Hornby R3203 West Country Class 34013 "Okehampton" - Conversion to 34005 "Barnstaple"?

[southernelectric]

Would the forthcoming Hornby R3203 Rebuilt WC Class loco 34013 "Okehampton" be a suitable donor loco for renumbering and renaming to 34005 "Barnstaple"?

 

From the few pics I've been able to locate of the protoype of Barnstaple and comparing with the pics of Okehampton, I can't see any reason why not - unless someone here knows otherwise?

 

http://www.Hornby.com/shop/productimage/?ImageID=18232&ProductID=20255

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/david_christie/6171791380/

 

Are there any differences between them that would render a renumber/rename of Okehampton not suitable/viable?

 

This wouldn't be a project I would do myself by the way - over to the good folks at TMC to do, and I'd probably get brass etched nameplates from Fox to add to it as well.

 

[JohnR]

I cant see any reason why not. Okehampton had a 5,500 gallon tender from rebuild, the same size as Barnstaple. The model doesnt seem to have the speedometer fitted, so unless you wanted to add that (and an AWS box) to Barnsaple, it would be a match for 34005 from 29/6/57 to 19/1/61.

[southernelectric]

I cant see any reason why not. Okehampton had a 5,500 gallon tender from rebuild, the same size as Barnstaple. The model doesnt seem to have the speedometer fitted, so unless you wanted to add that (and an AWS box) to Barnsaple, it would be a match for 34005 from 29/6/57 to 19/1/61.

 

Thanks John! As I'm somewhat uneducated in these matters (and most certainly when we're talking about steam locos!) can you confirm what you mean by speedometer and AWS box?

Presumably these were added in 1961?

[JohnR]

Yes, 34005 went in for an overhaul and these items were fitted. The AWS box is actually a battery box that was quite prominent on many locos, including the WC/BoBs, for the Automatic Warning System which gave an indication to the driver of the signal ahead. After the Lewisham disaster in 1957 (involving 34066 Spitfire), where a train crashed in the fog, installation of these was accelerated.

 

The speedometer was attached to the rear driving wheel on the left hand side of the locomotive, and a cable ran from this (on the axle) to the underside of the running plate. Again it was quite prominent and several of Hornby's models have had this, but not from the image, Okehampton.

 

EDIT:

 

Here is a picture of Barnstaple at Exeter Central showing the AWS on the front bufferbeam and the Speedo cable on the rear driving wheel.

 

http://flic.kr/p/fxxYW4

Edited January 12, 2014 by JohnR

[southernelectric]

Yes, 34005 went in for an overhaul and these items were fitted. The AWS box is actually a battery box that was quite prominent on many locos, including the WC/BoBs, for the Automatic Warning System which gave an indication to the driver of the signal ahead. After the Lewisham disaster in 1957 (involving 34066 Spitfire), where a train crashed in the fog, installation of these was accelerated.

 

The speedometer was attached to the rear driving wheel on the left hand side of the locomotive, and a cable ran from this (on the axle) to the underside of the running plate. Again it was quite prominent and several of Hornby's models have had this, but not from the image, Okehampton.

 

Thanks again John! This is one of the reasons I hang out here, I learn so much from people like yourself who are infinitely knowledgeable about these kinds of details. 

 

As has been mentioned elsewhere in other threads, Hornby's photo-shopped pictures of as-yet-released models may not necessarily reflect all of the detail of the model that arrives in the shops! So we might see it with the additions....guess we'll have wait and see. Either way, I'll probably go for it!

Edited January 12, 2014 by southernelectric

[JohnR]

I'd like to claim the credit, but detailed info such as that came from Richard Derry's Book of the West Country and Battle of Britain Pacifics" published by Irwell Press. These books (they have others on other classes) are invaluable when it comes to checking details on models, especially if renumbering.

[southernelectric]

Another couple of questions regarding the renumbering and renaming of the forthcoming Hornby Okehampton....

 

Looking at Fox Transfers website, they offer etched nameplates for Barnstaple in both red and black. The only colour photos I can find of the prototype (c.1964) show the loco with red nameplates. When, as in timeframe, would the black nameplates have been used?

 

Also, what if I was to get a second Okehampton and convert to Braunton. Red or black nameplates? Which came first? Braunton survived the cutter's torch and has black nameplates in preservation, as seen in picture attached.

 

Finally, what about the numbering on the cab (above the loco number)? What exactly are they and are these numbers unique to each locomotive or are they generic to the class?

