hayfield

John

They may well get better and cheaper using plastic. The point I made was about the use of metal.

That will be the real break through and I see no sign of it happening soon.

The last time I asked, a machine was around the 1/4 million mark.

That is not going to come down to a grand in a short time scale. As Jol points out, what is the real demand?

I do not see any one prepared to take the risk outside of the two quoted examples of chucking money into a development programme.

Bernard

Sorry thought you were talking about the plastic ones, I have seen on TV a form of plastic which conducts electrical current, guess has enough metal dust mixed in with it, plus there is that new material they are trying to find an economic use for

Are we talking " cost to make ", as in materials? Time taken to produce? Labour and packaging?, I hope Phil doesn't read all these negative replies, as he might just say " sod the lot of you " . Then we would be up the creek without a paddle, because as far as I know there are no other firms producing parts for custom built track work, unless you want to go back to soldering copper paxolin and rail or rivets and rail, because I do not.

 

Give the guy a chance, the old owner had a work force behind him, whereas Phil has only himself at the minute.

 

Martyn.

Martyn

The cost of copperclad timbers has rocketed and the cost would be more than 100 chairs then add the cost etchings, what about the additional time these kits take to build and that a moulded chair looks far better (in my mind) than an etched one

Just looked at the C+L site, 500 3 bolt chairs £27.50, you telling me they cost this much to make?, and i noticed a lot of the other stuff has shot up in price as well.

Was  going to start a new layout this year, but at the price he is asking, that will not happen.

The price of these have gradually increased over the 5 or more years certainly with some products like copperclad everyone's in the same boat, plastic is dependant on the strength of the dollar and the exchange rate with the £, then with businesses coming out of recession they can increase their rates. Its not just the cost of producing the item that dictates its price, running a business become expensive.

There have been discussions about prices before and the main reasons are the cost of running a small business, minimum wages , rent, business rates etc. C&L was sold as in its previous state it was not profitable for the owner. To a certain extent Phil's overheads will be smaller which hopefully will make the business profitable again. I am of the opinion most of these businesses are only profitable when run as a cottage industry, or grow to a similar size to Peco where economies of scale kick in, but this is my own opinion which could be wrong

Anyway these 500 chairs will make about 4-5 turnouts, that's £7 per turnout, add a bit of rail and a few timbers and the component cost will vary between £12 and £15, which in turn will give you a bespoke turnout or crossing completely different to what's available off the shelf and half the price of Peco's latest offering

I have just bought an unmade K's TT scale pannier tank, was priced at 75p (15 shillings actually), these models now sell for 30 to 40 times this cost, using your analogy I should not have bought it

But its a free world and if you feel they are too expensive then don't use them

At a nominal £27.50 per 500 C+L chairs, my gads they have shot up in price!, how can they justify this cost.

How can such small bit of plastic cost this much, problem is no one else seem to make them, so he has the market cornered. 

The prices actually went up whilst Peter owned the business, there have been discussions before and the main reasons are the cost of running a small business, minimum wages , rent, business rates etc. C&L was sold as in its previous state it was not profitable for the owner. To a certain extent Phil's overheads will be smaller which hopefully will make the business profitable again. I am of the opinion most of these businesses are only profitable when run as a cottage industry, or when grown to a similar size as Peco, where economies of scale kick in, but this is my own opinion which could be wrong

Anyway these 500 chairs will make about 4-5 turnouts, that's £7 per turnout, add a bit of rail and a few timbers and the component cost will vary between £12 and £15, which in turn will give you a bespoke turnout or crossing completely different to what's available off the shelf and half the price of Peco's latest offering

It is a review which earns the pharmacy £28  this is one of the things I rant about Boots which pays no tax in this country yet demands that it's pharmacists complete as many reviews as possible so they can bill the NHS for them.  

Our small village has a Boots chemist (shows how many older folk live here), we have a super new medical centre but as I live in the village I have to go to Boots rather than use the in house pharmacy . Boots asked me if I wanted a flu jab, but decided to let the medical centre earn the fee, mainly as I and many others get fed up with the long winded service we get from Boots, as repeat prescriptions are now done somewhere else and take 3 to 4 days. Where I used to live the local chemist was run by the Triangle group, far superior service

I came across this lovely model railway at Chelmsford and district MRC exhibition a couple of weeks ago, not only is the standard of model making excellent and to a very high standard, but the charm of the twin cab locos made my day. I thought my photos were worth sharing. I think Mr J Dean takes all the credit

These locos were all scratch built

I do apologize for Mr T's (aka B.A. Baracus) badly grammer.

 

I think what the 'crazy fool' meant to say was that he won't be using any rivets.

 

A move, I suspect, that he will live to regret but why would he want an easy life.

 

If it does go bear shaped then mkII will have rivets installed.

 

 

PS: Ain't gettin' me on no plane!

Getting in to the 21st century then, DCC next?

Had a look in my loft but sadly came up with a blank, I have 4 Terriers but they may not have come in their original boxes.

