Minories Holborn viaduct

[bigdaveadams1]

I know they're small but the quality these days is outstanding!

[Peter Kazmierczak]

If anyone's interested, this is the WTT for the LMR workings to Moorgate - (Winter 1963/4). All trains are Mon - Fri only.

 

DOWN

 

Dep.

09.05 ECS to Cattle Docks Jn (after working 07.55 ex Harpenden)

09.30 ECS to Cattle Docks Jn (after working 08.22 ex Luton)

09.50 ECS to Cattle Docks Jn (after working 08,45 ex Luton)

09.56 Light Engine to Kentish Town MPD (after working 08.45 ex Luton)

17.12 to Luton

17.35 to Luton

18.15 to Harpenden

18.25 Light Engine to Kentish Town MPD (after working 17.13 ECS ex Cattle Docks Jn

 

UP

 

Arr.

08.31 Light Engine 07.40 from Cricklewood MPD (to work 09.05 ECS to Cattle Docks Jn)

08.48 07.55 ex Harpenden

09.23 08.22 ex Luton

09.44 08.45 ex Luton

16.30 Light Engine 15.45 from Cricklewood MPD (to work 17.12 to Luton)

16.56 ECS 16.15 from Cattle Docks Jn (to work 17.12 to Luton)

17.26 ECS 16.55 from Cattle Docks Jn (to work 17.35 to Luton)

17.40 ECS 17.13 ex Cattle Docks Jn (to work 18.15 to Harpenden)

[bigdaveadams1]

Very kind of you!

 

If only I could get hold of a track plan for Moorgate in the 70s.....

[griffgriff]

Minories (the road) links Fenchurch Street and Aldgate. It's too much of a coincidence that these two urban stations can't of been some influence to CF and his design. 

Edited November 10, 2013 by griffgriff

[Oldddudders]

Peter, you beat me to it. I was going to ask Ian how long had he lived in France?   Paddington was one of the first major stations to be elctrocuted, as you rightly point out with it being on the Hammersmith and city line.

 

My item was, as you well know, in response to NHNeil's suggestion about 8-car EMUs, with destinations a bit further than Hammersmith. Paddington still has a majority of its services under diesel traction, arguably all the "real" national network trains - the Heathrow Express being just a private junket for that airport.

[Clive Mortimore]

My item was, as you well know, in response to NHNeil's suggestion about 8-car EMUs, with destinations a bit further than Hammersmith. Paddington still has a majority of its services under diesel traction, arguably all the "real" national network trains - the Heathrow Express being just a private junket for that airport.

Hi Ian

 

There isn't a little emote thingy with a man with a fishing rod if there was I would use it.

 

Before WW2 the Great Western ran services from Reading to Liverpool St (Met Rly) which were electric hauled from Paddington. If you were to "flip” CJF's plan vertically so the single platform was at the top, this was the platform these GWR "electric trains" terminated. As there was not the room for a run round loop, so a loco would be waiting in the loco spur to haul the train back to where it came from. I did look on the Old Maps site at Liverpool Street (Met Rly) because the station throat part of the CJF plan was (still is open to the elements. The problem was the 1/2500 maps they have are of a poor quality and the track plan does not show up too well. One of my daft ideas has been to model that end of the station in the 1930s.

 

As for using the Minories plan for an 8 car EMU layout Andi Dell started a topic on the suburban side of Charing Cross station http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66187-charing-cross-london-suburban-side-p1-p3-pointwork/ . There is always a variation of Fenchurch Street with only 3 platforms, 8 car AM2s, and AM8s in green livery....lovely. Or somewhere on Mersey or even Tyneside with their respective EMU types. 

 

If you don't want multiple units, it can be placed in a West Yorkshire city, ex-LMS lines with loads of them 2-6-4T rushing about with suburban coaches.

Edited November 10, 2013 by Clive Mortimore

[The Stationmaster]

My item was, as you well know, in response to NHNeil's suggestion about 8-car EMUs, with destinations a bit further than Hammersmith. Paddington still has a majority of its services under diesel traction, arguably all the "real" national network trains - the Heathrow Express being just a private junket for that airport.

Not quite 'all the real network trains' Ian as the stopping service to LHR is also emu and is a joint FGW/HEx operation and it is also the 'all stations' inner suburban service of course;  but I think you are right when you say a 'majority ... under diesel traction'.

