Andy Y Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Limited Edition News - O Gauge and OO Gauge Models from Dapol - a statement In our determination to provide high-quality detailed models we are constantly reviewing progress of our projects. Sometimes this can reveal that changes need to be made, most of which are invisible to our customers. After careful consideration we have decided to manage the production of our Adams O2 and LSWR Gate Stock OO Gauge models directly with the factory in China, this being the same factory that built our award-winning OO Gauge Beattie Well Tank. We have asked Dave Jones of DJModels to oversee these projects which will continue the close working relationship we have had since we started commissioning exclusive models. Work on the OO Gauge Tiger Clay Wagons, Bulleid Diesel locos and D6xx Warships also continues as well as other yet-to-be announced projects, all of which will be produced under a new commercial agreement of which details will be given in due course. All existing orders for these products will be held and there is no need for customers to contact us about this change unless they have changed their phone number, email address or house address and not previously advised us.A consequence of this decision is that Dapol no longer feel able to progress the O Gauge Beattie Well Tank project and associated clay wagons. We had been working with Dapol to find alternative ways of producing this model, but the pre-orders have been disappointingly low with fewer than 200 orders placed. This is despite a huge discount being offered to encourage and reward customers who placed a pre-order and it being made clear that the pre-order could be cancelled at any time. While we may look at this again in the future for the time being we are going to concentrate on our core OO gauge market. We have already emailed and written to all customers who still held a pre-order for the O Gauge models with details of a special offer to reward their loyalty and patience. Even after the above changes we had around £275k of special projects remaining with Dapol and it was our intention to continue with these, but Dapol have cancelled all of these with the exception of the OO Gauge models of D1003V Western Ruler and B850ZA and B850ZB Weathered Silver Bullets which are already in production. Our exclusive Class 73s, Bubble Cars, Turbots and Class 22s have all been cancelled and we are obviously very sorry and disappointed that Dapol have chosen to do this. This unexpected act means that we have had to remove these models from our website and have not yet had chance to contact everybody who placed pre-orders but will do so as soon as possible. We thank all our customers for their patience and understanding for bearing with us and with our new agreement in place we expect rapid progress to be made on the Gate Stock and O2 models and look forward to sharing positive news about these very soon. Regular updates are available by subscribing to our weekly email newsletter at www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
neal Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 DJM 1: 0 Dapol (o.g.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Massive dummy throwing - 275k of projects cancelled... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
truffy Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 DJM 1: 0 Dapol (o.g.) Without knowing Dapol's position on this, anything is just speculation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cary hill Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 That statement doesn't make for great reading, but perhaps it's just another indicator that the "You've never had it so good" era of RTR is for various reasons, unfortunately coming to an end. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
m0rris Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 That does seem quite likely unfortunately... it is certainly going to be interesting times ahead. Having read the announcement fully it does seem like a massive expulson of toys from the pram. I doubt we'll ever here any more of it/find out the nitty gritty detail but you do have to wonder where this leave Dapol, who have just thrown out over 1/4 of million pounds worth of special projects, and Kernow, who potentially have a large sum of money to be reinvested. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rembrow Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 This decision seems to follow another similar decision by Model Rail in recent months, moving their USATank commission from Dapol to Bachmann, where their statements indicated it was to get the project back on to a time frame that was acceptable to Model Rail. Kernow had already announced on their website some weeks ago, that they had cancelled the arrangements with Dapol for the design and production of the Tiger Rail china clay hoppers, as their had been no progress in productions of the CAD designs for over 12 months and stated they were seeking other design arrangements. Bearing in mind those decisions, I'm not surprised that Kernow have now decided to move all other commissioned model work. This does not look good for Dapol as with apparent delays/lack of progress on these commissioned items, they also have a large number of new items from 2011/12/13 in their catalogues with no information on progress for a long time. I recall that the '00' gauge class 121 and 122 diesel units were brought forward to a 'manufacturing slot' (their words) in autumn 2013 caused by the delay in the Class 21/29 design work. Those are models already produced by Dapol in 'n' gauge, so there seemed to be validity in those statements made a year ago, however months of no news have gone by nand little likelihood of seeing those models this year Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Hi Rembrow, If it''s any help with clarification, when I left neither a full size class 121 or 122 had been laser scanned. Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rembrow Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 As someone with pre orders for the O2, Gate Stock coaches, Bulleid Diesel and D600 Diesel I am grateful to Kernow for their review of these projects and for making what must be difficult decisions. They have invested heavily in these projects, to a level not seen previously from a retailer commissioning manufacturing projects. I am pleased that they have reached agreement with Dave Jones of DJ Models, as Dave has shown the quality of modelmaking that can be produced under his leadership, including the commissioned Beattie tanks and Sentinels. I'm glad and pleased that Kernow intend to continue with these projects, as I never thought there would be a chance to have a Bulleid Diesel or D600 Warship as a rtr model, this is from someone who has previously built both from the excellent Silver Fox kit range Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
