The Brown, the Red, and the Grey

[MikeOxon]

Just as some of us have come to accept that GWR wagons were painted Red through much of the 19th century, I have encountered a further twist.

 

In response to a question I raised about iron wagons on the Broad Gauge Society web, John Speller pointed me in the direction of Christopher Awdry's book 'Brunel's Broad Gauge Railway'.  In the section on Goods Wagons, Awdry makes a number of interesting statements about early wagon liveries.  He writes:

 

"Notes on an early 1840s drawing indicate that GWR wagon livery was Brown from the very early days"  Then, he reports that, in 1855, livery specifications state that "'break vans' should be  ... brown colour and varnished"  Tilt wagons were brown, as were the 'four-wheeled iron box'.  Timber coal wagons were to have " ... three coats brown"

 

Awdry then writes that "Later a red livery was introduced, probably around the mid-1860s, but this date has yet to be established" {Awdry was writing in 1992)

 

On this evidence, it seems that we must add Brown to the palette of GWR wagon colours, in addition to Red and Grey - all with uncertain transition dates and, presumably, the possibility that 'old' colours might persist for some time in some areas!

 

 

I have found that Awdry's book contains a lot of information and illustrations about the broad gauge that I have not seen elsewhere.  There are also statements about early carriage liveries, including the suggestion that lining was applied from a much earlier date than is often supposed.  He states that drawings describe black, following the beading, with a thin yellow line dividing the black from the brown.

 

All food for thought, as I embark on building model coaches from the early 1860s.

 

Mike

[BG John]

I think the earlier brown livery is well known, so wouldn't have thought it would change things. The wagon you illustrated is at Bodmin in 1899 (date from memory), so I'm pretty sure is long after the brown period, and I assume would be red. There's an article in a BGS Broadsheet that suggests that broad gauge brake vans remained brown until the end, even though narrow gauge ones became grey before 1892, but I still think red is most likely for wagons.

 

Incidentally, do you know anything about the wagon in your photos?

[MikeOxon]

Thank you John.  I'm still low down on a learning curve with BG matters, so had thought that the red colour might have come in as a protective coat for iron wagons.  That doesn't seem to tally, however, with Awdry's account. 

 

I just picked that photo to illustrate the effect of different colour schemes and know nothing more about it - I didn't even know when or where it was taken and had thought it was probably much earlier than 1899.  Good BG wagon photos seem quite hard to come by.

[BG John]

Sorry, it's allegedly c1890. I knew it was 189 something!

http://cornishmemory.com/item/WAT_03_036

[Steamport Southport]

Interesting headgear on the workers. Reminds me of the famous photograph of Welsh Pony with the driver wearing a bowler hat.

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/trainsandstuff/28494144724

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Mikkel]

Interesting, Mike. 
 
A recurring problem in our knowledge on early liveries, I think, is that we often have to rely on a single source or researcher, rather than having multiple sources confirming the same facts. For example, until John Lewis took a closer look, a lot of the assumptions regarding GWR wagon red came from Slinn's GW Way. But it seems that Slinn in turn relied on just a single source for his statements around that livery, ie in my 1978 edition he writes:
 
 "There is a positive assertion in Moore's Monthly Magazine for March 1896 that the general run of Great Western wagons was painted light red from the first days of the Railway's existence until the nineties but that goods brake vans had changed to a grey body colour during the previous decade. There is no reason to dispute this and it has not been refuted in any authorative source since then. It is not an unlikely proposition as other railways adopted this colour and, of the early paints, red lead was among the first in the field as preservative."
 
Now Moore's Monthly is not a bad source. It was a dedicated railway periodical and perhaps the first to run a series on "The colours of locomotives, carriages, and wagons" of UK railways. It was also backed up by the well regarded colour illustrations of E.T. Rudd (aka F. Moore). However, it is (i) still only a single source and (ii) there are many potential sources of error in Slinn's statement - the first and most obvious being that his quote above is based on an 1896 perception of a livery that began 50 years previously... 

 

So it's good to see alternative opinions and sources on the early wagon liveries, and some seemingly reliable sources. However, in similar fashion I wonder what Awdry based his hypothesis on that the red was introduced in the mid-1860s? Does he quote any sources for that?

 

PS: I have ordered a copy of the March 1896 article in Moore's Monthly from the National Archives, just to see what it actually says.

