Coach bodging

[uax6]

I have got photos but I can't upload from work, so as soon as I get near a computer (Or more like when i have been allowed!) I'll bung some on here.

 

Colin, I did try out DJ's box method, but I found that the box was very noticable in 4mm and I just found it very cumbersome for some reason.

 

Andy G

Edited December 24, 2013 by uax6

[MikeTrice]

Based on my own attempts at a panelled side and the comment regarding thickening the sides I would suggest something like this with each layer being in 10thou. I have kept your colours:

 

 

 

[Colin parks]

I have got photos but I can't upload from work, so as soon as I get near a computer (Or more like when i have been allowed!) I'll bung some on here.

 

Colin, I did try out DJ's box method, but I found that the box was very noticable in 4mm and I just found it very cumbersome for some reason.

 

Andy G

Hi Andy,

 

Yes, in 4mm scale the box idea would be more conspicuous .     

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[MikeTrice]

I have effectively got a Jenk's box. The key is to ensure that the windows on the box side are larger than the windows on the outer layer then they are not so noticeable.

 

The inner side(s) in brown in the layer diagram above, form the side of the box:

 

P.S. If you would like to send me your HR cutting artwork I will have a play and see how it comes out using my technique.

 

Edited December 29, 2013 by MikeTrice

[uax6]

Mike,

 

Funny you should say that, but I have re-jigged the drawings I have done to see how they will come out with 7 layers like yours. Hopefully I'll get them cut when I get home.

 

I'll also hopefully put the pictures of the first attempt up, so you can see the issues I had. Hopefully some 15thou will arrive soon, although the 7 layer version of 10 thou might be the way forward....

 

BTW that 6 wheeler has turned out well.

 

Andy g

Edited December 29, 2013 by uax6

[MikeTrice]

Your HR should be the same, the only difference being the extra layer of beading at the bottom. The biggest difficulty is lining the various layers up correctly before applying solvent.

[uax6]

Taking things back a couple of days to the prototype HR carriage...

 

Firstly a picture of the Silhouette Portrait cutting machine:

 

and open and cutting a piece of normal 10thou:

 

The leftovers still stuck to the cutting mat:

 

Some of the body side cuts:

 

The sides were laminated as shown earlier and the result of this is shown fixed to the two ends:

 

The distorsion is difficult to photo, but thispicture gives you an idea of it:

 

And also seen in these shots:

 

The underframe was made of 20thou, which the machine cuts about halfway through, the finishing cuts being done with a knife. I have done a top and bottom floor, which laminate together, the bottom floor being narrower to support the solebars and buffer beams (these are also laminated). The production one bottom floor will have scores for bogie centres, battery box locations, dynamo location, trussing locations etc.

 

With a pair of ratio cast LNWR buffers (which are close to HR ones):

 

Overall its looking good, and as I write the cutter is cutting the improved (Mk10!) version of this coach.

 

Andy G

 

 

[Alister_G]

Blimey Andy, you're making a cracking job of these. I've only just caught up with this thread, and it's great!

 

Love the detailing of the beds you did on the earlier model, really good.

 

Excellent stuff mate, really brilliant.

 

Al.

[Mikkel]

I'll echo that. This is a very informative and useful thread. Thanks to all for spelling things out clearly so the rest of us can follow the discussion and issues.

[Londontram]

Wait two months and you can buy this.....................

