 108 vans, and they worked with the earlier palvans converted from GWR vans with twin end vents. Oleo buffers are on the couple I photographed, so possibly the diagram was issued about 1960 (it follows the palvans 211) when a conversion was undertaken. They may well have had internal shelving, but there doesn't appear to be any bolting etc showing on the sides. The lot file at the HMRS study centre Butterley may reveal more. Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evertrainz Posted June 24, 2017 Author Share Posted June 24, 2017 (edited) Hi Paul, two interesting things you mention that I've overlooked. First is that I thought that the 'MARGARINE' would be the typical white lettering color, but the inverse colors pique my interest definitely. Perhaps it was an addition to be able to identify it as a margarine van from a distance. Another is that the lettering for these vans is a plank above where you'd expect the 'VANFIT', 'INSULATED', etc. markings to be situated. This G. Farish van represents the background color as white. It's also got black door latch gear but I am not sure to what extent that's accurate. http://www.hattons.co.uk/18119/Graham_Farish_373_701_12_Ton_ventilated_box_van_planked_sides_in_BR_bauxite_Margarine_branding/StockDetail.aspx Edited June 24, 2017 by Evertrainz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Hi Paul, two interesting things you mention that I've overlooked. First is that I thought that the 'MARGARINE' would be the typical white lettering color, but the inverse colors pique my interest definitely. Perhaps it was an addition to be able to identify it as a margarine van from a distance. Another is that the lettering for these vans is a plank above where you'd expect the 'VANFIT', 'INSULATED', etc. markings to be situated. This G. Farish van represents the background color as white. It's also got black door latch gear but I am not sure to what extent that's accurate. http://www.hattons.co.uk/18119/Graham_Farish_373_701_12_Ton_ventilated_box_van_planked_sides_in_BR_bauxite_Margarine_branding/StockDetail.aspx Without a colour photo being available that does look like a good attempt at the 1950s condition. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted June 25, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 25, 2017 How do you tell the difference between Butter vans & these Margarine ones? Is there a tasting test? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 They were introduced years before the Oleo buffer was invented (c1959 for the common one). I've no idea why the diagram says this, as copied by Don Rowland. They have standard spindle buffers. The writing is unusual in that the MARGARINE appears to be body colour (well dark) on a light ground which is on the 4th plank up, between the edge of the corner steel and the upright intermediate support. Possibly the ground is yellow, but again guess work. They worked from the margarine works on the LTSR. This writing style is also on some diag 108 vans, and they worked with the earlier palvans converted from GWR vans with twin end vents. Oleo buffers are on the couple I photographed, so possibly the diagram was issued about 1960 (it follows the palvans 211) when a conversion was undertaken. They may well have had internal shelving, but there doesn't appear to be any bolting etc showing on the sides. The lot file at the HMRS study centre Butterley may reveal more. Paul Bartlett David Larkin's data sheet on the subject states :- Margarine Vans Margarine became popular in the years following Nationalisation and B.R. set aside specialist vans for this traffic. A diagram was issued, B.R. Diagram 1/212, but basically these vans were standard planked ventilated vans with 1'6" Oleo hydraulic buffers and the legend 'MARGARINE'. In addition to the one batch built, Lot 2585, the numbers were made up by additional conversions from standard vans. Numbers are as follows : B761000 -3/5/6/12-5/88-91, B761208 - B761299, B761300 - B761343, b762114 - B762179, B762280 - b762299, B762300 - B762399, B762400 - B762429. (N.B. See also the Palvans allocated to this traffic, earlier in this data sheet). In addition to this information, my reference database gives the following for BR Diagram 1/212 :- Railway Modeller : August 1971 British Railway Modelling : March 1994 Model Railways : April 1987 British Railways Wagons - the first Half Million (D&C) : Plate 60 Railways in Profile No.3, B.R. Vans (Cheona) : Plate 76 Wagons of the early British Railways Era - A Pictorial study of the 1948 - 1954 Period (Kestrel) : Page 51 The British Railways Wagons Plate 60 reference is the B&W BR official photo - B762318 - (reproduced also on the book dust cover), and close examination appears to indicate that the lettering is in reverse stencil style on the fourth plank; ie. body colour lettering showing through a stencilled-over light-coloured patch. The light colour looks to be marginally less reflective than the white lettering of the number and load markings. I would strongly suggest that the MARGARINE lettering was applied by placing a reverse stencil of the word over the fourth plank, and hand painting / spraying yellow paint over the stencil. If anyone has access to a high res. version of the official photo, they may be able to confirm or refute my deductions. Note also that the number is applied in bold LMS / LNER style characters, not BR Gill Sans; Wolverton were know for doing this, but Diagram 1/212 wagons were built at Faverdale. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 (edited) David Larkin's data sheet on the subject states :- Margarine Vans Margarine became popular in the years following Nationalisation and B.R. set aside specialist vans for this traffic. A diagram was issued, B.R. Diagram 1/212, but basically these vans were standard planked ventilated vans with 1'6" Oleo hydraulic buffers and the legend 'MARGARINE'. In addition to the one batch built, Lot 2585, the numbers were made up by additional conversions from standard vans. Numbers are as follows : B761000 -3/5/6/12-5/88-91, B761208 - B761299, B761300 - B761343, b762114 - B762179, B762280 - b762299, B762300 - B762399, B762400 - B762429. (N.B. See also the Palvans allocated to this traffic, earlier in this data sheet). I John Isherwood. An interesting discussion. For others these are diag 212 - B762280 - B762429 I have looked at the earlier photos I have (the steam loco hauling the train is an LTSR 0-6-2T with early Lion symbol) with the reverse MARGARINE lettering and also as Dave L mentions other vans, including Palvans of the GWR base type. DLs list isn't complete. B762489 (LMS style fat font) has the reverse MARGARINE lettering as does B762497 with regular font. Some of these also have the tare in unusually large numbers 7 - 12 and on the extreme lower right hand end - not with conventional XP and WB 10-0. I was mistaken about the buffers. The photo Plate 60 in Rowland does show Oleo buffers, but not of the style we are familiar with. As frequently happened it looks like these remained in undercoat - which in later years was a light green. In my photos