hayfield

Nigel

Thanks for the info, you are quite correct I guess that they would have used flatbottom rail with some form of rail fixing, but in the early years of narrow gauge bullhead rail and chairs would have been used. Whilst I propose to do modern(ish) image modelling my view is that rather than solder rail to copperclad sleepers/timbers, chairs with the wrong profile rail would look better than soldered construction, and be easier to use.

As I said I would like to try out the system before investing too much into it

Any idea what TOC1 is please, as it says 240 chairs?

If the shed was to house mainline steam locos then I would guess it would be large radius turnouts, you will I guess be limited to the space available

The etches look very Jidenco.....

Snap that was my initial impression

Thanks for the reply

The ones I am after is the sprue of chairs (which has slide chairs at one end) are they TOC1 ? if so which size rail (code 60 or 75) do they take

Please can anyone inform me if these chairs and the rail are available to non members please,, but it is for a dual gauge HOm & HOe project which I am thinking about. I know the easy answer is to join the society, but initially I would like to explore the feasibility of the building process first

Or has anyone got some they wish to dispose of

Thanks

You may disagree, but in your post #4 there is your own example of the tricky bits of a plastic-sleepered single slip soldered up as a unit, presumably because you found it advantageous to do it that way.

I think as long as we reassure the OP that he will not outrun his competence by having a go, then there are a range of techniques, at least one of which he will get along with.

You are quite correct but firstly its an obtuse crossing (not common) secondly (as I said in #28) they are ply timbers, which require sub assemblies, 

What I was replying to was your statement "plastic chairs on their own can't hold the tricky bits.". I have clearly shown that plastic chairs when used with plastic timbers can hold the tricky bits in place.

Still each to their own, use whichever method suits you

Very true that plastic chairs on their own can't hold the tricky bits. By that method I really mean not using a) rivets, which I tried on a test piece and hated, plus it nearly drives you insane adding the cosmetic half chairs afterwards, and b) copperclad sleepers, again because of the chairs.

In a turnout there are inevitably small sections that chairs won't suffice for, but these can be pre-assembled onto bits of fret-waste on the bench and then epoxied in place.

Shown here (upside down of course), where the substrate has been added to coincide with sleeper positions.

P1000400.JPG

In a slip the principle is the same, the complicated bits are electrically a unit, so they can be soldered as a unit and then epoxied into place.

I must disagree with you, see #20  I have built both in 00sf and EM gauges turnouts without Common crossings built up as sub-assemblies. The only soldering required is producing the Vees, droppers and bonding wires. I would not use this method when sticking plastic chairs to ply timbers.

The proviso is that you use plastic timbers, for the common crossing for looks you use the Exactoscale E4CH 502A  Common crossing chairs, with the exception than in the B chair position on the wing rails you use a cut down Exactoscale E4CH 403A 0.8 mm check chair (for 00 & EM gauges) E4CH 402A (P4) , and at the central part of the knuckle (X chair position) you use the central part of a check chair. Additionally in the A chair position the tip of the vee is held up to the correct height by a sliver of 20 thou plasticard

Here are a few photos of a P4 turnout (forgot I built one using this method in P4), I have also built to EM and 00sf gauges using this method. The turnout base I am using is one of the Exactoscale plastic turnout bases which is fine for both P4 & EM gauges. For 00 gauge you will have to use timbers from the Exactoscale Point and Crossing pack E4XX PCT0

Here I have soldered a piece of 0.5 mm copperclad to the tip of the Vee, plasticard packing works just as well

Standard chairs have been added to the Vee, the copperclad has been trimmed back flush with the rail

First wing rail fabricated, standard chairs at the toe end, a modified check chair at the flared end (outside of one chair cut off leaving the spacer

The Vee is fitted first, followed by the straight stock rail, then the wing rail can be fitted

Second stock rail fitted along with the second wing rail

First switch rail fabricated waiting to be fitted

In conclusion the chairs hold the rail in place without any problems, just have to take a little time in adjusting the bends in the rail, and allow the solvent to set before removing the gauges. 

