Izzy

The difference between DC feedback controllers and DCC decoders BEMF as I understand it is is that the former use quite low frequency, while the latter (although early ones didn’t), use higher frequency which doesn’t impact coreless/high efficiency motors in the way that low frequency does. Many decoders such as Zimo’s also have a choice of frequency levels/coreless settings - usually either 16khz or 32khz (Zimo is 20khz or 40khz ) - to assist with this aspect. Using DC feedback controllers with the better/more efficient motors, can or coreless, is still something to be avoided in general whenever possible in my experience. Izzy

I think this is probably because the problems with these particular locos result from a combination of factors. Diesels don’t need coupled wheels so the backlash in the geartrains can vary back and forth without any real impact on either looks or performance. Most also have rather larger motors, mainly flywheel fitted, and so these will be able to overcome/power through any small variations/tightness in the geartrain. I am of the view - it can only be an opinion since I have not had the opportunity to play/fiddle to destruction with one of these - that a bigger sized/more powerful motor might help overcome the main problems being encountered by some, and that they run well when the chassis has little friction and the small motor can cope with the loadings being asked of it. Izzy

Quite amazed that you are getting good control out of the AMR with the tiny coreless motor rather than the plain DC gaugemaster, but then although I use these sized motors in 2mm (7x16mm I believe) I would never consider them capable of 4mm use. Perhaps being heavily loaded (in relation to their power output), subdues them on feedback - with regard to over-reaction to the feedback pulses as normally occurs with coreless on DC feedback controllers. In regard to pickup, although split-axle current collection is normal in 2mm, many find it is not totally reliable and often fit what are referred to as ‘Simpson’ springs (after the originator), simply spring wires pressing on the exposed axle halves - which can also impart a bit of springing if desired. Doubt this is possible with a solid RTR chassis though. Izzy

I just fit them as you would if the board was made of wood. However...my boards are mostly made of layers of artist mount board glued together (with pva) rather than corrugated cardboard. I have tried just foamcore board, as have many others of course, and a sandwich of foamcore + mount board, but layered mountboard alone has proved best all-round. This construction is not particularly cheap but comes in at around half the weight or less than the same size produced using 1/4”/6mm ply, which was the primary requirement, and can be made easily and cleanly indoors with just a cutting board/craft knife/straight edge and some pva I am most interested in seeing if Ian’s method of construction might prove to be a cheaper option to consider. I have found that sealing these edges like this does seem to help strengthen the whole board. Some of the boards are now 5/8 years old and quite resilient - the two joined with hinges have had three layouts built/stripped/re-built on them, but they don’t have the same inherent strength that sheet ply would so could I also advise about being careful not to press too heavily down on the top surface? I have in the past done this when drilling holes for wiring etc and caused depressions.......which then needed pressing out from underneath... regards Izzy

Having built paper/card based baseboards for some years now (but not using cardboard such as this), could I suggest that you cover/wrap with tape all the exposed underside edges. Either using the kraft paper & pva as used on the top or masking tape. After recommendation I have been using the latter being quite thick and strong. The 2” rolls can be sliced narrower with a craft knife to suit. This will help prevent the edges getting too damaged, or as bad, continual painful paper cuts received when handling the board. Paper edges can of course be very sharp......you”ll guess how I know....... To prevent the boards warping I always cover mine with cork glued down with pva. Not cheap I know, but helps provide a stable and damp resistant surface. Mind, I haven’t built very big single boards, 16” x 60” being the biggest (and then hinged or bolted together). Good luck with this, I will follow with much interest. Izzy

Intrigued by just how much current 4 sound locos might draw I today hooked my Sprog II up to the small 4mm/P4 layout I have to see. I have never really thought about it having a Gaugemaster/MRC PA2 with it's 3.5amp output as my main system (which is fitted with a 5 din plug and used with which ever layout I want to use). With one loco running and three others just sitting with their sound on - I couldn't really have more than one actually moving at once since it's not that big and wouldn't be logistically feasible - I couldn't get the current draw to exceed about 200ma. A single loco seems to use between 30-50ma idling, and up to 150ma moving, but adding more idling doesn't seem to push up the draw by what I had expected. These readings come from the Sprog Slot monitor. I presume these figures would increase when the locos were all moving under heavy load, but it does seem that the 1amp Sprog II might be quite good enough for small layouts even with sound locos. Izzy