 

Carriages and Wagons.jpg

 

 

Sorry to hijack your thread Andy but seeing this book cover from Porchillin Tatty and seeing a simular photo and diagram in my Highland railway book santa brought me it may have answered a question but in the process posed even more. One of my all time fav photo's is this one of the opening of Loch Tay in 1886, now the engine shunting is a Killin pug so no surprise there but the coaches (the back two at least which I think are from the left a 4 wheel 5 compartment third and then a 4 wheel 3 compartment first, the bird cage brake I don't know but looking at the style of the ribbed body could be Highland too) have always been an enigma as they don't seem to match any Caledonian diagrams but with the distinctive ribbed body's they seem pure Highland. The Killin branch was operated by the Caley but not owned so my guess is the Caley agreed to supply the engine but the Killin railway maybe had to hire in or buy the stock. later stock is pure Caledonian so one wonders what was going on here 

    again sorry to hijack your thread below is the photo of Loch Tay station cir 1886 PS the goods vans in front of the brake seem pure Caley

Edited January 2, 2014 by Londontram

[PeterR]

Hi,

 

The original rolling  stock on the Killin railway was possibly old Scottish & North Eastern Railway (which was incorporated into the CR). Even the Caledonian replacement was virtually unique insofar as a standard CR coach was modified for them by having one of the central 1st class compartments made as a 3rd class one.

 

The 'ex SNER' suggestion is from John Boyle, who is a long time friend, makes an etched brass 7mm scale kit of the 3 compartment first.

.   

 

The Oakwood Press book on the Scottish Central Railway has some drawings in of locos and carriages iof interested.

 

 

Re the forthcoming Highland Railway coach & wagon book, if NOT a HR Soc member  - check out Amazon for it - release date is end of Feb by the way.

 

Yours Peter R

Edited January 2, 2014 by PeterR

[uax6]

I spoke to Kevin re the HR book, and it is at the printers next week. and then three to four weeks later its out to buy. My copy is on pre-order (the first time I've ever done that!)...

 

Andy G

[uax6]

Since the last report I have been quite busy, taking a step forward and three or four backwards!

 

Getting the sides to behave properly has been a real issue. I've tried de-stressing them by heating and then cooling, and ended up melting one side, and it still didn't help, so I got depressed and stopped thinking about these coaches for about a week.

 

In that time I made up a kirk LNER 3rd sleeper, and along with a secondhand kirk brake 3rd I started trying Mike T's teaking process. I've got to the stage where I can start putting the oil colours on to give the grain:

I intend to try the oiling tomorrow.

 

I've also re-discovered a lovely old brass LNWR cove roofed brake third, which I inherited from the estate of Frank Roomes (of Lutton fame). Firstly it's not really Frank at all, as he was a staunch Midland man, but it fits well for me. It is solid brass with a balsa and paper roof. It's been knocked around a bit (it was in a box of offcut lengths of brass when it came to me), but I like it and thought about getting it running again.

 

The first big issue is its weight, the underframe weighs in at over 100g alone! It also has no bogies. So the first thing to do was to check the bits box, and there I found a pair of ratio 8ft LNWR bogies (Ok so it should have 9 ft ones, but will anyone notice?) which I made up and fitted with a set of old PC models metal wheels in brass tophat bearings. They run really nicely and freely.

 

The underframe was then looked at, the original is basic, and I wanted more detail and less weight, so out with the plasticard. I used 60thou for the solebars and floor, and then spent some time making the details up. The queen posts on these coaches are 6x5" I-beams, so these were made from 10thou strips. That was fiddly and they still don't quite sit square! These then had romford handrail knobs superglued to them (after first filing the locating stud off the bottom of them). The truss rods are 0.45 brass handrail wire bent to the correct shape, with a bit of telephone wire insulation on it to be the turnbuckle. The wire is threaded through the queen posts and superglued in the correct place (while it is sitting on a flat surface, as once set, these truss rods actually work as truss rods).

 

Brake parts come from ratio MR coaches (the cylinders), the v hangers come from cut up (not by me!) Bachmann wagons and the dynamo from the Kirk Sleeper kit. The battery boxes were made from 10thou sheet, with 10thou rod for the detailing.

 

Upstairs it has bits of ratio LNWR corridor doing the same job here, and a locating strip at the brake end as there is no mounting lugs at that end of the body.

 

The weight of the new underframe? 39 grams. And it supports the body weight well (which again is over 100grams).

 

 

The painted sides (one side LMS the other LNWR) have chips in them, but I think I'm going to leave them well alone....