 

Here's Braunton 'as preserved'. Still can't make out the numbers above the loco number on the cab though:

 

Edited February 3, 2014 by southernelectric

[brushman47544]

Another couple of questions regarding the renumbering and renaming of the forthcoming Hornby Okehampton....

 

Looking at Fox Transfers website, they offer etched nameplates for Barnstaple in both red and black. The only colour photos I can find of the prototype (c.1964) show the loco with red nameplates. When, as in timeframe, would the black nameplates have been used?

 

Also, what if I was to get a second Okehampton and convert to Braunton. Red or black nameplates? Which came first? Braunton survived the cutter's torch and has black nameplates in preservation, as seen in picture attached.

 

Finally, what about the numbering on the cab (above the loco number)? What exactly are they and are these numbers unique to each locomotive or are they generic to the class?

 

Here's Braunton 'as preserved'. Still can't make out the numbers above the loco number on the cab though:

 

The small numbers/letters above the number 34046 are 7P5FA, which is the power classification for WC/BB locos. Class 7 passenger, class 5 freight/goods and I think the A has something to do with having to have continuous vacuum brakes but perhaps someone else can confirm.

 

Can't say I've seen photos of WC/BB in BR days with black nameplates, they were always red. But there may have been exceptions, I suppose. Perhaps Fox produces a black nameplate to match its preserved status?

[Dunsignalling]

Another couple of questions regarding the renumbering and renaming of the forthcoming Hornby Okehampton....

 

Looking at Fox Transfers website, they offer etched nameplates for Barnstaple in both red and black. The only colour photos I can find of the prototype (c.1964) show the loco with red nameplates. When, as in timeframe, would the black nameplates have been used?

 

Also, what if I was to get a second Okehampton and convert to Braunton. Red or black nameplates? Which came first? Braunton survived the cutter's torch and has black nameplates in preservation, as seen in picture attached.

 

Finally, what about the numbering on the cab (above the loco number)? What exactly are they and are these numbers unique to each locomotive or are they generic to the class?

 

Here's Braunton 'as preserved'. Still can't make out the numbers above the loco number on the cab though:

 

Braunton_34046_Preserved - Resized.jpg

I have never seen it categorically stated but, from personal observation and analysis of photographic evidence, it appears that rebuilt locos came out of works with black nameplates but that certain sheds evidently didn't like the official colour.

 

Nine Elms and Exmouth Junction locos generally appear to have had them repainted red fairly quickly. Salisbury were somewhat slower to do so and Bournemouth (and South Eastern sheds) much slower. Eastleigh doesn't appear to have had an allocation of light pacifics before 1962. 

 

Most West Countries seem to have had red plates (and Battle of Britains, blue) by late-1961/early-1962 but it appears that one or two reverted to black after that. 

 

The only certain way to know is to find a clear photo taken at the right time for your loco. I can't find many of 34005, but she went from Bricklayers Arms to Salisbury in late 1961 and would guess her plates were probably red by the summer of 1962 (if they weren't already upon arrival).

 

The lettering above the running number should read "7P/6FA". i.e. BR power rating 7P/6F, SR power rating A. 

 

John

 

Edit: addition only

Edited February 4, 2014 by Dunsignalling

[dibber25]

According the SEMG on line, the power classification WAS 7P/5FA until late 1961 and 7P/6FA afterwards. Hornby-Dublo modelled 34005 with red nameplates, so I guess they were red at least at the time they did their research. The 'BB's certainly went through the black/red/blue sequence though most if not all were blue eventually. Impossible to put dates to them, though, as it was very much a local process.

[Graham_Muz]

As far as I understand it pre 1952 all loco nameplates were still painted in colours as their the original pre nationalisation company.
In 1952 BR decreed that all nameplates will be painted black but some sheds did not like this colour on their loco nameplates so continued to paint their loco nameplates unofficially red (or in the case of Battle of Britain loco's light blue) anyway.
BR officially went back to red in 1961.

[toboldlygo]

As has been said earlier if your modelling Barnstaple between it 57 and 61, Okehampton is a perfect donor - I think I used Plymouth myself.

 

Having modelled virtually the entire class in it's rebuilt or Air Smoothed Condition, Richard Derry's Book of the West Country's etc, has been an extremely valuable resource. However it always helps to check the vast number of images posted online for things that can be missed..