 

Edited to clarify

Edited August 22, 2017 by Mikkel

[MikeOxon]

Thoughtful comments, Mikkel.  I think I have been over-influenced by my own copy of GWW (1st.ed), especially the bit about "light red from the earliest days".  I was rather surprised to read the different views, given in Awdry's book and his references to early drawings (I wonder where they are?) and early livery specifications (ditto).  I suspect that the 1860 date for 'red' is still pure speculation.

 

There are so many traps for the unwary, including information derived from sources much later than the events they describe.  i notice Awdry uses many illustrations of Didcot (GWS) reconstructions of BG track, and we must always remember that these are based on much later information.  Actual construction methods varied over time and at different locations.  

 

I have read that several of the carriage illustrations in GWW are now thought to be based on later re-paints, which were produced to show various schemes that had been used by the GWR so, again, these are not actually contemporary with the dates they describe.  In the future, we may have to be careful over attaching too much 'authority' to photos of Didcot carriage restorations, to which the same caveats must apply.

 

I look forward to reading your conclusions from reading the original text of Moore's Monthly.

 

Mike

[Mikkel]

I'll report back when I have the article, Mike.

 

I have also taken up a (time-limited) digital subscription with Railway Magazine which provides access to a complete online archive of that magazine going back to 1897. It has some fascinating snippets on liveries (and many other interesting aspects) that I am reading my way through. Clearly some of the information we have from railway researchers comes from this mag.

[Northroader]

The wagon in the picture does look pretty ancient. Raised rounded ends, four end stanchions, and it looks somewhat narrower in width than most, accentuated by the hand brake lever overlapping the body. The lettering looks to be pukka GWR markings, but presumably won in one of their narrow guage conquests?

[BG John]

I believe it to be narrow gauge. The line up from Bodmin (Road) was opened in 1887. The extension down to the LSWR ar Boscarne Jct in 1888. As the LSWR was of course standard gauge, it would have been silly at this late date to build a broad gauge branch. After all, the final conversation from broad gauge was only 4 years away.

It's definitely narrow gauge, and Bodmin was always NG. Whether it was built by the GWR I don't know, as wagons built before the modern designs of the 1870s seem to be a complete mystery. I need suitable wagons for the late 1880s, and any old designs that were still around in 1905, but I've no idea how to find out.

[Northroader]

Thinking about this, the station opened in 1887, and also presumably the branch. The picture is quoted as around 1890, and track and buildings all look pristine, with n.g. track chaired on transverse sleepers, very much not a baulk road conversion. At Bodmin Road, the main line was broad gauge only until 1892. The other line from the Bodmin and wadebridge at Boscarne is stated to have opened in 1888. Did the branch just work as n.g. from the B& W end til conversion,or are the dates out?

[MikeOxon]

I think the earlier brown livery is well known .........

 

This comment set me searching again and I found an interesting post by Buffalo, posted back in 2013. 

 

Having embarked upon going around an old buoy again, I think it's worth recalling a couple of quotes from that post:

 

"...for much of the broad gauge era, it appears that many waggons were painted brown -- Sheppard and Lewis in GWW [i assume this is 2nd.ed] refer to an 1852 contract specifying brown all over. ... . They also note that coloured versions of Bourne's 1846 lithographs show a brown colour"

 

"...the Western Morning News report of May 1892 describing "...long trains of trucks arrived [in] their new red paint..." (as quoted by Sheppard and Lewis in GWW). Now, note the date and the word "new". These were surely new standard gauge waggons arriving at Plymouth to replace the previous broad gauge vehicles that had been taken away to the Swindon dump during the previous couple of weeks...."

 

Whatever the final answer proves to be - it ain't simple

[Il Grifone]

I think we are agreed that in 1892 the wagon colour  was red (with the probable exception of new/repainted brake vans). It would follow that new wagons would be this colour. I think the "new" here refers to fresh paint rather than any change in colour. (In any case, newspaper reporters are not known for their expertise on railway matters.)

 

A sudden thought occurred - unless broad gauge wagons were brown and narrow gauge red? Sheer conjecture of course! but it would roughly tie in with an 1860s date for a change to red.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Il Grifone

[BlackRat]

Re 'Break vans'......My dear old granddad, who started on the GWR goodness knows when.........used to tell me that brake vans were there to deal with a break in the train!

 

its a shame that some of the information re colours etc wasn't written down, but no doubt there may well be something hidden away in the depths of the National Archives etc.

 

We used red lead to undercoat service vehicle's, and the colour could indeed vary from red oxide to a brownish colour, depending on the manufacturer, how old the tin was and how well it was stirred.

