dj.spencer Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Does anybody know of a simple way to add weight to some kitbuilt wagons without making it a load, also is there some kind of scale weight guidelines i should adhere to? many thanks Dom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Huw Griffiths Posted February 9, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 9, 2010 Does anybody know of a simple way to add weight to some kitbuilt wagons without making it a load, also is there some kind of scale weight guidelines I should adhere to? many thanks Dom I'm not sure which wagons you're talking about - if the floor is flat, I'd be tempted to use a piece of lead sheet, under a false floor - the weight of the lead would probably hold it in place. It might even be possible to scribe the surface of the lead sheet, so it becomes the false floor. This isn't far removed from a method used by some tram - or coach - modellers. Alternatively, some model shops sell strips of lead blocks, with double sided foam fix-it pads on the back. You might be able to find somewhere to conceal some of these. As for scale weight guidelines, the NMRA have some of these on their website, amongst their Standards and Recommended Practices - the RP you need is RP20.1 (Car weights). Their website is www.nmra.org. A complete list of NMRA standards and RPs can be found at www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/consist.html - against each document in the list, there are flags for html and pdf versions - I'd go for the pdf every time. Please note that some of the documents are in the process of being revised / reissued - so some of them are offered as "draft versions for comment". For this reason, I'll be checking back myself in a few months, to see which have been updated - however, there I can't see car weight recommendations changing very much! I don't know which scale you model in but, if you're in British OO, you're probably best to use the values suggested for HO (British OO is a very similar size to American HO). I hope this helps. Regards, Huw. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted February 9, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 9, 2010 Does anybody know of a simple way to add weight to some kitbuilt wagons without making it a load, also is there some kind of scale weight guidelines i should adhere to? many thanks Dom Another option Dom is to use liquid lead as sold by Eileens Emporium.Mix it up with pva and place it on the underframe and let it dry.Add as much as you need to get your weight requirement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Another option Dom is to use liquid lead as sold by Eileens Emporium.Mix it up with pva and place it on the underframe and let it dry.Add as much as you need to get your weight requirement. Take care with Liquid Lead and PVA. A number of modellers have found that it expands over a period of time, which is a problem when it is packed into confined spaces. This was well documented in MRJ last year, having caused problems by splitting loco boilers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Here is an example of using liquid lead to try and avoid filling the inside, its up to 34g so far but I ideally need to pack in a little more to get it to at least 40g. The correct weight would be 50g really, 25g per axle but if all my coal wagons get to about 40g I should be alright with them all sprung. Note i've left the corners clear to allow for sprung buffers while I also had to clear the area under the wheels and allow for the springing. You shouldn't really stick lead with PVA as the PVA breaks down the lead and causes it to expand over time, a lot of pictures and posts recently about this breaking open brass built loco boilers! I'll admit though that getting it all to stick with Araldite is a lot harder and must be done in layers! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 The standard recommendation for British 4mm wagons is 25g per axle , all up weight , or 50g for a traditional wagon. I'm not sure how applicable the NMRA recommended weights are in our circumstances , since they depend on length , and virtually all US stock is bogie , which will automatically halve the weight per axle for a given length. I think they may also tend to weight stock much more heavily anyway - the NMRA recommendations produce results far heavier (up to twice the weight) than the equivalent NEM formula , though the NEM results look too light to me I use sheet lead , araldited in place . This is easy enough in vans - you put it inside. With open wagons, it has to go underneath. Where the area between the solebars is full depth and clear, I've not had any trouble getting sufficient lead in place Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Jim T Posted February 10, 2010 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 10, 2010 The standard recommendation for British 4mm wagons is 25g per axle , all up weight , or 50g for a traditional wagon. ... I use sheet lead , araldited in place . This is easy enough in vans - you put it inside. With open wagons, it has to go underneath. Where the area between the solebars is full depth and clear, I've not had any trouble getting sufficient lead in place Easier solution for vans, if you can get the roof off. I find the nice round weights the bank supplies (1p and 2p denominations particularly) glued to the floor do the trick. 