 

The roof is a bit more battered and needs some TLC, its already be off and restuck, but there will need to be some filler applied and a coact of paint. The most annoying thing is that it's missing a vent, does any one reconise these?

 

So I then moved back to the HR coach. I had an idea that I wanted to try. That idea was to reduce the laminations by using some 20thou sheet. So the inner sides and the glazing layer were machine cut and then hand cut out of the sheet:

 

0.45mm holes were drilled along the bottom edges to allow solvent venting:

 

And then everything was laminated as before. I did then change my mind slighty and decide to make the glaxing per-compartment, not per-window, this being the big test to see what warping would happen. The whole lot was assembled into sides and the effect at the top was this:

 

Success at last! I then made up the body shell. To get the ends on you need to file a large wedge on the end of the side:

 

And then the end can be glued:

 

The combination looking like this:

 

Then underframe time. I redrew my first version to include the queen-posts. These would need a dummy post behind with a handrail knob on:

 

Then the body was tried on the underframe and with a pair of LNWR accomodation bogies we get:

 

I then looked a bit more at the underframe and added the truss rods (same method as above):

 

What you can't see in the photos is that the solebars have 0.5mm holes scribed into them by the machine so that I can add rivets (I think they are really bolts as these are timber underframes) either with transfers or 20th rod.

 

I then put the lower panels on one side (This is not the way to put them together, this should be done while the sides are still seperate, along with adding holes for door handles and grab handles, and putting the bolections on! I did it this way just to see if the body would work!):

 

I think I have cracked it! I need to cut out another couple of sets of this coach, before I try another type.

 

This morning I tried to form the roof. I bit of drainpipe had some 20thou taped to it with masking tape and then put into the rayburn oven for a while to form. What I didn't realise was that the drainpipe wasn't a thermoset plastic, and it went a bit soft, but it soon cooled down and the result is a roof the correct shape. Now I need to replace the drain pipe with something that won't melt, any ideas?

 

The roof can be cut from a section of this:

 

The pipe has change shape at one end:

 

Now where have I put thos roxey etched door handles?

 

Andy G

 

 

[JCL]

You've been busy! That looks really great Andy. You must be really pleased that the sides haven't warped.

[uax6]

I feel like the light at the end of the tunnel ISN'T a train! My main issue at the minute is that I can't work out if the coaches really need bolections adding or not, the Hr coaches didn't really have ones that stuck out (like on a GWR coach), so i don't know if my bolection layer is enough....

 

Lots of panelled coaches will be able to be cut out, now I know what I'm doing!

 

Andy g

[JCL]

Expect the orders to come flooding in

[uax6]

How many do you want sir?

 

Andy G

[JCL]

Well, can you do me a Barnum? I've got big plans you see...

[ossy5190]

Superb models Andy! I've been wanting one of those half sleepers for a while but always thought they would be a bit too difficult but having seen your posts I might just have a go at one.

 

The cutter tool looks like it could be very handy for anyone looking to build pre grouping coaches. How easy/ hard is it to set up and create the artwork?

 

Ross

[uax6]

If you have a scale drawing its actually quite easy, as to be honest you are just tracing things! There are a few bear pits to watch out for (like using 0.5mm as min panel thickness and gap) but it is realitivley easy.

 

The software that came with the machine I picked up in about an hour, but has it's limitations (like you can only view the files in that software), but these won't stop you turning out good panel layers! I had no experience of CAD before this. I have a long list of panelled coaches to make and without this cutter I would only get about three or four done, out of the best part of 20 differring designs I want!

 

I have almost got another two coach designs ready to be cut, and I did cut two more of the full 3rd that is above. One of the cuts is of a matchboarded version. My idea is to go through the construction of these two coaches from the very begining on here, which will show you how easy the whole construction is.

 

 

Andy G

[Colin parks]

Since the last report I have been quite busy, taking a step forward and three or four backwards!