 

You could have any finish (it was supposed to be dead matt) from matt through to gloss, again depending on how well it was stirred, usually with an old rusty bayonet!

[Miss Prism]

A sudden thought occurred - unless broad gauge wagons were brown and narrow gauge red? Sheer conjecture of course! but it would roughly tie in with an 1860s date for a change to red.

 

That's almost too logical and too sensible.

[BG John]

A sudden thought occurred - unless broad gauge wagons were brown and narrow gauge red? Sheer conjecture of course! but it would roughly tie in with an 1860s date for a change to red.

Don't even suggest it! Some of us do actually model the broad gauge, and that idea just doesn't bear thinking about .

 

It would mean I don't need to repaint my brown coal wagons though, as I've moved my modelling period forward!

[MikeOxon]

Sorry, it's allegedly c1890. I knew it was 189 something!

http://cornishmemory.com/item/WAT_03_036

Thank you for the reference to the Cornish Memory website.  There are lots of interesting early railway photos on the site.  I used the search tool to find 'railway' illustrations.

 

One coloured postcard, from the same Mac Waters collection as in your link, struck me as especially interesting in the present context.  See http://cornishmemory.com/item/WAT_9_083

 

I realise that this is a hand-coloured photograph but something must have led the colourist to choose red and brown for the wagons.  His choice of shade certainly matches the 'light red' description that is found in some references.

 

Mike

[Miss Prism]

One coloured postcard, from the same Mac Waters collection as in your link, struck me as especially interesting in the present context.  See http://cornishmemory.com/item/WAT_9_083

 

I realise that this is a hand-coloured photograph but something must have led the colourist to choose red and brown for the wagons.  His choice of shade certainly matches the 'light red' description that is found in some references.

 

Great find, Mike. Two things:

 

- I note the colourist has chosen not to show a red solebar or running gear on the red wagon.

 

- I suspect the brown wagon is a fish truck, some of which were in official 'NPCCS' brown from an early date.

[BG John]

A red wagon with 25" GW?

[Il Grifone]

Weren't fish trucks originally grey? (or red)? I 'm sure I've seen a picture of one that is definitely grey, rather than brown in one of the books. I'll try and find it. Also, I would have thought it would be unusual to find a fish wagon in mid-Cornwall. (Not impossible of course)

 

i wouldn't read too much into the photo tinting. I recall being given a kit for tinting photographs in my youth. The colours were some sort of 'wash' and there was a very limited palette. It can be seen that the artist has coloured one of the houses the same tint as the wagon. Also there is a red smudge on the dark coloured wagon which suggested they were tinted the same colour, but the darker wagon has come out a sort of grey/brown. The original grey tone of the end door mineral wagon can be seen in the centre of the 'G' and behind the number. Interestingly this is a type of wagon which the GWR is usually considered not to have owned apart from some purchased early in the twentieth century (1912 IIRC? - which could easily not be the case!). The untinted photo is here:

 

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~boneplace/stsibpics/nanpean.html

[MikeOxon]

A red wagon with 25" GW?

I somehow doubt whether that particular wagon was really red but the colourist obviously thought it to be an appropriate colour for a GWR wagon.  I wouldn't put it any stronger than that.  

 

If the other wagon was a fitted fish wagon, then brown would have been appropriate.  Of course, we don't know when the colour was added to the photo, either, but I thought it worthy of consideration.

 

I also notice that the colourist allowed the brown wash to go over the lettering of that wagon, which gave it an appropriate yellow hue but he carefully avoided the white GW on the red wagon, even to the extent of missing the spaces within the letters.  The colour wash has strayed a little in several places, so I doubt whether it tells us anything about the undergear. (as suggested by Miss P)

[Castle]

Thoughtful comments, Mikkel.  I think I have been over-influenced by my own copy of GWW (1st.ed), especially the bit about "light red from the earliest days".  I was rather surprised to read the different views, given in Awdry's book and his references to early drawings (I wonder where they are?) and early livery specifications (ditto).  I suspect that the 1860 date for 'red' is still pure speculation.

 

There are so many traps for the unwary, including information derived from sources much later than the events they describe.  i notice Awdry uses many illustrations of Didcot (GWS) reconstructions of BG track, and we must always remember that these are based on much later information.  Actual construction methods varied over time and at different locations.  