miles73128 Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Oh dear! This is a worry. I wonder what the status of Model Rail special edition class 73 128 will be? If I understand correctly, the D600 and Bulleid are still on? Well done to Kenrow for keeping us informed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 8, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 8, 2013 I'm sure folk commissioning work are in a rather awkward position, and maybe always will be, when they are heavily committed to any particular intermediary in the chain to the end producing factory in China but if there are delays or problems it may be better to take a fresh approach rather than wait with, maybe, limited flow of information on progress etc. What has happened in this case is of course far beyond us mere mortals who are the end customers although I'm more than happy to see that my two pre-ordered D6XX are 'protected' along - it appears - with models which are actually Kernow original tooling rather than just livery variations on someone else's tooling. That I hope is good news for Kernow who have done an enormous amount to help bring a fresh and vigorous approach to a critical (for many of us) part of our hobby - best of luck to 'em all, and their 'overseer' Dave Jones. So while Kernow's position appears pretty sound and encouraging, with positive hints for the future as well, I do echo rembrow's comments about Dapol's situation - with Kernow being the second commissioner, to our recent knowledge, to turn elsewhere. And this, so it might appear, after development of products was not only underway but seemingly might have had, since the date of announcement, sufficient time to become quite advanced? It will be interesting to hear what (if anything?) Dapol have to say as while one might be reminded of one of Lady Bracknell's comments there is the possibility that with less commissioned work in hand they might be better placed to advance their own projects such as the SPUs and streamlined railcars? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted November 8, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 8, 2013 It will be interesting to hear what (if anything?) Dapol have to say as while one might be reminded of one of Lady Bracknell's comments there is the possibility that with less commissioned work in hand they might be better placed to advance their own projects such as the SPUs and streamlined railcars? IIRC Dave Jones mentioned on another thread that the streamlined railcar is inaccessible for anyone to laser scan and thus a practial problem for anyone undertaking the task? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Trying to stand back from the gossip/details I think this marks something of a turning point , simply because of the number of straws as to how the RTR business is developing in this particular wind. We now have a retailer commissioning RTR models directly from a factory in China under their own project supervision, and not working through an established "RTR manufacturer brand". Kernow here are intending to operate on exactly the same basis as say Hornby - except that they already have a mail order retail distribution channel in place. In retrospect it looks like an obvious "business model" - except that nobody had done it before, apart from Realtrack, who are not quite the same in retail terms. Once RTR is being produced to order by an outsourced factory in China, it opens up the game to lots of people - whether DJM Models, Realtrack, Kernow, Model Rail or whoever. If Dapol find themselves simply as an intermediary between the commissioning retailer and a factory in China it starts to become a question what value they are adding and whether the intermediary can be cut out of the chain. Heljan and Bachmann/Kadar are a different proposition because they actually own the factory. We could be moving more to the model of a pre-war Hamblings or Bonds - ie a large retail shop also being a major brand with a range of its own products Secondly, Dapol is another major RTR brand with promised models seriously delayed and slipping - this is an industry wide phenomenon pointing back to the situation in China Thirdly this is the first time a commissioned "niche" model has explicitly been cancelled , as a result of lack of demand , and Kernow have dropped their expansion into Gauge O . We are also seeing a number of exclusive versions of heavily delayed projects being cancelled. Up to this point it has been theoretical speculation that commissioning or other new RTR projects might fail or be cancelled in the current economic climate. Now we have what may be a turning point and high water mark - a project cancelled because the pre-orders weren't there Fourthly this is the second time recently we have heard of commissioned projects being delayed because of some kind of dispute between commissioner and producer I can't help feeling that in the next ten years we'll be hearing a lot more under each of these headings Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin_l_jones Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 What's interesting in the last couple of weeks we had the Rail Express announcement and now this. It begs the question as to whether the market is right to launch all these new models. It may be a question going through the minds of the marketing men. The statement regarding advance sales is probably one of the major concerns and probably below Kernows expectations Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oreamnos Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 [edit] [edit] I do echo rembrow's comments about Dapol's situation - with Kernow being the second commissioner, to our recent knowledge, to turn elsewhere. And this, so it might appear, after development of products was not only underway but seemingly might have had, since the date of announcement, sufficient time to become quite advanced? It will be interesting to hear what (if anything?) Dapol have to say as while one might be reminded of one of Lady Bracknell's comments there is the possibility that with less commissioned work in hand they might be better placed to advance their own projects such as the SPUs and streamlined railcars? I completely agree and this is all very interesting. A lot could be read between the lines, especially when taken in the broader context of Dave Jones' departure from Dapol this past summer and the apparent decision (the jury is admittedly still out) by Dapol not to continue the high level of consumer engagement that it had when Mr. Jones was in its employ. As an N gauge modeller, what I am chiefly interested in is whether Dapol's Class 50 (and 33 to a lesser degree) remain on schedule - whatever that might have been. I hope indeed that with less comissioned work these projects of Dapol's own will advance faster, but I admit I am now skeptical. Matt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velopeur Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Dapol's bubble has burst..............? How many Chinese speak Cornish/Kernowek I wonder? