BR 410 BEP EMU's and their buffets

[Wild Boar Fell]

Hello Everyone,

I am trying to design a buffet car for a class 410 BEP that will plonk onto the Bachmann chassis from the CEP, unfortunately I know very little about EMU's especially these, I am therefore asking does anyone know of any modifications carried out or features that were changed and what would be correct for the 1960's, but also if anyone knows of any drawings or detailed photos of these that I can use for reference I would be very appreciative. I am also wondering what changes to the chassis are require to make it represent the buffet vehicle.

Thanks in advance,

Regards,

Wild Boar Fell

[RFS]

Some pictures here - http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/class411_1.html .  One ex-BEP buffet car has been preserved on the East Kent Railway although refurbished compared to the 1960s.  A visit with a camera perhaps?

[SRman]

Something to be wary of too: I think the first two (prototype) units had a different design of buffet vehicle to the later production runs. The roof details could vary somewhat as well as the first units had 1951 EMU controls with external roof conduits on all vehicles. 

 

Early on, the production batch from 7002 onwards had the bogies on the buffet vehicles swapped to the Commonwealth type. The second production batch had Commonwealth bogies from new.

[Gwiwer]

7001/2 (along with pre-production Ceps 7101-4) differed internally quite significantly from all the rest.  The most apparent difference to the untrained eye was the use of wooden panelling very similar to loose-coupled Mk1 stock of the time whereas the production runs used Melamine as was also used on later Mk1 loose-coupled stock built from around the same time.

 

The buffet cars differed from the roof to the underframe so unless you want to build 7001 or 7002 steer away from those numbers.   Units to 7011 were built for the Mid-Sussex line where they replaced 4Buf units; they inevitably strayed onto Brighton main line and east / west coast line duties as well and were used occasionally as 4Big substitutes being for all practical purposes fully interchangeable.  

 

I don't know of a conversion kit but the under frame of the buffet car carried a lot more than the trailer second it effectively replaced in the set.  IIRC the Beps had gas cooking - gas bottles were stored in a padlocked cage slung under the kitchen area.  Sink drains, staff toilet waste and other detail differences were all visible to the lineside observer.  The buffet car in many respects more closely resembled an RUO than anything else - it was equipped to serve fully plated meals for instance though that service was seldom (if ever) called for.   

[Oldddudders]

Someone will remind me - which was the Girling 12-car, with disc brakes? Was it 7003, and which were the CEPs? I know it was great on its own, but once it was split up and intermixed with other units, the different braking rates caused overheating etc. Some/all of it sat in the middle siding at Clapham for some years. Another BEP to avoid in its early days.

[Gwiwer]

I remember there was a rake sidelined for some time but which ones they were escapes me now.  I also need to correct one point above in that the Phase 1 4-Bep units built for the Mid-Susses route were 7003-7012 (not 7011) and of course 7001/2 joined them as common-user units on the SR Central Division.  There was no obvious attempt made to keep the prototypes together nor any need to do so.

[Wild Boar Fell]

Hello Everyone,

Thanks for your help on this subject, typically I had been using a photo of one of the prototypes in my research, however from checking other photos it appears what I have done so far is correct for the production ones. Unfortunately the preserved one is a bit too far away to go and photograph, I have hover got some basic dimensions for a very old Model Railway Constructor article, and the br diagram book so shall keep on progressing whilst finding more photos.

This is what I have managed to work out so far,

Kitchen side,

Corridor side,

Thanks again,

Wild Boar Fell

[talisman56]

I remember there was a rake sidelined for some time but which ones they were escapes me now.  I also need to correct one point above in that the Phase 1 4-Bep units built for the Mid-Susses route were 7003-7012 (not 7011) and of course 7001/2 joined them as common-user units on the SR Central Division.  There was no obvious attempt made to keep the prototypes together nor any need to do so.