Here is a link to the Exactoscale Common crossing chair position sheet which will show chair positions

http://www.finescale.org.uk/pdfs/Common%20Crossings.pdf

Building slips with a soldered construction is much easier than one with plastic chairs as some of the rails are short and have other rails close by either side, which makes holding them in place with just plastic chairs difficult.

 

The difficult bits have been mentioned already and it is interesting that some people hinge the blades and some don't. I have found that the critical factor is the length. If you are building a 1 in 7, there are enough sleepers to enable a blade to move without hinges but with a 1 in 6 or shorter, you get into trouble as you only have one or three sleepers to provide the fixing.

 

Getting 2 blades to meet up with the stock rails exactly together on a double slip is key to success, as is the alignment through the centre of the slip.

 

Having said that, with care and not rushing, I built a double slip and a three way tandem very early in my point building to see if I could and both went well enough so they are not beyond a relative novice with the right tools, techniques and attitude!

Certainly agree with you about building slips with ordinary chairs can set some challenges, but lets face it using the incorrect parts building anything will possibly cause problems

Exactoscale do a range of 4 mm scale chairs for situations where non standard chairs are required, in fact by using the appropriate chair it is quite possible to build turnouts and crossings (certainly to the 00 gauge variants and EM gauge) with the minimum amount of soldering and in fact without having to get a soldering iron into very confined spaces. It may also be possible to use this method in P4 gauge but I have not tried it yet

The other critical measurement is that between the tips of both Vees, they must be at the exact distance apart to avoid kinks in the crossing

These chairs are for either the centre of diamond crossings (2 packs required) or the non slip road on a single slip

These chairs are for slips, one pack required for single slips, two for double slips.

There is a quick dodge for using the Exactoscale 0.8 mm check rail chairs both for the 00 gauge variants and EM gauge turnouts and crossings, and I have used these to set wing rails in place on common crossings

Various gauges have to be used at all times, but using plastic chairs on plastic timbers and sleepers is far easier than soldering rail to copperclad strip. If using ply timbers it is wise to make both common and obtuse crossings as sub assemblies using either wafer thin copperclad strip or shim left over from brass kits.

Maybe I'm missing something but I can't quite see how the switch rails are "hinged" as they appear to be fixed in chairs?

This photo may assist, though the ones in the photo are plastic which I use to fit the switch rail to the common crossing in turnouts, it also acts as an electrical insulator

The Exactoscale cast metal fishplates are exactly the same E4XX FP11 . They are 4 bolt locking fishplates in brass

As I said fishplates are fitted to both ends of the central part of the central part of the slip rail and soldered in place, the switch rails are just a push fit

Maybe I'm missing something but I can't quite see how the switch rails are "hinged" as they appear to be fixed in chairs?

The cast fishplates slide either side of the web in the rail, it is soldered to the centre rail, however the switch rail is a push fit. The other end of the switch rail is soldered to the tiebar, the gap between the switch and stock rails when open is 1,25/1.5 mm, the movement at the other end is just the pivot point, and the chairs under the switch rails are slide chairs except for the first one (which also acts as an anchor. Works a treat as the tiebar stops any forward or backwards movement. Must be a cast metal fishplates though for strength 

why not pivot the slip blades with a dressmakers pin as a pivot ?

Works perfectly well without doing this

There are no chairs in my pointwork above, I soldered directly to the copper clad strip. It was 10 years ago, I am not sure what I would now but as it is a home layout I am happy with how it looks.

There is no getting away from the fact that building in copperclad is a simpler construction method and one which suits most beginners, unless close inspection is needed they look as you can see excellent from the photo,

One issue now is the cost of copperclad strip which has rocketed up in price over the past 5 years, also whilst laborious you can life up the rail with 0.5 mm packing pieces so chairs can be used, can be very effective where most of the timbers are either Ply or plastic using chairs as designed, only using copperclad where rails are to be held in gauge in strategic positions, this may seem to be over complicating the issue only

Thanks again to all of you.Your replies are just the guidance and inspiration I need.Will peruse the suggested sites and grab a roll of lining paper and start playing around.I am replying immediately after reading this page so haven't yet looked for answers elsewhere.Can I ask about the track. Regardless of track code, are all  the points etc. compatible with all other track codes.