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Massive dummy throwing - 275k of projects cancelled... Not necessarily so. There is such a thing as preparing a rod for your own back. DJM Dave parted from Dapol with some clear "frustrations" and perhaps what we're seeing here is some of the inevitable pigeons coming home to roost. Dapol (for whatever reason) are reviewing their business model and are almost certainly going through a phase of risk management and it appears they are backing away from commissioned models for the moment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Hi Matt, AFAIK, the 33's are slightly delayed as after I left some detail changes were noted and as such it has been reported it would go into the tool room. When I was 'in the chair' I envisaged that the 33's would be released at Ally Pally, but with CNY between then and now, who knows. As for the rebuilt and un rebuilt class 50's. These weren't finished when I left and as such the new guys will have had to pick up those reigns, identify the myriad of problems still with the cad/cams and get more drawings done. I'd say at least July 14 for those. HTH Dave Dapol's bubble has burst..............? How many Chinese speak Cornish/Kernowek I wonder? TLol, that's what I'm here for :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest maxthemapman Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 This isn't really evidence that the bubble has burst regarding OO commissions, only that the commissioners can only take so much in the agonising-slowness stakes. There is obviously a bottleneck in terms of securing production slots, but there need not be a bottleneck in terms of developing CADs: There are a lot of people out there who can do that. If I was a manufacturer suddenly on the receiving end of ten private commissions for models, I might consider hiring some extra design staff. O gauge is a dark horse in Britain. Most layouts are not O gauge, so unless more people can be encouraged to build O gauge layouts, the glut of new rtr models are either going to end up permanently in glass cabinets, or selling in small numbers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted November 8, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 8, 2013 Is it throwing toys out or Dapol taking an opportunity to concentrate on their own products after taking on too much? There's little doubt their production was slipping badly and after the success of the Beattie that must have been a very difficult decision by Kernow. Yet they still tried to keep the faith on other projects with Dapol. I hope this isn't going to harm Dapol badly and I wish Kernow every success plus it must help DJM with cash flow and maintaining Chinese contacts for their own range. A more sophisticated version of the small production of 3D prints by contractsnufacturers? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 200 O gauge models pre ordered, I wonder how many they thought they were going to sell ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren01 Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Hi Sorry about this, But unless I had been living under a rock ,what is the Bulleid Diesel locos ?, as I get the news letters and have never come across these?. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-gog Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Hi Sorry about this, But unless I had been living under a rock ,what is the Bulleid Diesel locos ?, as I get the news letters and have never come across these?. http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/page/60/Bulleid_Diesel Google is our friend. RWJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 8, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 8, 2013 Hi Sorry about this, But unless I had been living under a rock ,what is the Bulleid Diesel locos ?, as I get the news letters and have never come across these?. You've been living under a rock Darren - you would know them as 10201, 10202, and 10203 - announced by Kernow some good time back and which notwithstanding this year's production problems in China might have hopefully reached early CAD status and a bit of debating on here about details by now although sitting in a long established queue with other Kernow commissions. What's interesting in the last couple of weeks we had the Rail Express announcement and now this. It begs the question as to whether the market is right to launch all these new models. It may be a question going through the minds of the marketing men. The statement regarding advance sales is probably one of the major concerns and probably below Kernows expectations But the only one which has been discontinued by Kernow is the 0 gauge Well Tank - the announcement is quite clear that they are continuing with all their developments of 'originally tooled exclusively for them' items. This suggests that Kernow perceive the market as still being there, no doubt a view supported by pre-orders in a number of cases where the models have been announced as open for order for some time? Judging by the past situation with limited or exclusive edition models the situation seems to be quite simple - if you make the right thing to the right standard at a realistic cost then usually it will sell. If your market research is right then you should identify 'the right thing', if your specification and management is right you'll get it at the right standard and price and the market will lap it up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mike Bellamy Posted November 8, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 8, 2013 200 O gauge models pre ordered, I wonder how many they thought they were going to sell ? I believe that Ixion had 1500 Hudswell Clarke locos made and have sold about 1000 so far and they now advertise it as the best selling O Gauge loco ever. This financed the Fowler Diesel GWR No1 released this week where they have had 1000 made - I have no idea how many of those are pre ordered but perhaps not more than the 200 that Kernow felt was too small a number. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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