 

When I was regularly travelling on the LB main line, the knowledgeable were aware that the 'prototype' Bep/Cep units (7001/02, 7101-04) were 1 ton a car lighter than the production units (apart from the Bep buffet car). It was probably a fanciful notion that the performance of any train that had a prototype in the rake was a little bit livelier than usual...

[robertcwp]

Here is the buffet from 7003:

 

S69002_Redhill_1979 by robertcwp, on Flickr

[Wild Boar Fell]

Hello Everyone,

Just a quick question (thanks for all the help so far)

I am nearing the end with the BEP, but I would like to know if the double doors have grab handles, I cannot quite tell from photos but I guess they don't as the BG's don't, also does anyone know of any photos/ dimensions of the cylinder underneath seen in the above photo?

Cheers,

Wild Boar Fell

[meld]

Hello Everyone,

Just a quick question (thanks for all the help so far)

I am nearing the end with the BEP, but I would like to know if the double doors have grab handles, I cannot quite tell from photos but I guess they don't as the BG's don't, also does anyone know of any photos/ dimensions of the cylinder underneath seen in the above photo?

Cheers,

Wild Boar Fell

After looking at the Photo above I would say that it Does have a Grab ( commode ) Handle on the Plain door of the set of double doors, Although set higher above the door handle in this case. Sorry to add to the confussion. .

 

Also there is a Picture in " Slam Doors On The Southern" Page 53 that shows the other side of an unRe-Furb'd BEP Buffet and it too definately has a Grab Handle on the plain door of the pair. 

 

The 'Cylinder' Is, IIRC, actually an MG ( Motor/Generator) Set.

 

The preserved BEP Buffet ( on the East Kent Rly ) is from a Re-Furb'd set and apart from the red 'BUFFET' stripe looks nothing like the originals .......... 

 

Mike

Edited August 22, 2013 by meld

[Enterprisingwestern]

Model Railway Constructor October 1961 and the Goulding book have drawings, but I'm not 100% sure of their accuracy, no doubt others can confirm/deny?

 

Mike.

[Wild Boar Fell]

Hello Mikes,

Thanks both of you for you help.

I have now updated the model to include the handles and a few other details.

I have tracked down a copy of MRC and the drawings were used to help work out the locations of all the doors and windows, I don't have the Goulding book but will look out for it. I am also hoping to have a test shot made in the next few days so will put up some photos when they arrive.

I have attached some images to show my interpretation of the BEP.

Regards,

Wild Boar Fell

[Enterprisingwestern]

If you talk nicely to that nice Mr Hanson, he might be able to help with the etched window frames and Laserglazing.

 

Mike.

[Wild Boar Fell]

Cheers Mike,

Thanks for the suggestion, 

I am actually going to try and re use as much of the Bachmann glazing as possible to try and get it to match the other coaches, if that doesn't work then that is always an option.

Regards,

Wild Boar Fell

[leopardml2341]

Any further news - been watching with interest............

[Wild Boar Fell]

Hi,

Just a quick update, the coach sides have been test printed and assembled, the window apertures are currently too small (fractionally) and the end roof profile needs a little bit of fettling which will be done before production. I am also going to look at the option of fitting the Hatchette mark 1 windows which are shallower than the Bachmann ones. The body side grilles will also be deepened to make them more visible. Unfortunately a lack of money and free time has slowed the project down a bit, but it is still progressing slowly.

Regards,

Wild Boar Fell

[leopardml2341]

Any further news - been watching with interest............

 

 

Ditto - a long time since last update...................

[BruceV]

Any further updates, over 2 years since last update.   I'm interested to know how you have progressed with this project.

[leopardml2341]

Ditto - a long time since last update...................

 

Any further updates, over 2 years since last update.   I'm interested to know how you have progressed with this project.

 

As I now sit near to him at work, I'll give him a kick up the @rse gentle reminder

[Wild Boar Fell]

I really should follow the topics I start... was it really 3 years ago?