 

Andy. 

Andy

You can download plans from the Peco website of their turnouts and crossings, these may assist with your planning

Ah wonderful, I understand what you mean now - the centre section being on copper-clad PCB due to the proximity of the rails, and then using fishplates/bronze strip/etc. as the hinge. Thank you!

All the timbers on the double slip are Ply, the copperclad strips are 0.5 mm thick (brass shim could be used) to match the foot of the plastic chairs which hold the rail 0.5 mm above the timbers, then either held in place with the plastic chairs and or stuck in place with super glue.

You could use copperclad timbers if you preferred, but unless you include 0.5 mm spacers the chairs will not fit.

Others use Lil or Vero pins pushed through pre drilled holes which the rails are soldered to

As I said the slip rail is in 3 parts, the central part which must remain fixed to the timbers and 2 switch blades, which must be made to move freely

I stand over my "horizontal " comment , mdf is this regard is even worse then chip , even with quite extensive sub framing you will detect sagging over time , the same is true for chip even though it's not quite as bad , but it's a terribly heavy construction

 

I now use bb/bb Russian birch ply in all my baseboards and yes I used to use everything from mdf to chip in the past

I do agree that Ply is the best material for most jobs, but with MDF if it is braced appropriately and sealed against moisture it is more than adequate. I repeat I had 3 boards for a narrow gauge layout in our damp Club Room, it had been sealed with silk emulsion paint and showed no signs of deterioration. Plus I used Latex glue rather than PVA. If it had been made out of Ply I still would have treated it the same in those conditions

So how can I do track on a gradient with self levelling concrete?

Lift up one end of the baseboard or garden

You can say anything you like. Select one letter in the middle of the word, and set its colour to black.

 

It's the mod's job to remove offensive posts, not a nannying American "bad word filter".

 

Martin.

Whilst I am a totally paid up member of the politically incorrect society, that does not mean I can disregard others feelings. On the other hand one must be careful that words cannot be taken out of context and offend. A very fine line both ways

In this case had the word been used and not flagged up, would we have had several replies, I think not.  Would everyone have understood what the poster was saying, I think so. Would any one take offence, I guess only those who would look for any excuse to be offended

Firstly welcome along. A good trawl through this and other forums and websites should provide lots of suggestions but one you might consider can be found in Iain Rice's book published by Wild Swan. Don't be put off by the term finescale. There is a lot of useful info on layout planning and construction and while much is aimed at finescale modelling there's nothing wrong with Peco track and current ready to run locos and stock. The plan I'm thinking of is called Elan and takes 6'6" x 1'9" including fiddle yard. Unfortunately I've lent my copy of the book out but maybe someone else could provide a scan of the plan.

Iain's books are a wonderful inspiration, but remember they are sketches and the turnouts and crossings are not based on any prototypical size or commercially available products

Another good reference are the CJ Freezer's books especially the one for smaller layouts.

For someone new to the hobby I would suggest using the Peco Streamline products, simply as the track formation can easily be altered re-using the parts, though I would go for code 75 rather than the set track. The reason being just as you get experience and more stock your requirements are likely to alter. For the first year I would just enjoy playing trains (for the want of a better word) just to explore options available from altering track formations, having a baseboard which will allow you to alter the track plan

Well my K's Hudswell Clark is a bit long in the tooth now, I bought it when it first came on the market.  The frames were opened out for EM, plus some apertures in the frames etc.,

Needs a bit of TLC at present.

The footplate stays with the chassis, the top seperates, thus the mismatch of parts to be linked together... (Photo from the 'Barry Ten' collection).

 

PS - I must get some more photo's of this loco.

