JZ Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Despite the vain hope that one of our manufacturers would make some push-pull stock, I have decided to take the plunge and build some of my own. I have heard of conversions of Tri-ang/Hornby clerestories and the Mainline LMS suburbans. Has anyone converted the Ratio suburban kits? Although my layout has a Southern Region setting, I still wouldn't mind an ex-Midland set as well as a Southern one. Or do I take the plunge and get a pair of push-pulls from Roxey. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DS239 Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 If your layout is Southern-based,ex-LMS coaches wouldn't be suitable for use with SR loco's as the P/P gear wasn't compatible. However,I think the easiest route to an LMS P/P driving trailer is to fit end windows into one of the old Grafar suburban brake 3rd coaches,although the '00' ones haven't been produced for a while they're still readily available secondhand.Comet do the end as a part,-EM5,so quite a straightforward 'bash'.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jub45565 Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Suitable LMS parts - depending which variant one would want to do - are available from Comet, 5522 & Bill Bedford at least. The 'easiest' way would be the Mailcoach LNER version, which is a plastic kit. The Roxey ones, as you say, would be best for an SR based layout though. My knowledge of the SR is minimal, so I dont know whether using replacement sides and end with the Hornby SR offerings is a possible way forward? The Hornby model may not sound cheap, but if you look at the cost of full etched brass kits and the time taken to build them it may be a cost/time effective solution. HTH in some way, shape or form. Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etched Pixels Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Some BR era SR push pull stuff was converted from SR coaches but a lot of the SR stuff was from pre-grouping coaches either conversions or purpose built pre-group coaches such as the balloon trailers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Did you see these threads? LMS Push-Pull Coaches on the S&DJR Johnson 1P 58047 In the former, I concluded that one type could be built using a Comet M25 kit of a D1735 and converting it to a D1790 driving trailer using the Coment driving end (EM5). The first photo of the third post in the latter shows one view of the prototype. Larry also added a photo of the pipework on the ends in his Non-Corridor Suburban Coaches blog. Nick ps. I also have a couple of the Ratio brakes and would be very interested to learn more about converting these to pp types. edit: fixed trailer diagram number 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 There was an article in the Railway Modeller about a million years ago (OK, about 1979) where David Fereday-Glenn converted a couple of the Midland suburbans in to a passable ex-LBSC pull-push set. It wasn't a scale model, but it captured the general appearance of one of these. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 I did make a start on some Ratio conversions by cutting and shutting some sides but the job ground to a stand for some (probably domestic) reason - must fish them out again and carry on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 My coaches are not available as kits, but Comet produce the LMS D1735 non-corridor brake third (Ref: M25), which can also be built with a three-window driving end to produce a push & pull driving trailer. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted March 6, 2011 Author Share Posted March 6, 2011 If your layout is Southern-based,ex-LMS coaches wouldn't be suitable for use with SR loco's as the P/P gear wasn't compatible. I didn't explain that a future layout at the planning stage will most likely be set in the Somerset coalfield. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DS239 Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 I didn't explain that a future layout at the planning stage will most likely be set in the Somerset coalfield. I was involved in building an EM layout set in this area [in the vicinity of Radstock],unfortunately neither the S&D,nor the GW lines in BR days used P/P or autos in this area.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 I didn't explain that a future layout at the planning stage will most likely be set in the Somerset coalfield. Pray tell us more Julian. Are you looking at S&D or GW lines? Pre- or post-nationalisation? Things were a bit funny on the S&D lines after nationalisation as control passed first to Southern Region and then to Western, though much of the loco stock remained LMR in origin. Unfortunately all the branches that had, or might have had, P-P operation closed in the early '50s (even earlier on the GWR lines). There were definitely MR/LMS push-pull workings on the Wells branch in the 1930s as I seem to remember Casserley photographed one of them. I'll have to go and look it up... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DS239 Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 There were definitely MR/LMS push-pull workings on the Wells branch in the 1930s as I seem to remember Casserley photographed one of them. I'll have to go and look it up... Well,yes, I was going to mention that, but as JZ specifically mentioned 'Somerset Coalfield',I didn't,as the coalfield didn't extend to the Wells area.