Those 0ld Lima Siphons.

[Mallard60022]

Good afternoon. No credit for this idea; it was gwrrob's and it turns out to be quite a good one (actually his ideas are always good - honest).

Those old Lima Siphon Gs (yes I have about four lurking somewhere) can be enhanced by applying a Comet Models LMS underframe (50'). It fits almost exactly.

Think it suits the D1441 & not all other Diagrams.

gwrrob will be applying all the under bits (bogies etc.) so watch out for his posts on this one.

Cheers, P @ 36E.

[jwealleans]

Hi Phil,

 

I'm a complete ignoramus when it comes to things GWR but you can also update them to a BR built version using a handy component pack available from Blacksmith. It also contains a chassis but includes side vents and new corridor connectors. This one started life as a Palethorpes van.

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2018 by jwealleans

[Mallard60022]

Oh wow. J. That looks fantastic. I wonder if gwrrob knows this? I'll get my lightweight coat (it is summer) right away.

As you know I'm a complete beginner when it comes to doing vans and coaches. Just had to alter my Horsebox 'cause I didn't see how the brake gear should have been until cheesyplant advised me DOH!

It does so help when you (oh Vidor'sTocatta is just blasting out on R4 - how appropriate for looking at these pics & spine chilling) have knowledge or a brain that helps you seek that.

I'll search for the Blacksmith kit; it looks lovely; certainly a silk purse job.

 

You OK by the way?

 

Phil

[Mike G]

That looks the business, who's couplings are you using? How did you find the Blacksmiths underframe...easy as Comets? I have a few of these kicking about - the Lima siphons that is, looks like a worthwhile upgrade.

 

cheers

 

Mike.

[gwrrob]

Oh wow. J. That looks fantastic. I wonder if gwrrob knows this? I'll get my lightweight coat (it is summer) right away.

I'll search for the Blacksmith kit; it looks lovely; certainly a silk purse job.

Phil

 

Yes I did know about their kit but you won't find it on the website at the moment.Problems I think. From what I remember the Blacksmiths 'kit' comes with an etch you glue to the plastic underframe then add the detailing bits from castings.I do like the corridor connector etchings JW.

[jwealleans]

Now then, I'm dredging my memory... I think you'd have to go back to RMWeb 2 to find this discussed in any detail.... I've just had a look and the centre part of the chassis is definitely etched. There are bits of plastic on it but I can't tell if they're parts of the original or bits I've stuck on. I have found a photo of the chassis under construction, so perhaps you can tell:

 

 

I seem to remember having to supply some of the brake bits, although some were included.

 

What also sticks in my mind is a discussion with Dave Smith (for it was then he) about bogies... the Siphon component pack came with one type of bogie but either that wasn't right for what I wanted or there was some other question over them.... in the end I bought the pack and another set of different bogies, used the different bogies on the Siphon and the ones from the pack on a Kirk 'Monster' I did at the same time. I expect someone who knows their way around these things can say which bogie is what.

 

The couplings are Bill Bedford, which I use on nearly all my corridor stock.

 

Both Siphon and Monster run on Thurston, so anyone interested is welcome to have a look at either Manchester or Tolworth later in the year.

Edited October 16, 2018 by jwealleans

[gwrrob]

I think the bogies in the Blacksmith kit are the American type.I'm using the 9' pressed steel when I get round to ordering some.

 

Does anyone know if the ends were black or brown on the inside framed type.I can't tell from the colour photos I've seen that Captain Kernow took a while back here. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/album/366-siphon-g-detail-photos/

[hmrspaul]

Some prototype inspiration here http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrsiphon especially for those interested in the blue period.

 

Paul Bartlett

[Coach bogie]

A good reference on these is the late Jack Slinn's Siphons book.

 

There are alternative bogies that can be used. The 7ft heavy duty and 8 ft 6" ex articulated bogies were also used. I have used both from 247 Developments. Some time ago built a BR version with the vents for a friend using the complete Blacksmith kit, but substituted cast heavy duty bogies, mainly to get some weight where it matters.I had problems getting the bogie height correct, it appeared to be riding high and I remember spending alot of time with a file to get it right.