6p to 10p worth will give you about 50g all up weight in a plastic kit built van. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Attaching the lead. Evostick is my choice, quick attachment, strong enough to stay put, easily removed, no corrosion problems after forty years. I did once use araldite to fix a large lump inside a polystyrene RTR loco boiler, and the whole thing went out of shape as the araldite cured, so have avoided it for this type of job since. The superiority of sheet lead cannot be over-emphasised for the 'underside of wagon' application among other things. You get more mass per unit volume than when using lead shot, and less exposure to oxidised surfaces which is better for health. Get you to a general builder's or plumber's merchant and ask for a square foot or thereabouts of code 7 lead. They may even have a suitable offcut to hand, returned for recycling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 The superiority of sheet lead cannot be over-emphasised for the 'underside of wagon' application among other things. You get more mass per unit volume than when using lead shot, and less exposure to oxidised surfaces which is better for health. Get you to a general builder's or plumber's merchant and ask for a square foot or thereabouts of code 7 lead. They may even have a suitable offcut to hand, returned for recycling. I normally use lead sheet where I can but the open wagons have quite a bit underneath them and cutting out all the slots in sheets of lead was more hassle than just using shot. I'm not sure how expensive the shot is from a gun shop compared to Eileens, i'd got my last lot 2nd hand at Scaleforum. I did get a small sample recently in a Partridge I was eating however! 50g is indeed ideal but i'm certainly not going to reach it in the wagon illustrated, up to 38g so far! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotcent Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 33 grams near enough for this wagon -- but it only has 6' wheelbase! Lead sheet cut very precisely to size, and doubled or trebled in size to be the same depth as the solebars. The layers can be soldered together, then stuck down with araldite rapid or equivalent. Evostick can do terrible things to the floors of plastic wagons (how do I know?). This one is moulded resin. the lead is sold as lead flashing, and the cheapest roll you can buy in B & Q costs ??45 and would do several hundred wagons. Mine fell off a friendly lorry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 30-something Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 Ive been thinking about wagon weights myself recently. I use kadees on my 4mm stock and I'm thinking of adding weight to give more fine control of the the couplings, was thinking of going to 100g per 2 axle short wheelbase wagons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 Sussex Model Centre do self adhesive weights (intended for flying scale aircraft) in 5 and 10g segments. I find these supremely useful and not so expensive either. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60B Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 A tip Shortliner gave me was tupence pieces and odd bolts/ nuts. Just pop two 2p pieces over an axle and your lAughing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 A tip Shortliner gave me was tupence pieces and odd bolts/ nuts. Just pop two 2p pieces over an axle and your lAughing. One point here is that 'copper' coins are now made of steel with a copper coating- there is a risk of corrosion occuring between the layers over time, so that the coins become unstuck, fall, and short out the track. If you do use old coins, put them inside the vehicle. Old keys (which seem to accumulate mysteriously..) are another source of weights. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny Emily Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 For weighting I've always used offcuts of lead flashing, cut with tin snips and hammered as flat as they need to be. It's a very pliable substance to work with. All my offcuts came from asking roofers nicely. Sometimes it does help being a girl, though they did wonder why I wanted them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Sussex Model Centre do self adhesive weights (intended for flying scale aircraft) in 5 and 10g segments. I find these supremely useful and not so expensive either. Dave. The same weights are use for tyre balancing. Buy online, much cheaper. Model shop £3.99 for 180 gms. Auto parts supplier £22.99 (inc p+p) for 6Kg. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Just had a look at NMRA standards. If weighted to this, a standard wagon, ie 10'wb, comes in at 105gms and something like a tube/ale pallet or CCT wagon 205gms. Where by NEM standards both should be 50gms. The answer, to my mind, lies somewhere between the two. In 4mm a "standard" wagon is about 75mm long, brake vans and 21/24½ tonners about 100mm, pipe/fruit D 110mm and tube wagon or CCT around 130mm. For RTR, out the box weights are :- "standard" wagon(van/mineral/open/presflo etc) 26-36 gms. Brake vans 46-56gms, though the Hornby Shark weighs 90gms. Fruit D (Dapol) 75gms and this feels about right. CCT(Maunsell C van) 69gms. Queen Mary 152gms and again, it feels about right. I think I will work out my own formula that would work for both the QM brake and the Fruit D and then apply to others. For what it's worth, I have a rake of HHAs which I have weighted to 250gms, they