[Dunsignalling]

Also, what if I was to get a second Okehampton and convert to Braunton. Red or black nameplates? Which came first? Braunton survived the cutter's torch and has black nameplates in preservation, as seen in picture attached.

 

 

Braunton_34046_Preserved - Resized.jpg

Take care with Braunton.

 

If modelling her in service condition, you will need an old Hornby Dublo/Wrenn tender body, not (so far) offered by Hornby with any of their rebuilt WCs.

 

I think the photo shows the loco with a borrowed tender which it may not still have. I recall seeing one of the correct pattern under construction at Williton. 

 

Also bear in mind that the badge is a preservation era addition, 34046 didn't carry one in BR days.

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

According the SEMG on line, the power classification WAS 7P/5FA until late 1961 and 7P/6FA afterwards. Hornby-Dublo modelled 34005 with red nameplates, so I guess they were red at least at the time they did their research. The 'BB's certainly went through the black/red/blue sequence though most if not all were blue eventually. Impossible to put dates to them, though, as it was very much a local process.

Two small additions to this:

 

Non-rebuilt locos remained classified 7P/5FA.

 

Quite a few Battle of Britain nameplates appear to have gone straight from black to light blue. 

 

John

[Guest Belgian]

The A after the 7P/5F (sometimes stencilled on as 7P/5AF) was the original LSWR locomotive power rating, A being the highest used on the N15s etc, and it was introduced in 1914 by Robert Urie. It wasn't just based on tractive effort, but also boiler and braking power. In LSWR  and Maunsell-era Southern days it was painted on the platform valance behind the bufferbeam. It was carried on into Southern Railway and then BR(SR) days but only for the Western Section/Division engines and extended to new locomotives introduced after Grouping. There was also a yellow circle or triangle under the number to indicate that a locomotive was fitted with water softening treatment, two types of such being employed in BR days, the French TIA using a liquid from 1948 (marked with a circle) and the simpler BR one (triangle) using briquettes from 1956.

 

34005 had the triangle when first rebuilt as it had already been fitted with TIA which it retained but 34013 had a circle because its TIA was blanked off on rebuilding and the BR briquette system was fitted. Hornby correctly modelled 34004 'Plymouth' with the TIA doser tank on the tender: I'm not sure which other models had it included.

 

Looking at the two links provided it appears Hornby intend to produce 34013 with the TIA doser tank ans that 34005 had lost it and gained a triangle by the time it was shown in the photo (presumably at the 1961 LI  or 1962 LC overhaul - Derry doesn't indicate this happening)

 

Jeremy English

 

Information from Don Bradley's and Richard Derry's various books.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Belgian

[southernelectric]

Can't say I've seen photos of WC/BB in BR days with black nameplates, they were always red. But there may have been exceptions, I suppose. Perhaps Fox produces a black nameplate to match its preserved status?

 

They also do Barnstaple in black as well. I like the red on Barnstaple but the black just looks 'right' to me on Braunton for some reason.

Edited February 5, 2014 by southernelectric

[southernelectric]

Take care with Braunton.

 

If modelling her in service condition, you will need an old Hornby Dublo/Wrenn tender body, not (so far) offered by Hornby with any of their rebuilt WCs.

 

I think the photo shows the loco with a borrowed tender which it may not still have. I recall seeing one of the correct pattern under construction at Williton. 

 

Also bear in mind that the badge is a preservation era addition, 34046 didn't carry one in BR days.

 

John

 

Thanks - I would not be looking to convert Okehampton to Braunton 'as preserved' as the Hornby model of Okehampton is based on this class when in service. When I get around to building a layout (!) it will not be of a particular time or place, but I would like the locos to be fairly representative of the timeframe they are supposed to be from in their model form, if that makes sense. Even if not 100% accurate to prototype, if it's close I'm happy with that.

 

If I convert a second Okehampton to Braunton (in addition to Barnstaple), and if I also use the model Hornby are bringing out of Okehampton as the donor for both Barnstaple and Braunton. let's say it would represent (after conversion) Braunton for say 1957-1961, just like Barnstaple, and the real loco carried a black nameplate at some point during that time (or maybe even into 1962) then that's good enough for me!

 

The Barnstaple conversion will definitely have a red nameplate when I get it done, it just looks 'right' to me. Black nameplate on Braunton would provide a little bit of variety (of course Okehampton needs to actually turn up this year from Hornby first!) But even if the red nameplate didn't come until 1962 on Barnstaple in real life, but the model actually represents no later than 1961 due to no AWS box or speedometer that is close enough for me.