 

I do have a set of instructions for a K's coal tank, whilst an 0-6-2 with the exception of the rear bogie, the chassis construction is much the same.

 

It is the earlier 70 series which has pre-quartered wheels and a double ended metal motor (mk 2 I think). The 80 series used plastic centred wheels with the axle holes being a D shape (to assist quartering) and all but the earliest kits came with the single ended plastic HMP2 motor.With the exception of fitting the wheels to the axles the construction is similar.

 

In the absence of any other replies happy to scan and send 

Here are three photos of the earlier chassis, the newer one works on much the same principals

These older chassis are far better in that the quality of the wheels and motor are superior to the Plastic D insert wheels and the HMP motor

However both models would be improved with more modern wheels, decent small motor and gearbox and perhaps some brake gear

By the way, just got some K's plastic wheels which are push fit without the screws, I may actually give them a go on something

Can you update us when you put it up for sale, I might be interested, even allowing for the state its in.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/122789051664?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649

Sorry missed the post

Although we all hope PECO will push on and expand the range, I hope there will be amendments to compensate for some immediate observations I noted this afternoon.

 

I have studied bullhead pointwork on many heritage railways. I have yet to see a point where the checkrails straddle less than five sleepers. The PECO checkrails only cover four giving a mickey mouse appearance.

 

The sleeper spacing is far too wide, especially in the area of the frog. On the prototype sleeper spacing is closer than on ordinary track to create greater stability for the pointwork as a whole unit. Also the sleepers are not at 90 degree rightangles to the straight stock rail creating an odd appearance.

 

My understanding from years ago is that PECO's large radius points roughly correspond to the sharpest pointwork in real life i.e. sharp siding points.

 

Personally I will continue to build my own pointwork.

 

But hopefully PECO might develop a super turnout for OO finescale affecionados....perhaps representing a C10 in real life with tighter sleeper spacing and checkrails covering at least five sleepers.

 

Its always exciting when a big name like PECO launch a new range or concept. The new point is nicely put together but personally I am disappointed at what seems to be lack of prototypical realism.

I have only seen the photos of both the flexible track and turnouts, they are so much better than what was on off before. Peco must be congratulated in making this product available

Its never going to please everyone, but those of us who build track also make compromises as some of the parts are just not available.

On a personal note I think this will give trackwork a much needed push towards better looking models and will give track building a boos and hopefully an increase in parts available

It all depends on what you are trying to achieve with your modelling, if you are trying to copy a preserved line, then fine build/buy stock which is on the line. 

There is also another way making a fictitious layout based on either a preserved line or in the style of a preserved line. For those who have a wide interest in stock from several regions its the perfect solution

The motor trade has been doing that for many a long year.

When was the Vauxhall Frontera introduced? That is the first example that I came across. Middle East in that case but the business soon moved much further east.

We need to be able to get 3D metal printing at a much cheaper rate before the home production of locomotives is possible and I don't think that is just around the corner.

Bernard

Bernard

Quite agree with you about both the price of the machines getting much cheaper and the print quality improving, but go back 20 years and how big (and expensive) were photo copiers, 15 years ago scanners were self contained and expensive and what ever happened to fax machines

The little thing under my computer does all, even in colour and for about £30

10 years ago my golfing buddy who is a jeweller pain over £20,000 for a 3D wax printer, and took several house to print off the items (several were done at the same time. It revolutionised his business and quickly paid for itself quickly. 5 to 10 years time we will have far cheaper hobby style machines making parts in easy to use machines

Could the shorting issues be down to the gauge being 18 mm not 18.2 mm owing to its age,

The motor is something like a Phantom (my W&H reference books are in the loft

Possibly a good buy given they seem to go for over £140 all the time, Bachmann NRM City of Truro for £90 inc Postage. Was oddly renumbered to City of London (although the front bufferbeam number was left untouched[i know it should not be there]) but the plates have knocked off quite easily and although the original plates are missing I have a set originally intended for the GBL model. Slight glue marks immediately below where the cab side plates were which is why I saying "possibly" as I really would like to shift them - have a tube of plastic polish which I think I will try before some T-cut equivalent. Also has a broken brake handle handle (assuming that makes sense) but they are pretty delicate thinks and I think my Dukedog has the same issue so it looks like a bulk buy of Markits brass one on the cards.

Saving a third off the retail price is very good, many change names and or numbers on locos they pay full price for, and decent metal parts far superior to plastic ones 

Setup costs, especially for long items such as coach sides and roofs are huge. I've heard £50k mentioned for a coach kit - not sure how true that is though.

 

edit: sorry this was in response to Clive's post. I'm not familiar with modern techniques.

I was told by a chap who owns a company producing plastic mouldings that moulds can be made in the far east at a fraction of the cost in the UK. not just wages reducing the prices, but modern computer controlled machines that cut the moulds. Peco wrote an article in Railway Modeller about their investments in both CAD and computer controlled mould making machinery.