I am sure that if you were to contact Sprog they would advise with regard to II versus 3 (Andrew Crosland uses RMweb and might well reply to this thread). I have run 4 n/2mm locos at once using a II, the total current draw (in command station mode it will give this) being just 250ma, but what 4 sound fitted 4mm ones might draw I don’t know. Perhaps someone else will. Izzy

It's okay so long as you don't mind hacking the chassis around a bit......... I have a Zimo 26x20x8mm 3D speaker in mine along with a spare TTS chip while I wait for Hornby to release the 08 TTS decoder as a spare - which I hope they will do sometime. But I had to admit defeat and put the stay-alive capacitor + bits in the cab. From what I read the Hornby 08 has more room for the bits and pieces needed for DCC. Izzy

The only extra info I can give with regard to the sprog - I’m afraid I have no experience of the z21/Z21 so can’t offer a comparison - is that it is very versatile in that you can connect it up to virtually any flavour of laptop/computer you have around at the time, and although the onscreen throttles might not be brilliant, you can have as many open as you want. Both the wi-fi throttles available for Android and Apple are decent, though I must confess to preferring the latter. Really good for function button access if you have sound, and especially with a large screen device. I will say though that it is the decoder pro option that I use most. So easy to use. Jmri/dp can be installed/booted up and played with without the laptop etc being connected up to anything, so you can see what it is like. It is free to download/use and under constant revision/development. Izzy

I've just recently fitted a Digitrains/Paul Chetter install in a 4mm Heljan W&M railbus, and from what I can tell the PCB would appear to be the same. If it is, and seems likely since the MX644D is used, then the CN6 socket is the speaker connection. The problem is that Heljan did half a job in that they provide the socket - but with no matching plug. So I cut off the top of the socket and hard wired the wires. The pads for a stay-alive capacitor are located on the reverse side of the MX644D so need adding before fitting it in place if you use one. Hope these shots help. I must say that I received first rate help and advice from Jeremy at Digitrains with the install, and Paul Chetter was fantastic in subsequently helping me make some alterations to the install to suit my personal tastes in the way it worked. It sounds great using the large Zimo sugar lump speaker in the luggage space. I guess there is a bit more room in an O gauge one. Izzy

Having built a number of similar small layouts over the years, and bearing in mind the limited space, may I suggest the revised plan below. Given the timescale and platform size I think you have to stick to using 2 car DMU's or single railcars for passenger stock, which thus don't need a run-round, and instead place this for any goods trains. In this way you can have a DMU stand in the platform while a goods enters the station or visa-versa, which offers a bit more variety than just being able to run one type of train in/out of the station in turn. Even two shorter 57' coaches of the surburban type would need a bigger run-round than can usually be accomodated in the space were loco hauled passenger trains used. And by this time they would not really have existed except in mainline use. Placing the platform at the end means it will fit on one board, and saves trying to disguise the joint across the platform if it bridges the two boards, which always shows given the flat/plain nature of the surfaces involved. I have also changed the double-slip to a single-slip as that is all you really need there to shunt the two sidings. If it were also possible I would try and increase the width of the layout, 200mm is only really enough the get three tracks side-by-side (I am guessing this is OO/4mm), and 250mm or ideally 300mm would be much better for allowing room for a platform at the rear. Very tight otherwise. Every cm/inch helps here. regards, Izzy

I would suggest that as you have a limited budget at present then your first option of getting a Sprog seems the best in the longer term at the moment since it will still be of use when you do upgrade to a better specified system when funds permit. Many such as myself prefer to use one to set up and program decoder installs even when other systems are available simply because of the ease of use via JMRI/decoder pro + laptop. If you do choose to get one and it will be mainly for this and also as a back-up system then the Sprog II should be sufficient. Although it's rated at 1amp for normal use this is more than enough, even with a few sound decoders going at once. Generally power supply issues with DCC systems arise when users want to run lots of accesories off the DCC bus such as points/signals/servos etc. Izzy