 

I have a Bachmann Deltic that has the wrong shed code on it. It's a model of (D)9005 and it has an FP (Finsbury Park) shed code above the data panel but the Deltic in question was never based there! It was a Gateshead-based loco until 1979 when it transferred to York. The model represents the loco as it appeared in the early 1970s pre-TOPS number and with the dropped 'D' prefix. So it should most definitely not have FP shed codes on it! No Detlics did in the early 1970s as I understand it.

 

As I sidenote, I have a second 9005 which I had personalised with my year of birth as the new number and my name on it in place of the original....and that loco didn't even exist, it's pure fantasy. So a little bit of 'modellers license' is permissible here :-)

[toboldlygo]

Here's what Braunton can look like with the Wrenn/Dublo 5,250gl tender conversion (circa April 2009 - so one of my early renamings)

 

 

And here's Barnstaple (circa February 2013)

 

 

[Combe Martin]

To re-iterate and clarify what's been said earlier. The rebuilt Braunton was attached to a re-bodied tender. These were of a similar but different body style to the 'cut down' tenders attached to other rebuilt Bullied Light Pacifics (see the pictures in post 18 above), and BR only built 4 of them. It's the one Bullied Light Pacific tender that Hornby don't currently have in their range. Ironically, 3 of the preserved rebuilt Light Pacifics had these tenders in BR days.

 

The photo of the preserved Braunton in post 7 above shows it attached to a borrowed Merchant Navy tender. This was because the preservation group had to do what BR did, and build a new tender body, (I'm not sure about the tender underframes), and the loco restoration was finished first. Braunton does now have the correct tender.

 

So to model Braunton at the moment you need to find a Hornby Dublo or Wrenn tender body. These do come up singly (without a loco) on Ebay occasionally but tend to sell for silly prices. Also, being an earlier generation model, they are not of the 'detail standard' of modern other Hornby tenders.

 

I do recall once seeing an advert where a number of these unpainted mouldings were being 'sold off'. I think it was part of a sale of old Wrenn left over spares. Someone must have acquired their stock.

 

There is one other option. I 'think' Albert Goodall (sadly no longer with us) made a white metal casting of a re-bodied tender top (just the top bit). The idea was that you sawed the top off a donor plastic tender body and glued this on. It's a few years since I've seen Albert Goodall's stand at an exhibition, and his range of Bullied 'bits' has now been acquired by RT models. I don't know if this tender top is currently available.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Combe Martin

[toboldlygo]

 

I do recall once seeing an advert where a number of these unpainted mouldings were being 'sold off'. I think it was part of a sale of old Wrenn left over spares. Someone must have acquired their stock.

 

They are actually new mouldings as far as I'm aware, having brought a number of them. It was far easier starting with a blank canvas than having to strip down an old one. I've covered the conversion several times in my blog including here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/135/entry-8021-something-western-this-way-comes/

 

If you use the existing tender frames you don't have to do much to make them fit, apart from removing the screw lug on the tender body and trimming back the lugs that keep the tender body square on the frames.

[Forester]

The early rebuilds (Barnstaple was the first) all had black plates, which looked very smart, as it highlighted the crests on most of the early West Countries. They went into red quite soon in some cases (Yeovil I think in '59, Okehampton and Dartmoor also around then) but with the name and crest now so close together, the red plates rather overpowered the detail of the crest.

 

In those days we "spotters" could often recognise a West Country by its crest before it was close enough to read the name or number. Certainly true of Merchant Navies (but not Battle of Britains obviously). It was not so easy when the plates were red. I still get called upon to identify photos of Bulleids where the number is indistinct, not visible, or appears to lie (more common than you might think!) but the crest, if there is one, gives the game away immediately.   

 

My collection of mostly black-plated rebuilds gets favourable comments from many who had thought nameplates were always red.

[PhilH]

If you are modelling 34046 as currently running you will have to, among other things, put emu wheels under the (new build) tender......

[Combe Martin]

Here's  a picture of Brauntons current tender.

[darren01]

Hi

You could build a kit of the Tender?.

[Combe Martin]

Just to clarify a few more bits about Brauton when in BR service ...

 

My picture in post 23 above shows the new tender with a deep 'water filler' protruding well above the water tank top, but a 1961 photo of it in service on the S&D, shows the water filler 'hatch' to be almost flush with the tank top. 

 

Also, 1960,61 and 62 colour photos of it on the S&D confirm that it had red backed nameplates then.