 

When I came to do my own, i could not get hold of the Blacksmith etches so just uprated the Lima underframe. Cast bogies as above, but you have to drill out the underframe to stop the wheel rubbing if you want to set the bogies at the correct height. I changed the bufferes for Comet cast GWR ones and used castings from stock for the battery boxes, dynanmo etc.

 

I have two other BR ones to do for the same friend which will use the Lima underframe. One will be the newspaper version with the top louvres plated over and windowed as appropriate and the second as 'Jwealleans' but after the shutters had been plated over as shown below.

 

There is an ex ambulance version with roof vents and other differences that tempts as well.

 

Nice models everyone.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[hmrspaul]

A good reference on these is the late Jack Slinn's Siphons book.

 

Mike Wiltshire

The reference to this is Slinn J N & Clarke B K (1987) GWR Siphons pub. by HMRS 122 pages. ISBN 0 902835 10 6 A revision is currently being worked on by John Lewis. The first edition discusses bogies, brandings and condemnation dates.

 

Paul Bartlett

[Horsetan]

I think the bogies in the Blacksmith kit are the American type.....

 

They are. 9ft American. Neat etches, which match reasonably OK with Bill Bedford's leaf-sprung bogies.

[Galtee More]

Not only are the bogies of the wrong type, being BR1s, if I remember correctly, but the bogie centres are incorrect too.

 

I detailed a Lima Siphon G many years ago now (It's somewhere up in the loft at present.). At the time, someone, possibly ABS, did a kit which included two cast whitemetal plates with a locating spigot on the top side at one end and a new bogie mounting boss on the other side at the other end. You hacked off the Lima's big plastic boss, then located the plate with the spigot in the resulting hole, bonded it to the plastic and fitted your new bogies to the boss. Bob's your uncle: bogies at the correct centres and it makes a world of difference.

 

I'm not sure now, but parts for replacement GWR bogies may have been included in the kit. I know it was my very first effort at soldering whitemetal and it was ..... well, a disaster. So I fitted a pair of GEM Equispring bogies in the end. They're not quite right, due to the lack of footsteps in the correct places.

 

Is this kit still available from ABS, or whoever, I wonder ?

 

Ian

[Waveydavey]

When I did my Siphon I bought both the body and chassis etches, they are seperate packs. The body etches were fine if a little old skool and hand drawn. I found very little of the chassis etch kit to be of any use for the BR build that I was doing and ended up only using the battery boxes. It seemed to me that the chassis etches were intended for the Airfix G & H and weren't a good fit on the Lima underframe. I made up the truss rods from Plastic L section and used ABS BR brake and dynamo gear with an adapted Parkside brake lever.

 

Currently my G runs on MJT bogies which don't have any step boards. Ideally I'd like to fit the Bill Bedford sprung bogies I have but I'm struggling to find the correct 9' pressed steel sideframes with the correct length springs and steps. Anybody got any ideas?

 

Cheers

 

 

 

David

[Fat Controller]

David,

Mine were from ABS, who list both 'heavy-duty' and standard 9' Pressed Steel bogies.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Mod5
To remove unnecesary quote

[iL Dottore]

Nice work and a very helpful thread. I have one or two Lima Siphons in my "to do" box and your work has given me some very useful tips

 

F

[Mallard60022]

To keep it all simple I think the Comet underframe with bits from MJT/Frogmore/wherever is an inexpensive and easy way to get a better looking Siphon. Good idea gwrrob.

Great that so many folk have come up with the info on bogies and stuff though; invaluable - thanks.

P @ 36E

[The Stationmaster]

To keep it all simple I think the Comet underframe with bits from MJT/Frogmore/wherever is an inexpensive and easy way to get a better looking Siphon. Good idea gwrrob.

Great that so many folk have come up with the info on bogies and stuff though; invaluable - thanks.