 

Barry Ten - Cardiff 08 - Hudswell Clark Loco.JPG

The simplest EM conversion I have done is to stick 30 thou black plasticard to the chassis sides, one at a time and drill axle holes as you go

Even if new wheels and motor are 

Thanks for the replies. Having now seen a photo of one that has been built I'll probably go for it but I'll have to get the price down. A new motor and wheels are going to be needed by what's been said but it will be a great addition to the fleet of typical late Victorian contractors locos that I'm building for my next layout.

Even if new wheels and motor are needed, Just look at the price of new kits for example a new small Southeastern Finecast model comes in at £90 without motor, wheels and gears. On the second hand market these locos are sought after and fetch good money

2 packs of Gibson wheels about £12 ish, there were plastic spoke version of Romford wheels, Roxey do them but unsure if they do the size you require

Mashima motors fetch a premium now, but good alternatives on eBay now. Gear boxes do vary in price, but one stage Highlevel boxes are not to expensive

But you never know the K's items may work and will be at nil cost

Here is a photo of a partially built double slip, look at the top of the photo between the two red lines (either side) the slip roads are made from 3 rails, two switch rails and the centre part, the centre part is fixed to the sleepers as they are soldered to very thin bits (0.5 mm) of copperclad, the cast fishplates are soldered at each end of the centre rail

You will see there is a break in the rails with a cast fishplate which joins the switch rails to the centre rail, this is a push fit as the tips of the switch blades are soldered to a tiebar

Here is a picture showing the switch rails in position

This photo shows all the rails fitted, and a better vies of the fishplates. the copperclad strips are cut back to the rail joins and the cosmetic chairs will be glued in place

 

As I posted previously, please can we give this chap a break.

 

If he has time I’m sure that he’ll be reading this thread and all the adverse ‘comments’ and helpful suggestions might just be putting further pressure on him which won’t be helping. 

 

I don’t know the chap from Adam, but shouldn’t we just let him get on with it and steadily build the business his way and accept that there will be a delay in orders being fulfilled. Recently on here, we’ve seen one small business buckle under the pressure of expectation. 

 

The very last thing that those of us that rely on track components would want would be to lose this unique source of supply.

 

I think I replied the same that the Previous owner stopped reading RMweb due to adverse comments, Phil also mentioned to me about some comments on here earlier. Thankfully he is fully committed to resolving the few remaining issues whilst keeping up with the latest orders. Quite philosophical about it, realises that a few people have had problems and he is trying to resolve them, some of which hopefully can be simple others may take time if relying on outside contractors.

I would like to repeat one of the problems has been with the email system due to a hiccup during the account and website being transferred, For those of us in the UK the simple course of action is to phone and chat through the situation especially if you have not paid

Whilst business rates can be a huge cost for small businesses, there is currently small business rates relief which ok could be withdrawn at any time, but if a business occupies less than I think under 200 sq/m, it is exempt from paying business rates. Local authorities do not directly gain from this which is set and collected by central government.

 

It is quite permissable to use a room in your house for business purposes and not have to pay business rates on that room. If you have a large shed in the garden "for your hobby" then it's a shed for your hobby. Providing you haven't got 40 tonne lorries coming and going every day who is to know? We had 2 40'x40' sheds built in the garden to house our collection of vintage buses as part of "our hobby".

 

Maybe if any of us lives in the area where C&L is now based would like to offer to help on a voluntary basis that may be appreciated by the new owner?

 roythebus, 

You are quite correct that you can work from home in most cases and you can employ family, but as soon as you employ non family members you have to obtain planning permission, how do I know my previous employer fell foul of these rules, 

So how did Phil's predecessors manage?

It's changed hands a couple of times in the last decade. I'm sure that neither Phil nor Pete would have blindly invested in something that was bleeding money.

 

I've read the sorry tales in this thread and have been affected by the delays myself. I've been helped out by others on the thread and I'm very grateful.

However, the business was not open for business for some months following the sale in order to ensure this sort of thing did not happen.