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Well,yes, I was going to mention that, but as JZ specifically mentioned 'Somerset Coalfield',I didn't,as the coalfield didn't extend to the Wells area.. In which case all you have is the main line between say Chilcompton and Wellow. Not much scope for P-P operation there unless one revives something like the Nettlebridge Valley proposal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted March 6, 2011 Author Share Posted March 6, 2011 This has aroused a bit of interest. So I will start another thread in the layouts section. The reason for the p-p at the moment is for little other reason that I like p-p stock, but I will need an excuse to run it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 I too am struggling with a scenario that allows me to run a 1P + PP driving trailer and a 7F on the same line. The nearest I've come so far is that the Bath-Binegar local was at one time a couple of (I think) LMS coaches behind a 1P. I think I may need to invoke Rule No 1 Nick ps. of course, if you go for CK's Engine Wood scenario, you could run an LMS PP from Green Park to Hallatrow via the Cam Valley Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 ..... I think I may need to invoke Rule No 1 .... Is that the one (oh, a pun!) that goes'.... It's my layout and I will run what I like/want....' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 6, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 6, 2011 This has aroused a bit of interest. So I will start another thread in the layouts section. The reason for the p-p at the moment is for little other reason that I like p-p stock, but I will need an excuse to run it. There were a number of parts of Southern Railway and BR(S) where Pull-Push would have seemed suitable, but was never used - the North Cornwall and North Devon lines, for example. Stretching the truth to include a P-P working in a plausible area seems a trivial crime in comparison to some of the compromises we have to accept, frankly! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Is that the one (oh, a pun!) that goes'.... It's my layout and I will run what I like/want....' Yes, that's the one I had in mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 I have now ordered some parts from Comet and have a couple of Ratio Midland sub's on order. I hope to make a passable push-pull set.. Having a look around for a 1P kit now. And how would I use it I hear you ask, or perhaps not. Shepton Mallett-Somercombe market days only. As for the Southern set, I cannot find the driving trailer (4C27) listed on the Roxey site. Awaiting a reply from them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Colin Posted March 7, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 7, 2011 Unless I missed something somewhere (in which case - sorry), there's been no mention of the ex-Airfix/Dapol 57' lav. n/c stock - were any of the brake thirds converted for p/p working? It just seems a fairly easy job to fit a driving end to a brake third - too easy, probably! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 Unless I missed something somewhere (in which case - sorry), there's been no mention of the ex-Airfix/Dapol 57' lav. n/c stock - were any of the brake thirds converted for p/p working? It just seems a fairly easy job to fit a driving end to a brake third - too easy, probably! I've been looking for some on ebay, but they seem to be attracting silly money at the moment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Colin Posted March 7, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 7, 2011 I've been looking for some on ebay, but they seem to be attracting silly money at the moment. That is expensive! I just wish Hornby or whoever would bring 'em out again. I have a few Airfix examples stashed away for future projects, if I have any surplus to foreseeable requirements I'll PM you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 I have now ordered some parts from Comet and have a couple of Ratio Midland sub's on order. I hope to make a passable push-pull set.. Having a look around for a 1P kit now. And how would I use it I hear you ask, or perhaps not. Shepton Mallett-Somercombe market days only. As for the Southern set, I cannot find the driving trailer (4C27) listed on the Roxey site. Awaiting a reply from them. The Ratio bits should do the business as the units used on the Wells branch were exMR panelled stock I believe. Craftsman do a kit for the 1P in either Belpaire or round top versions. They too sell through eBay. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 None of the LMS Lavatory brake thirds were converted to push & pull working so forget the Airfix conversion. There is no easy solution without building a kit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 ... the units used on the Wells branch were exMR panelled stock I believe. See the links in one of my earlier posts (#5). I'm reasonably convinced that in the final years of the Wells branch a steel sided LMS D1790 driving trailer was in use. There are several photos of this vehicle. There is at least one photo of a panelled 5 compartment trailer behind a BR liveried 58086 which is said to be a converted S&D coach. Another, dated 1949, also shows a panelled 5 compartment vehicle from the driving end. It has four windows side by side at the top centre of the end and so looks rather strange. Yet another photo (undated) shows a panelled vehicle with an indeterminate number of compartments. This one has four windows in the driving end at a more conventional height, with a blank panel between the two pairs. Whether any of these are LMS conversions, I have no idea. However, none of the photos I've seen of panelled P&P stock claim to show LMS vehicles. I'd certainly be very interested to learn more about the early history of P&P working on the branch. Does anyone know if it started in S&D days (I've yet to find a photo of any of the early S&D 1Ps fitted for P&P working) or was it introduced after the LMS takeover in 1930? Nick edit: sorry, should have said the photos referred to above are in the Burnham to Evercreech Jn Middleton Press book, Stephen Austin's Somerset & Dorset Joint Railway: a View from the past, and The Somerset & Dorset Files, No 4. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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