one of the photos shows something similar, but the running number is not exposed. OK, they may not be a normal Spindle buffer but a similar design which appears slightly thicker in the base casting - although they have webs both on the sides and top. There is a nice photo of these, or something very similar to the photo under 1951 in that link. The official history of Oleo is at https://www.oleo.co.uk/about/history Whether that is an accurate history is unclear as they say that use by BR began in 1953 and they use a SR brake van with the heavy base buffers familiar on them as illustration - like this has http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/srbrakevan/e49d9d006. They also use a photo of an elderly spindle buffered wagon for 1957 when heavy buffers are produced [They mention in 1960 1,000 buffers a week are being produced for BR - using a photo of the type of 18 in. buffer we are familiar with. DL may have captured one of these earlier ones later in life on B762361 Paul PS the corrugated ends appear to be randomly different like many BR vans. I've also noticed that fitting later style Oleo buffers to BR standard vans is unusual - if my collection is anything to go by - and the two of diag 212 I've photographed, and 2 of 3 by DL have replacement Oleos. Edited June 25, 2017 by hmrspaul 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted June 25, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 25, 2017 As the late great Leonard Cohen said, 'Blood is thicker margarine than grease' (Jazz Police, I'm Your Man). A thought about the shelves for which no fittings can be seen on the outside of the van; if these were like the shelves fitted inside passenger mk1 brake vehicles, BGs , and GUVs, they were on hinges and folded down, held from above by chains which used to rattle when they were loose because the shelves were folded up out of the way when not needed as the train moved. This would allow the vans' uses as ordinary general merchandise vans when thery were not carrying margarine, presumably the finished packed product in boxes for distribution. No visible indication of their presence would be showing on the outside of the van, as the hinges were mounted on battens simply screwed to the wall inside the van, likewise the hooks for the chains. This explains why the only visible indication from the outside was the branding. I am not stating this to be a fact, as I don't know it if is, but touting it as a possibility. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted June 25, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 25, 2017 (edited) An interesting discussion. For others these are diag 212 - B762280 - B762429 I have looked at the earlier photos I have (the steam loco hauling the train is an LTSR 0-6-2T with early Lion symbol) with the reverse MARGARINE lettering and also as Dave L mentions other vans, including Palvans of the GWR base type. DLs list isn't complete. B762489 (LMS style fat font) has the reverse MARGARINE lettering as does B762497 with regular font. Some of these also have the tare in unusually large numbers 7 - 12 and on the extreme lower right hand end - not with conventional XP and WB 10-0. I was mistaken about the buffers. The photo Plate 60 in Rowland does show Oleo buffers, but not of the style we are familiar with. As frequently happened it looks like these remained in undercoat - which in later years was a light green. In my photos one of the photos shows something similar, but the running number is not exposed. OK, they may not be a normal Spindle buffer but a similar design which appears slightly thicker in the base casting - although they have webs both on the sides and top. There is a nice photo of these, or something very similar to the photo under 1951 in that link. The official history of Oleo is at https://www.oleo.co.uk/about/history Whether that is an accurate history is unclear as they say that use by BR began in 1953 and they use a SR brake van with the heavy base buffers familiar on them as illustration - like this has http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/srbrakevan/e49d9d006. They also use a photo of an elderly spindle buffered wagon for 1957 when heavy buffers are produced [They mention in 1960 1,000 buffers a week are being produced for BR - using a photo of the type of 18 in. buffer we are familiar with. DL may have captured one of these earlier ones later in life on B762361 W1652DL B762361Oct. 69 Buffer.jpg Paul PS the corrugated ends appear to be randomly different like many BR vans. I've also noticed that fitting later style Oleo buffers to BR standard vans is unusual - if my collection is anything to go by - and the two of diag 212 I've photographed, and 2 of 3 by DL have replacement Oleos. This van, or it's friend next to it, has the earlier type of tubular instanter coupling as well; these were fairly rare. Edited June 25, 2017 by The Johnster Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 This van, or it's friend next to it, has the earlier type of tubular instanter coupling as well; these were fairly rare. As Plate 60 Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hump Shunter Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 This minute from the Freight Rolling Stock Standing Sub Committee 1954, shows the allocated vans, only the last Lot are shown to be fitted with Oleo Buffers. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 I was going to say they were dedicated to the Lever Brothers Margarine Works in Port Sunlight. Confirmed in post #20. Didn't know about Purfleet though. Stork Margarine was made there as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stork_(margarine) Speaking of Oleo... Whereas butter is made from the butterfat of milk, modern margarine is made mainly of refined vegetable oil and water, and may also contain milk. In some places in the United States it is colloquially referred to as "oleo", short for oleomargarine.[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margarine Jason 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 s Didn't know about Purfleet though. Stork Margarine was made there as well. Why I emphasised the LTSR 0-6-2T in photos The traffic between the two went on for many years with TEA converted for traffic between Purfleet and Port Sunlight many years later. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 Hmm. Seeing as my main layout is meant to be set around Chester then I can see a margarine train being a possibility. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenBill Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 Is it known if the vans worked in blocks to particular destinations? Thanks, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 Is it known if the vans worked in blocks to particular destinations? Thanks, Bill If you can find the company archives it may have details of where, how and tonnages of were sent! Ellesmere Port or Purleet Library or County Archives may have information! Mark Saunders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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