 

Getting the sides to behave properly has been a real issue. I've tried de-stressing them by heating and then cooling, and ended up melting one side, and it still didn't help, so I got depressed and stopped thinking about these coaches for about a week.

 

In that time I made up a kirk LNER 3rd sleeper, and along with a secondhand kirk brake 3rd I started trying Mike T's teaking process. I've got to the stage where I can start putting the oil colours on to give the grain:

DSC06141.JPG

DSC06142.JPG

I intend to try the oiling tomorrow.

 

I've also re-discovered a lovely old brass LNWR cove roofed brake third, which I inherited from the estate of Frank Roomes (of Lutton fame). Firstly it's not really Frank at all, as he was a staunch Midland man, but it fits well for me. It is solid brass with a balsa and paper roof. It's been knocked around a bit (it was in a box of offcut lengths of brass when it came to me), but I like it and thought about getting it running again.

DSC06143.JPG

 

The first big issue is its weight, the underframe weighs in at over 100g alone! It also has no bogies. So the first thing to do was to check the bits box, and there I found a pair of ratio 8ft LNWR bogies (Ok so it should have 9 ft ones, but will anyone notice?) which I made up and fitted with a set of old PC models metal wheels in brass tophat bearings. They run really nicely and freely.

 

The underframe was then looked at, the original is basic, and I wanted more detail and less weight, so out with the plasticard. I used 60thou for the solebars and floor, and then spent some time making the details up. The queen posts on these coaches are 6x5" I-beams, so these were made from 10thou strips. That was fiddly and they still don't quite sit square! These then had romford handrail knobs superglued to them (after first filing the locating stud off the bottom of them). The truss rods are 0.45 brass handrail wire bent to the correct shape, with a bit of telephone wire insulation on it to be the turnbuckle. The wire is threaded through the queen posts and superglued in the correct place (while it is sitting on a flat surface, as once set, these truss rods actually work as truss rods).

 

Brake parts come from ratio MR coaches (the cylinders), the v hangers come from cut up (not by me!) Bachmann wagons and the dynamo from the Kirk Sleeper kit. The battery boxes were made from 10thou sheet, with 10thou rod for the detailing.

 

Upstairs it has bits of ratio LNWR corridor doing the same job here, and a locating strip at the brake end as there is no mounting lugs at that end of the body.

DSC06148.JPG

DSC06149.JPG

DSC06150.JPG

DSC06152.JPG

DSC06153.JPG

 

The weight of the new underframe? 39 grams. And it supports the body weight well (which again is over 100grams).

 

DSC06154.JPG

DSC06155.JPG

DSC06156.JPG

 

The painted sides (one side LMS the other LNWR) have chips in them, but I think I'm going to leave them well alone....

 

The roof is a bit more battered and needs some TLC, its already be off and restuck, but there will need to be some filler applied and a coact of paint. The most annoying thing is that it's missing a vent, does any one reconise these?

DSC06157.JPG

DSC06158.JPG

DSC06159.JPG

 

So I then moved back to the HR coach. I had an idea that I wanted to try. That idea was to reduce the laminations by using some 20thou sheet. So the inner sides and the glazing layer were machine cut and then hand cut out of the sheet:

DSC06117.JPG

 

0.45mm holes were drilled along the bottom edges to allow solvent venting:

DSC06119.JPG

 

And then everything was laminated as before. I did then change my mind slighty and decide to make the glaxing per-compartment, not per-window, this being the big test to see what warping would happen. The whole lot was assembled into sides and the effect at the top was this:

DSC06121.JPG

 

Success at last! I then made up the body shell. To get the ends on you need to file a large wedge on the end of the side:

DSC06120.JPG

 

And then the end can be glued:

DSC06123.JPG

 

The combination looking like this:

DSC06124.JPG

 

Then underframe time. I redrew my first version to include the queen-posts. These would need a dummy post behind with a handrail knob on:

DSC06114.JPG

DSC06116.JPG

 

Then the body was tried on the underframe and with a pair of LNWR accomodation bogies we get:

DSC06132.JPG

DSC06136.JPG

 

I then looked a bit more at the underframe and added the truss rods (same method as above):

DSC06137.JPG

 

What you can't see in the photos is that the solebars have 0.5mm holes scribed into them by the machine so that I can add rivets (I think they are really bolts as these are timber underframes) either with transfers or 20th rod.