 

I have read that several of the carriage illustrations in GWW are now thought to be based on later re-paints, which were produced to show various schemes that had been used by the GWR so, again, these are not actually contemporary with the dates they describe.  In the future, we may have to be careful over attaching too much 'authority' to photos of Didcot carriage restorations, to which the same caveats must apply.

 

I look forward to reading your conclusions from reading the original text of Moore's Monthly.

 

Mike

Hi All,

 

There is a deeper point here in that with my preservationist or my model making hats on, myself and the rest of the bunch at Didcot have access to pretty much EXACTLY the same sources as everyone else when it comes to matters such as these. The guys a Didcot - particularly the carriage & Wagon department - may spend a lot more time pouring over the sources than the average enthusiast (present company probably excepted!) but they are still looking at the same sources. The only 2 differences are that firstly, with a precious few vehicles, some earlier livery evidence exists under later coats of paint but to which era do you associate a certain coat of paint and how does that change given the fact that it was old fashioned pigments exposed to the rigours of an operating steam railway environment? There is a loco toolbox squirrelled away somewhere that has hints of the Wolverhampton livery on it for example, a few remaining sections of the genuine broad gauge coach and the interior of the family saloon that survived by being a nice old lady's house to name but three treasures but you can only extrapolate so much from these fleeting remains. Secondly, the older volunteers had the chance to work with - in the society's early years at least - with genuine Swindon works / GWR veterans. This is of course an almost if not totally closed source these days so no longer available to anyone. The storys that one of my friends in the loco works tells about his friend Ernie Nutty for example are enough to really make you sit back and listen!

 

I have even heard the belief voiced that we have secret archives and knowledge that we don't share with anyone and this is quite frankly a bit silly... As both preservationists and historians, if we as a group can add to the sum of knowledge with a discovery that we can be very sure about, you can bet we would love to make our discovery public! When we restore a vehicle, we do it to the best of our ability, to the best match that can be made between the surviving evidence and modern materials and to the best of sum of the current knowledge on that given subject at that given moment. This isn't to say that I don't believe that some of my fellow volunteers aren't some of the greatest experts on this subject (any time spent with the likes of K14 Pete of this parish will convince you of that!) but if you hear them talk, like any good historian, you will hear them talk about the stuff they don't know about and the things they aren't sure about probably more that the stuff they do. Even the recent lining of No. 4079's tender threw up a few issues. How was the lining around the lower frames finished off at the ends? Seems simple until you start really looking at period pictures and realise just how infrequently pictures of any loco were taken at just the right angle and with both enough light and good enough quality film stock to reveal these details.

 

There might be a modern reason that something is the way it is. Another frequent criticism of the ex-GWR wagon restorations at Didcot is that the grey used is too dark. I have brought this up and the C&W team completely agree that it is too dark - when first applied. As the sunlight gets to it however, it fades down to a more correct shade and is therefore 'more correct' for longer as a result. I guess the thing to remember is that preservationists in the main - and I know a lot of the guys at Didcot are like me in this - love to talk about their work so don't be afraid to ask! We do our level best to get things as right as possible!

 

We are all just doing the best with what we've got and that's what makes it exciting!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[Guy Rixon]

Does anybody know the typical interval between repaints for GWR goods stock? I've read that the interval was 10-12 years for passenger stock.

 

I'm particularly interested as I have a couple of Y2 fruit vans to paint and their colour depends on the repaint dates as well as the change from red to grey. The vans were built in 1889 and 1890 (they are from different lots). I assume the introduction of grey paint in 1904. A repaint every 10 years means that the fruit vans would go grey in 1909 and 1910 respectively, so my 1909-ish layout should probably have one red and one grey. Repainting every 12 years means that both would still be red.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Guy Rixon

[Castle]

Hi Guy,

 

I'm not sure on this one but I have to say I asked the experts and that there is a reason why No. 47887 / 2356 at Didcot has been both grey and brown in preservation but not red...

 

Nobody's sure about the livery!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[MikeOxon]

The wagon in the picture does look pretty ancient. Raised rounded ends, four end stanchions, and it looks somewhat narrower in width than most, accentuated by the hand brake lever overlapping the body. The lettering looks to be pukka GWR markings, but presumably won in one of their narrow guage conquests?

Although the wagon I showed was narrow (i.e. Standard) gauge, there were Broad Gauge wagons in a similar rounded-end style.  There's a great assortment of wagons in this extract from one of the Swindon 'dump' photos of 1892.  If I'd had a clearer view, i could have used these for my colouring experiments.