Then in a few years we all may have high quality 3D printers at home, times are a changing

Parkside was still doing new GWR wagons up till their recent retirement and sale to Peco. But Parkside made their own tools and had their own moulding machine, so costs were kept down. Similarly with Barry Parks at Cambrian, now also retired. The size of the GWR wagon plastic kit market is not large. New diesinking for plastic kits is expensive. I doubt whether runs of under 1000 would now be viable in commercial terms. (1000 is ballpark figure, I haven't done any more precise sums.)

 

The key factor in the commercial viability for Cooper-Craft, Cambrian and Parkside was their ready availability in model shops. (The Saturday afternoon "I'll just have another one of those" impulse buys.)  Those days have gone.

But with Peco owning Parkside, perhaps availability may be greater within retail outlets creating a new demand for plastic wagon kits

Which is why I'm keen to strip it for the inside motion assemblies.

With the progress on the house renovation/expansion having taken much longer than expected all I have been able to do is look for bits and pieces, so frustrating !! Still work on the railway room recommences next Friday with the removal of the wall which separates the part of the room in the old house with the new extension, perhaps by the new year It will be ready for model making and a layout. 

The trailing axle bit is in the photo, that's why I suggested either a new chassis/mainframes or perhaps using etched hornblock guides.

The Brassmasters site is very good and below is a link to the drawings for the loco

http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/4F%20assembly%20drawings.htm

My other thought was that certain parts could be used with other kits. 

It certainly would make a nice project for the long winter nights ahead of us, only for a competent modeller, a definite NO NO for a novice.

I do actually have an EM gauge compensated chassis made from I think an Alan Gibson set of frames, but hoping they will fit a Wills SR Q class loco also a set of Alan Gibson 3F frames. The 4F was built to 00 gauge, could a set of Gibson frames be sweated on to the existing chassis? though if Brassmasters are willing to sell a chassis etch that seems the best solution

Isn't a 3D scan just an image in the same way a photo is an image of an object? Copyright and intellectual property rights would then only come into play if the image was used to recreate the object that had been scanned?

Are not the Great British Loco's scanned from actual models ? Seems to be no real copyright issues there

Just a hint of the condition of said 4F

Most of it just needs a good clean and the paers which have become un-soldered, soldered

A few bits flapping around, nothing a soldering iron cannon remedy

The chassis is the main issue, I would go for at least new mainframes if not a new chassis. Those who like to fettle, could with a little skill fit new etched hornblock guides.

Now on eBay  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/122789051664?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649 with a full set of photos

Not for the faint hearted 

I hope Phil get's things sorted as I'd hate to see him loose custom from slow mail orders.  I must admit I need to order stuff soon and it sounds like its a right old wait for orders to get sent out so that is worrying me a little.  I have no issues with it taking a few weeks, but I think months could just become irritating.

Phil has both invested his savings and given up paid employment to take over this business. He needs it to be a success more than we need the parts. From the discussions I had earlier in the year the stock came a bit jumbled up and required far more sorting than expected and the contents in the boxes may differ from what's written on the outside. I am certain in due time all will be well, but I think there may well have been unforeseen issues arise.

I will give him a call, but it may well be best to allow him to catch up rather than chat

But aren't kits such as Ratio just as old or older and they seem okay ?

Brian

I know very little about injection moulding except from conversations with Peter the previous C&L owner, these moulds do either require repair or replacement over time. Peco have invested huge sums of money in both the software and hardware to produce these moulds, plus have the ability to produce the parts in house. They are in a far better place than small cottage industries to retain the quality of the kit component parts

Liam

The best option is the thick sleepered track, as its about the same height, which uses the Exactoscale fast track bases, if you use the thin sleepered track then lay it on some thin card

The 4F arrived and is a Brassmasters in a bit of a sad state, still Mashima motor with a Highlevel 2 stage gearbox and a set of 20 mm Markit wheels. The loco body has been badly paint stripper with several parts becoming un-soldered and the chassis is slightly damaged, still the parts I wanted are fine, the kit is a far better quality kit than I expected and should recoupe some of what I paid for the whole lot

I also received the Keyser Terrier, better built than I thought but heavily painted. The chassis needs a complete clean and oil, the motor smokes which may just be down to grot on the armature, if not I have a spare motor. The good news is its all the older pre-plastic wheels and motor, will it convert to EM ? not too sure, the first job will be to find the Nucast chassis and build it to EM gauge

Finally I received a lot of  street lamps and signals and yard lamps (cost about a tenner) three of us have been asked to decorate a Christmas tree with a model railway theme at the local parish Church's Christmas tree festival, thought these may make a nice decoration either on the 009, 00 or 0-16.5 loop (hoping to have three loops each with a different scale/gauge running

I have known a couple of horror stories about probate and people leaving monies to charities where simple things like the amount left if before of after taxes paid (leaving the amounts left to loved ones reduced), in both occasions the charities were just money grabbers and had no concerns about the other beneficiaries, certainly those involved were less than charitable to the surviving families. A duly qualified person would have foreseen the pitfalls and in the long run been far cheaper.