[wirey33]

 

In a “Model Railways Magazine” extra published in September 1981, CJF included plans showing a development of Minories on a modular basis. This added a small loco depot, a junction and a goods yard which could be linked in different ways. It would “be suitable for construction in cramped conditions, and erection in any one of half-a-dozen ways at an exhibition … it would always be complete, but never need be finished.”

A few points relevant to the discussion on this thread:

After reiterating that the original Minories was based on Liverpool Street (Met), he points out that where it was designed to be modelled in a cutting, the later plan shows it on a brick viaduct.

While it “was originally conceived for suburban working, it is, however, ideally suited for modern diesel era operation”. And, of course, EMUs! “Furthermore,because the platform roads are parallel across the break, it is feasible to extend the length if required.”

The additions are given the names “Cheapside Shed”, Blackfriars Junction” and Leadenhall Yard”, and it is pointed out that “Minories” is pronounced “Min- not Mine- . The names come from the City, as is right and proper, but clearly geography is haywire.” He seems to have anticipated some developments and queries!

 

 

Can you expand on this?

 

I'd be particularly interested how the goods facilities and loco shed were tacked onto the orignal trackplan. Were they added to the side of the platforms or as an extra board extending the station throat?

Edited November 11, 2013 by wirey33

[kevinlms]

Can you expand on this?

 

I'd be particularly interested how the goods facilities and loco shed were tacked onto the orignal trackplan. Were they added to the side of the platforms or as an extra board extending the station throat?

From memory (after a recent move, this mag hasn't turned up yet , but since a few boxes are still at a friend's place, so haven't given up yet!), it's quite simple. On the approach there is a double junction which immediately becomes single. It then turns at a right angle to the baseboard edge. The goods facility and engine shed are separate modules with a single track centred I think, at the baseboard ends. In reality the right angle could be anything you wanted or whatever fitted.

 

I hope that's clear.

[BG John]

Can you expand on this?

 

I'd be particularly interested how the goods facilities and loco shed were tacked onto the orignal trackplan. Were they added to the side of the platforms or as an extra board extending the station throat?

The version in 60 Plans for Small Railways (2nd Edition Revised, Oct 1962), doesn't have a loco shed. There's a turnout at the end of the platform on the front passenger track forming a headshunt that runs parallel to the main line, Connected to this turnout is a Y point (forming a crossover) that leads to another Y point with two tracks running into a long goods shed attached to the passenger overall roof. So goods trains arrive in the front platform, the shunter pulls the train into the headshunt, and sorts wagons into the two sidings.

 

The passenger Minories is 6' 8" x 9", and the goods version 6' 8" x 1' 5".

 

Why wasn't Creative Commons around in the 60s, and everyone used it instead of this nasty copyright stuff, so I could just scan it and stick it on here!!!!!!

Edited November 11, 2013 by BG John

[kevinlms]

The version in 60 Plans for Small Railways (2nd Edition Revised, Oct 1962), doesn't have a loco shed. There's a turnout at the end of the platform on the front passenger track forming a headshunt that runs parallel to the main line, Connected to this turnout is a Y point (forming a crossover) that leads to another Y point with two tracks running into a long goods shed attached to the passenger overall roof. So goods trains arrive in the front platform, the shunter pulls the train into the headshunt, and sorts wagons into the two sidings.

 

The passenger Minories is 6' 8" x 9", and the goods version 6' 8" x 1' 5".

 

Why wasn't Creative Commons around in the 60s, and everyone used it instead of this nasty copyright stuff, so I could just scan it and stick it on here!!!!!!

Yes, that version crops up several times, but the one bluebottle & I are talking about is quite different. Not sure that I've seen this version anywhere except from the 'Model Railways Magazine Extra' as stated by bluebottle.

[sparks]

I'd also thought of a Holborn Viaduct style Minories, although the disused trainshed walls could be given Cannon St style towers for more interest. It would a good layout for a large room, with a representation of Blackfriars (or Ludgate Hill) and a river bridge before looping around the room to emerge from the Snow Hill tunnel to give a continuous run. You'd need a fiddle yard for reversing and maybe a through station on a viaduct if there was room.

[Joseph_Pestell]

In the early days of the LCDR, some trains ran in portions: one going to Victoria and one going to Holborn Viaduct for The City (dividing at Herne Hill). That is why there are so many exotic destinations on the stone plaque at Blackfriars (St Paul's back then).

 

Bending history a bit (rule 1) to prolong that practice, 4-car CEPs at Holborn Viaduct is perfectly reasonable.