seem quite heavy, but they do sound good. But these are still 70gms short of NMRA standard of 30gm per 25mm + 15gm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mah644 Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 After trying a number of types of weights, I've settled on using the good old American penny as my primary weight on all goods types except open (unladen) flat cars. Wagons (gondolas) get a false floor which is easy to do with scribed plasticard or wood sheet. Vans (boxcars) are no problem if either the roof or chassis are separate. If not, the doors usually are separate, so the weights can be inserted through them. Flat cars can usually be weighted underneath if necessary. Some American manufacturers provide a cut-out chassis to which a metal sheet is affixed with a separate scribed floor atop that. Because there is so much variance, I usually try to have a specific weighted load for each flat. Relative to the NMRA weighting scheme cited previously, the important fact is that there is a specific uniform weight for each car, with a varying added weight based on length. Whether the NMRA standards can be applied directly to British outline equipment is problematic, but the basics of the standard should be applicable. Kindest Regards, Carl Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 ...Just had a look at NMRA standards. If weighted to this, a standard wagon, ie 10'wb, comes in at 105gms... For what it's worth, I have a rake of HHAs which I have weighted to 250gms, they seem quite heavy, but they do sound good. But these are still 70gms short of NMRA standard of 30gm per 25mm + 15gm Assuming these are 4mm scale, I think you've misread the NMRA recommendation, or miscalculated these weights. The recommendation for HO is one ounce plus half an ounce for every inch of length. As an example, a 16 ton mineral wagon is about 25/8" or 2.6" over headstocks so this would need 1 ounce + 1.3 ounces. 2.3 ounces is roughly 73 grams. At a rough guess, an HHA should be about ten inches long, so 1 ounce + 5 ounces. 6 ounces is about 170 grams. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Tomlinson Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Coopercraft used to do little packets of metal weights which were simple to glue on the underside of a wagon using any of Evostik, Superglue or Araldite - however I don't know if they are still available. On the subject of weight per axle, I'd suggest you need to ask the question of what kind of layout they'll be used on for optimum performance. If you have a shunting yard type layout, then weight at the higher end is probably better, to give extra hold for example when pushing through facing points, and up to 30g per axle, 60g total on a traditional wagon, sounds about right. If however you're running longish trains, particularly with gradients, I'd suggest about half those figures. My own layout was built to take freights of around 22 traditional vehicles, and has gradients close to 1:50, and the lighter weighting works fine with modern spec diesels and also steam with a bit of something in the boiler. I might add that I usually get away with pushing trains through facing points, although there can be the odd mishap often due to buffer locking! John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Assuming these are 4mm scale, I think you've misread the NMRA recommendation, or miscalculated these weights. The recommendation for HO is one ounce plus half an ounce for every inch of length. As an example, a 16 ton mineral wagon is about 25/8" or 2.6" over headstocks so this would need 1 ounce + 1.3 ounces. 2.3 ounces is roughly 73 grams. At a rough guess, an HHA should be about ten inches long, so 1 ounce + 5 ounces. 6 ounces is about 170 grams. Nick I did indeed. I was going by cooking instructions; ie, 40 minutes per ib + 40 minutes. Damned Americans, always putting things arse about face. So in English it is 15gm per 25mm + 30gm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcm@gwr Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 I agree with Carl, in that the most important factor is consistancy. Whatever formula you use, make sure that each wagon [of the same length] weighs the same. Likewise, coaches should also be the same as each other, this should ensure reliable running. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 I always use sheet lead as my source material. If space is not a problem I use it as a sheet. If space is tight I will cast it to shape, mainly because cast lead is heavier than sheet. As mentioned is is more important to be consistant with the weight rather than making them to heavy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian777999 Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 Regards post #8 : I have never heard of anybody having a problem fixing lead weights with Araldite. It is what I have always used. Has anybody else had problems using Araldite for this purpose ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethashenden Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 Regards post #8 : I have never heard of anybody having a problem fixing lead weights with Araldite. It is what I have always used. Has anybody else had problems using Araldite for this purpose ? That sounds like an Araldite/plastic problem, rather than an Araldite/lead problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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