Since the update there was a high quality test print done which fitted onto the Bachmann chassis, however it suffered from distortion and warping over a relatively short time. That coupled with the price (circa £70 at cost) meant it took a back seat. More recently I have had discussions with Phatbob & Leopard about using a Silhouette Cameo cutter to produce overlays for the Bachmann body. I have one of these units, but have not yet used it. I won't promise anything but I am may with Andy's 'gentle reminders' get around to something. If I do, news will probably be over on my 3D printing blog (see signature).

 

I am slightly reluctant to take this back up though as previous project have been duplicated:

Warflat - Bachmann

ICI Hopper - Oxford

FFA/FGA - Bachmann

80's Containers - C-Rail

Brake Tender - Dapol

45t Breakdown Crane - Bachmann

Tafoos (Biomass Hopper) - Hornby

LMS D1659 Goods Brake - Bachmann

Class XX - X (No I won't spoil that that announcement)

 

Not really a very useful post I appreciate, but hopefully this explains the current situation.

Wild Boar Fell

[leopardml2341]

I really should follow the topics I start... was it really 3 years ago?

Since the update there was a high quality test print done which fitted onto the Bachmann chassis, however it suffered from distortion and warping over a relatively short time. That coupled with the price (circa £70 at cost) meant it took a back seat. More recently I have had discussions with Phatbob & Leopard about using a Silhouette Cameo cutter to produce overlays for the Bachmann body. I have one of these units, but have not yet used it. I won't promise anything but I am may with Andy's 'gentle reminders' get around to something. If I do, news will probably be over on my 3D printing blog (see signature).

 

I am slightly reluctant to take this back up though as previous project have been duplicated:

Warflat - Bachmann

ICI Hopper - Oxford

FFA/FGA - Bachmann

80's Containers - C-Rail

Brake Tender - Dapol

45t Breakdown Crane - Bachmann

Tafoos (Biomass Hopper) - Hornby

LMS D1659 Goods Brake - Bachmann

Class XX - X (No I won't spoil that that announcement)

 

Not really a very useful post I appreciate, but hopefully this explains the current situation.

Wild Boar Fell

The bruises aren't visible - honest

[Joseph_Pestell]

I really should follow the topics I start... was it really 3 years ago?

Since the update there was a high quality test print done which fitted onto the Bachmann chassis, however it suffered from distortion and warping over a relatively short time. That coupled with the price (circa £70 at cost) meant it took a back seat. More recently I have had discussions with Phatbob & Leopard about using a Silhouette Cameo cutter to produce overlays for the Bachmann body. I have one of these units, but have not yet used it. I won't promise anything but I am may with Andy's 'gentle reminders' get around to something. If I do, news will probably be over on my 3D printing blog (see signature).

 

I am slightly reluctant to take this back up though as previous project have been duplicated:

Warflat - Bachmann

ICI Hopper - Oxford

FFA/FGA - Bachmann

80's Containers - C-Rail

Brake Tender - Dapol

45t Breakdown Crane - Bachmann

Tafoos (Biomass Hopper) - Hornby

LMS D1659 Goods Brake - Bachmann

Class XX - X (No I won't spoil that that announcement)

 

Not really a very useful post I appreciate, but hopefully this explains the current situation.

Wild Boar Fell

 

Certainly understand your reluctance about this. It has taken Bachmann an age to come up with the 2HAP that they already had the bits for. So it may take a very long time before they use the CEP parts that they already have and make a BEP. But surely it makes sense for them to do as it would also encourage more sales of CEPs.

[Wild Boar Fell]

For anyone interested, Bachmann have now announced the 4-BEP for their 2017 range.

 

Wild Boar Fell

[Gwiwer]

In green SYP and in b/g but not in plain green nor plain blue syp.  Bachmann has released Cep units in all the foregoing though the plain blue units were commissioned by Modelzone.  Maybe we'll get a plain green Bep another year.