 

Bend it a bit more with the link to Farringdon not closing to passengers in 1916 and all sorts of interesting pre-Thameslink possibilities arise. Scenic breaks are a bit difficult to arrange although there are a few tall buildings that could be used.

[bigdaveadams1]

In the early days of the LCDR, some trains ran in portions: one going to Victoria and one going to Holborn Viaduct for The City (dividing at Herne Hill). That is why there are so many exotic destinations on the stone plaque at Blackfriars (St Paul's back then).

 

Bending history a bit (rule 1) to prolong that practice, 4-car CEPs at Holborn Viaduct is perfectly reasonable.

 

Bend it a bit more with the link to Farringdon not closing to passengers in 1916 and all sorts of interesting pre-Thameslink possibilities arise. Scenic breaks are a bit difficult to arrange although there are a few tall buildings that could be used.

In 88 they still had services to Canterbury and Sheerness. I'd assumed these were Ceps or at the very least Veps?

[Joseph_Pestell]

I can recall occasionally seeing CEPs at Holborn Viaduct but I think that it was always an 8-car formation.

 

I don't recall ever seeing a VEP there although there is no reason why there should not have been.

[Oldddudders]

I'm sure there were Kent Coast services at Holborn into the '80s, almost certainly the '90s. Some of these may have been HAPs, but a VEP or a CEP would be pretty hard to challenge.

 

As far as fiddle yard is concerned, there was a real-life one on Blackfriars Bridge, with a couple of carriage roads. These were used for the ECS workings between Cannon St and Stewarts Lane depot. Empty trains would creep round the corner from Metropolitan Junction to Blackfriars Junction, then into the carriage roads, where the crew would change ends. They would then proceed via Elephant & Castle and Canterbury Road Junction and onto the Up Catford Loop line, then to Factory Junction and into Stew Lane.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Oldddudders

[bigdaveadams1]

They still do that now. Or at least did when I was a Blackfriars driver.

[kevinlms]

The version in 60 Plans for Small Railways (2nd Edition Revised, Oct 1962), doesn't have a loco shed. There's a turnout at the end of the platform on the front passenger track forming a headshunt that runs parallel to the main line, Connected to this turnout is a Y point (forming a crossover) that leads to another Y point with two tracks running into a long goods shed attached to the passenger overall roof. So goods trains arrive in the front platform, the shunter pulls the train into the headshunt, and sorts wagons into the two sidings.

 

The passenger Minories is 6' 8" x 9", and the goods version 6' 8" x 1' 5".

 

Why wasn't Creative Commons around in the 60s, and everyone used it instead of this nasty copyright stuff, so I could just scan it and stick it on here!!!!!!

In a later version of 60 Plans for Small Railways, the goods yard is reversed, i.e. next to and parallel to the incoming lines.

 

See post 47 by Pacific231G, for the differences, my preference would be the later version, too. Thanks.

Edited November 12, 2013 by kevinlms

[andytrains]

A good layout with a connection to the Minories type is Geof Ashdowns, EM layout Tower Pier.

It is run in 1950's steam era. There was an article about the layout in March 2012 edition of British Railway Modelling. 

Here are three photos of Tower Pier.

 

Edited December 31, 2015 by andytrains

[cary hill]

Yes, that version crops up several times, but the one bluebottle & I are talking about is quite different. Not sure that I've seen this version anywhere except from the 'Model Railways Magazine Extra' as stated by bluebottle.

 

I happened to stumble across the magazine in question this afternoon. If it helps others to understand what is being referred to, here is a quick Anyrail freebie mock-up of Cheapside Depot and Leadenhall Yard modules:

 

 

The brown lines the represent viaduct walls. I also ran out of track pieces, so the goods yard pointwork has a 3-way point not on CJ's plan, but it doesn't alter the overall appearance of the yard greatly.

 

The version of Minories in the article is 10' long x 1'8" wide approx., because a low level station building has been bolted on by CJF on this version. It comprises three boards - 2 x 3' and a 4' board with all the pointwork on it.

Edited November 12, 2013 by cary hill

[The Bigbee Line]

I'm sure there were Kent Coast services at Holborn into the '80s, almost certainly the '90s. Some of these may have been HAPs, but a VEP or a CEP would be pretty hard to challenge.