 

I then put the lower panels on one side (This is not the way to put them together, this should be done while the sides are still seperate, along with adding holes for door handles and grab handles, and putting the bolections on! I did it this way just to see if the body would work!):

DSC06139.JPG

DSC06140.JPG

 

I think I have cracked it! I need to cut out another couple of sets of this coach, before I try another type.

 

This morning I tried to form the roof. I bit of drainpipe had some 20thou taped to it with masking tape and then put into the rayburn oven for a while to form. What I didn't realise was that the drainpipe wasn't a thermoset plastic, and it went a bit soft, but it soon cooled down and the result is a roof the correct shape. Now I need to replace the drain pipe with something that won't melt, any ideas?

 

The roof can be cut from a section of this:

DSC06160.JPG

 

The pipe has change shape at one end:

DSC06161.JPG

 

Now where have I put thos roxey etched door handles?

 

Andy G

Looking good Andy.

 

Glad to see you are taking on the task of building panelled coaches and succeeding!  I like the way you formed the roof.  Wood might be a more resistant material although rather hefty if you are making roofs 'in the round'.  One moulding operation using the pipe method looks as if it could yield quite a few roofs.  Would it not just be easier to cadge some off-cuts from a builder and have sacrificial/disposable moulds?

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[uax6]

Colin, I would love to use a wooden former for the roofs, but sadly my woodworking skills are nowhere near good enough! The later HR coaches have a more of a pain, as they have a 'cove' profile. These may have to be proper bodges that get right, unless someone is daft enough to make me a mould!

 

I do happen to have a few bits of downpipe so I can 'waste' it by the above method at the minute (while the rayburn is lit, so that gives me about two months more for roof forming!). I wasn't intending to do them in the round, but it appears to work quite well, so until something else comes alone it will do.

 

Andy G

[uax6]

So today I have started from the begining on a set of new coaches, all HR full thirds. I've started with one of those jobs that seems huge, but is actually not that bad once you get going, putting rivet detail on the solebars.

The cut sheet of 20thou (which is actually really only scored by the cutter) has marks where the rivets go. I'm using 20thou plastic rod for the rivets, fitted into holes drilled in the sheet. I started with a 0.45mm drill, and then to a 0.5mm drill.

 

 

Then I needed to cut the rod so that it would just stick out of the sheet. So I made a little cutting jig out of two scrap bits of 20thou and a sliver of 10thou. The 10thou is sandwiched between the two 20thou layers. This gives me a 30thou cut:

 

The bits were then put into the holes with a pair of tweezers and stuck with solvent. I also did the same to the underframe I had made up, so the end result is this:

 

I think that the three hours it took to do the two sets was worth it, as the texture looks right.

 

 

I've also managed to find a bit of steel steam-pipe that will act as a former for the roofs, so not a bad days work. Tomorrow two more solebars to do.

 

BTW does anyone know of a source of the Drummond HR handrails (Lochgorm doesn't!).

 

Andy G

 

[Colin parks]

Hi Andy,

 

Nice bit of bolt work there! It'll make all the difference to the finished article.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[uax6]

Today I continued with rivetting. Did two more solebars, so nothing to see there.

 

I then continued with the made up one. It needed corner flitches putting on. These are 5thou strips which are fixed in place and then trimmed down:

 

Then the rivets are added in the same way:

 

So theres todays work done. I'm going to have to sand down the rivets gently to get them all the same length, but thats for another day. Hopefully I'll then be able to add brake cylinders, battery boxes and dynamo.

 

Andy G