The explanations we hear now are the same as in May and June, when I was affected. If things aren't resolved by now, I'm worried that they will never be resolved.

I met Phil at the show in Gaydon and have spoken to him a few times by telephone. He is genuinely a very nice bloke but he clearly needs some help.

 

It was mentioned a couple of post ago that he has no show commitments in the immediate future and is concentrating on dealing with the backlog of orders. Would it not have been more appropriate for Phil to have concentrated on those confirmed orders before now and not have committed to so many shows?

Maybe he should focus either on the mail order, or show sales, until it is operating reliably but not both.

 

I am sure that there will be responses reminding me that it's Phil's business and he can run it the way he want but the fact is, considering customer satisfaction, it's not working the way Phil or many other would like.

I am sorry you feel this way but you are clearly unaware of the past history of C&L, K&L and Exactoscale

You are quite correct Phil is a nice bloke and as well as this he is the type of person who does not give up easily, which is good for us fellow modellers who want the ranges to continue. Please remember he put his cash up to keep the products available, something no one else would do.

The situation is nothing like it was in May and June, We all were warned well in advance that the business would be temporally closed during the hand over. If you failed to take notice its not their fault.

Having skim-read a lot of this, has anyone out there done a rough costing of running a business? A full time employee will cost around £18k a year, that's a 40 hour week, 52 weeks a year at minimum wage of say £8.70 an hour. There's employer's NI contributions, employer's statutory pension contributions, the annual price includes statutory holiday pay, so you effectively lose that employee for 5 weeks a year plus bank holidays, so you're only getting 46 weeks work out of that person. Time 4 employees, that's an additional half an employee to cover staff holidays. So £81k a year on basic staff costs alone without NI and pensions. If you include the business owner in that, it's another £18k...so well over £100k a year, or about £2k a week just to employ people. That is an awful lot of chairs and bits of rail to sell every week. If you reduce that to one employee, the owner, it boils down to a more affordable £400 a week, but still a lot of small product to sell.

 

Then there's the business van, tax, insurance, running costs, phone, office, lights, accounts, overheads...It's not cheap running a small business, I've been there and done it and lost money doing it.

You have really hit the nail on the head, plus if you employ staff you cannot run a business from home without planning consent. These were the financial problems the previous owner suffered, namely business rent and rates which were astronomical added to the ever increasing costs associated with employing staff.

You have either get yourself up and running with a large profitable cash flow quickly, or for the want of a better description "stay as a cottage industry"

Not relating to C&L one of the problems we as consumers now face is the costs businesses face, which are down to the change in business rates over the last 30 years and the cost of employing staff due to the regulations on employing workers now. Just look at the cost of labour if you have your car repaired, or work done on your house against what you paid 30 years ago.

Before anyone tries to make political capital out of this, I am not having a go at workers rights just saying there is a cost implication to everything. Example reduction in domestic rates equalled a big hike in business rates

If the model is a Hudswell Clarke 0-4-0ST it would be the ex TVR 'S' class no. 267 (GWR 1342). I built one of these many years ago and, for a K's kit, it went together very well. Due to the short wheelbase of the model I had it semi-permanently coupled to a small match truck with extra pickups fitted to avoid stalling on points. As built I used the K's wheels and motor which did last for a surprisingly long time but I have since reduced it to the basic components pending a complete rebuild using new parts.  £40 seems quite a reasonable price for the kit if complete and unbuilt. 

 

Somewhere I should have a second one built up with no cab and painted light green as an industrial shunter. It did look rather nice but never ran as well as the first, always seeming to run a bit crablike, and spent most of the time sitting in the back of sidings. I may have to dig into the "Great Lost Loco Graveyard" and see if I still have it.  

 

Dave R. 

Certainly I would use a Highlevel gearbox, with decent wheels (Gibson or Markits) plus one of the more modern small motors, if very careful the K,s wheels may stay true, but if you need to keep removing the wheelsets swap for Markit wheels