 

As far as fiddle yard is concerned, there was a real-life one on Blackfriars Bridge, with a couple of carriage roads. These were used for the ECS workings between Cannon St and Stewarts Lane depot. Empty trains would creep round the corner from Metropolitan Junction to Blackfriars Junction, then into the carriage roads, where the crew would change ends. They would then proceed via Elephant & Castle and Canterbury Road Junction and onto the Up Catford Loop line, then to Factory Junction and into Stew Lane.

The night there was a major cable fire in the London Bridge area we took a 12 car from Charing Cross to Cannon Street, changed ends and set off for Blackfriars, then changed ends again heading for Ashford and the Kent Coast.  At Blackfriars there was an enormous rat ambling across the platform, not worried by the presence of a train at an unexpected hour.

[Pacific231G]

Can you expand on this?

 

I'd be particularly interested how the goods facilities and loco shed were tacked onto the orignal trackplan. Were they added to the side of the platforms or as an extra board extending the station throat?

In the original published article the goods version had a goods shed with an internal platform between the two sidings. They were accessed rather awkwardly from a headshunt that kicked back from platform 3. 

 

 

This always looked to me like an afterthought in the orginal version which was by the way designed as a five foot long layout for the new TT-3. The original Tri-ang range included a Jinty 060T and a couple of suburban coaches which, if you were prepared to accept a Jinty as a suburban tank loco,  could have been used to operate Minories.

I discussed Minories with Cyril Freezer a few years before he died and he told me that he far preferred his later idea of making the goods shed a kick back from a track parallel to platform 3. This also keeps the layout quite narrow and uses up the "wasted" space in front of the throat.

 

These drawings are by the way eight feet long using Peco medium radius points which is longer than the original version that just about works if you use small radius points.

 

In the 1981 article he reverted to the original passenger only plan though with longer platforms but added modules representing "Blackfriars junction" between the main line and a single track branch to a goods yard. Leadenhall Yard as that yard and Cheapside Depot as a smallish MPD alongside the main line. The idea was that the three additional pieces along with a couple of corner pieces could be assembled in any order and visually the whole thing was supposed to be on viaducts like the lines around London Bridge and Cannon Street so could be built without any scenery.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Pacific231G

[Pacific231G]

A good layout with a connection to the Minories type is Geof Ashdowns, EM layout Tower Pier.

It is run in 1950's steam era. There was an article about the layout in March 2012 edition of British Railway Modelling. 

Here are three photos of Tower Pier.

Tower Pier-2.jpgTower Pier-1.jpgTower Pier-3.jpg

 

Here is a link to the BRM article:- http://www.hadleightemple.org.uk/CorpsNews/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/BRM-Mar12-Tower-Pier-A4e.pdf

Thaks for this Andy

Tower Pier is one of my current favourite layouts though Geoff Ashdown didn't originally think it suitable for "general public" shows because it's in a cutting so difficult to see, operated by two people in front of the layout and "It is not possible to have something moving all the time which many feel is the mark of a good exhibition layout. Finescale shows though operate under a different ethos". I have seen it a couple of times at ExpoEM and Watford Finescale and, without the constant pressure to keep something moving all the time, Geoff did have plenty of time to discuss the layout with visitors. 

I don't think my photos do it justice but it's made up of three one metre by fifty centimetre open boxes with the left hand including the station itself, the right hand the cassette based fiddle yard and the middle one the throat including almost all the pointwork and the lever frame. The goods line is effetively a separate layout from the passenger station and I think it captures the feel of a tightly packed urban line to perfection.

 

 

The operator sees it as it were from the signaller's point of view and it's operated with full block instruments. Geoff Ashdown has included some interesting ideas such as making the whole layout live and then using specific "handbrakes"- short isolated sections- for locos in all the places where a loco might legitimately stand. I've seen this on DC MPD layouts but not on a general one 

I also like the idea of making the throat effectively a separate scene as, although Geoff hasn't done this, it  would enable the platforms and fiddle yard to be longer for exhibtions and shorter for home use. I think my next layout will be heavily influenced by it

Edited March 24, 2015 by Pacific231G

[cromptonnut]

I love the additional line allowing greater operational flexibility! I now need to get hold of a working timetable for Moorgate in 1975. Wish me luck!

 

Any reason for picking 1975?  Not a good year... http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/28/newsid_2515000/2515033.stm

[bigdaveadams1]

Oh I realised that. Just wanted to pick a year that I knew was blue and loco hauled. What years would have seen blue and green locos? I'll admit it's not my era!