P @ 36E

 

Agreed - I happen to have a number of them long ago 'put aside for a rainy day'

[Captain Kernow]

Does anyone know if the ends were black or brown on the inside framed type.I can't tell from the colour photos I've seen that Captain Kernow took a while back here

IIRC those ends were brown.

[chrisf]

I was wondering - ought this thread to be migrated to the GW Coaching Stock Group, as the Siphon G is non-passenger coaching stock?

 

Chris

[10800]

I was wondering - ought this thread to be migrated to the GW Coaching Stock Group, as the Siphon G is non-passenger coaching stock?

 

Better to link it than migrate it - then it's not 'lost' to the general forum. This applies in general to groups IMO, because some topics which may seem to be a good fit actually contain other useful stuff which is external to the group remit.

[Adrian Wintle]

To keep it all simple I think the Comet underframe ...

 

The only real issue with the LMS underframe is that the centre of the truss structure is too wide. The verticals line up with the edges of the doors when the should be at least a scale foot further towards the centre of the coach.

 

Adrian

[Timara]

Not only are the bogies of the wrong type, being BR1s, if I remember correctly, but the bogie centres are incorrect too.

You are indeed correct Ian! A discrepancy of 2 scale feet as it happens. The correct wheelbase should be 35ft (140mm) and the model scales out at 132mm.

 

My probable fix for this will be making new pivot plates at the prescribed distance apart - centrelines 4mm outwards from the originals.

 

The only real issue with the LMS underframe is that the centre of the truss structure is too wide. The verticals line up with the edges of the doors when the should be at least a scale foot further towards the centre of the coach.

 

Adrian

 

To be honest, it's for that above reason that I'd considered keeping the trusses and replacing the battery boxes with etches/castings.

Seeing as I have about half a dozen of these, one of which will become an O.62, this thread is proving very interesting to me indeed. I rather fancy one of the Ambulance conversions too, seeing as they'd be in general parcel use during the 1950s/60s.

With regard to bogies, how accurate are those that come with the older outside-framed Siphon? Seeing as I'm replacing these with MJT cosmetic outers on CCUs, it seems a shame to waste these. Thoughts?

Cheers,

[Adrian Wintle]

The bogies on the outside-framed Siphons are reasonable representations of GWR 9' bogies, but are actually not appropriate for MOST o/f Siphon Gs (they mostly seem to have had 9' American bogies). You could move the bogies from an o/f Siphon onto an inside-framed one, and get some 9' American bogies (the CooperCraft ones from their Monster kit are a cheap option, MJT and others do more expensive options) for the o/f Siphon.

 

Adrian

[chrisf]

One important issue not covered in the Jack Slinn/Bernard Clarke book or the list of amendments issued by the Great Western Study Group is the varying types of vertical planking on Siphons G. If you can bear to look at the Lima moulding you will find that the doors comprise three planks of equal width. A far more common configuration, found on 90% plus of the vehicles, is of two narrow planks flanking two standard width ones. Before you say "oh well, I'll give it new doors", look at the non-door parts of the sides, at which point rage is permitted. Another variation has narrower planks - five on each door and pro rata on the whole vehicle. Given the building dates I would guess, inspired by the late Sir Terence [spike to you] Milligan, that Swindon couldn't get the wood. There was a war on, you know.

 

My solution will be very heavy weathering.

 

Chris

[Mallard60022]

My solution will be very heavy weathering.

 

Well Chris, what would we do without your astounding knowledge of GWR stuff? Respect.

I think you are really saying (as you also mention there was a war on), weather to achieve total camouflage so you can't actually see the L**a thing at all . Corp Milligan would have liked that option.

Seriously, having 'started' this thread I am just astounded at the depth of knowledge of folk on this web. This must be why it is so successful as where else can you be sure to get, should you require it, loads of info before starting a project. OK so sometimes things conflict and views differ, but no matter.

Slight problem though, I always seem to end up spending money on something I never intended to; in this instance it could be parts for a 'proper' Siphon

P @ 36E