Sorry, just a thought, meant to add it to my previous post that as you are DCC adding a stay-alive would most probably cure any running issues re pick-up, always assuming there is space inside. They are quite cheap and easy to make yourself so long as the decoder has the connection wires/pads to add them. Several of the Zimo decoders have the circuitry on board - mainly the sound versions MX645/MX644D etc. Izzy

They do look nice. I am sure there are many exGE region modellers like me who wished they had produced the earlier version that ran there, and especially at their current price. Ah well....... Izzy

Yes. I have a TTS installed in one loco as function only for the sound and also just tested one by hooking it up to the track supply so I think what you are proposing is perfectly feasible - so long as you can juggle several decoder addresses at the same time! Izzy

Having now fitted stay-alives to a few items it has to be said that it is a distinct advantage, but.... in many cases you have to add the stay-alive to decoders by soldering wires on yourself, with some it isn't possible because useful connections on the decoders just don't exist, and to get the kind of extended 'dead rail' running that is possible (seconds etc) you need a very large capacitance. This needs quite a bit of space and/or is expensive. Izzy

To me the arcing looks just like the result you often get when you accidently touch the wires together momentarily from a 16v ac supply. Logic would suggest that the same result is occuring before the 'juicer' can detect the opposing current and switch it. Perhaps the combination of steel rail and higher voltage makes it more visible than might be seen/not seen with lower voltage or/and N/s rail. Izzy

Yes, it does seem that way. The W10 laptop I have is the little 11.6" Medion job Aldi sold before Xmas with a touchscreen and twice the spec of other similar ones. A Medion was the first laptop I bought back in W98 days and they do still seem to have different specs with regard to Win installs than other makes even thought they are now part of Lenovo. I actually got it to run the sprog because after a re-install my 'main/old' Win7 laptop just won't accept the sprog being hooked up at all, has a paddy and does a BSD every time. After the huge tussle to do the wipe/clean re-install - windows update was changed so it's a pig to update a re-install I discovered too late - I won't do it again to try and use it. If you want to stop this dive into settings/personalisation and turn off the 'lock screen' settings. This will stop I quote " get fun facts, tips and more from Windows and Cortana on your lock screen". You can set a picture to always show instead, or just a plain screen. Izzy

You're not alone in wondering what MS does with it's updates as I have just had a similar problem, but in my case after the latest W10 update the sprog drivers had been uninstalled.......(this is one of the early sprogs ( v 2.7) with two sets of drivers for the serial-to-usb interface). Installing the un-signed drivers is a pain, but now complicated it seems by a further trick MS have put up their sleeves in that you have to go through the routine for each driver... whereas in the past once you had done it both could be installed one after the other. Now, as soon as you install an un-signed driver the system re-boots automatically as it finishes the install............. Izzy

Sorry, can't find any shots, but RossPop's post really covers it with his beautifully lined 7mm example anyway. This is from the HMRS website with reference to their LMS lining transfers. " LINED BLACK LOCOS (The 'Intermediate Passenger' or' Standard Mixed Traffic' livery, 1928 to about 1940). These locos were finished in varnished black. In principle there was a red line where a crimson lake loco would have had a yellow one, except that steps and tender sideframes were unlined, as were the footplate angles of standard tank locos. Tender and cabside panels often had rounded corners, though not when on raised beadings with square corners. " It's many moons ago now but I think I 'cheated' by using squared off corners since that was easier to excecute with a bow pen for me. I think I used thinned Humbrol enamel rather than red ink, but can't really remember now. All I would advise if I may is that you apply the lining over a coat of hard varnish. And then let down/weather the loco afterwards. That way you can 'rescue' any mistakes you make by wiping off quickly. Actually I used Halfords acrylic varnish out of a rattle can. Dries very quickly so aids preventing dust sticking to the surface finish and enamel can be removed easily with a light application of turps/white spirit without attacking the varnish. Izzy

I built several of these finished in black with the simple single red line. Much easier to do with a bow pen!.... I'll see if I can find any shots to give you an idea of what it looks like, although they may be very poor quality since most were lost in a digital storage loss some years back. Izzy

I've had a similar experience with a TTS decoder when I had to change/re-attach the wires to it. Afterwards the sound output was a bit muffled and not as loud, so I assumed the amplifier had somehow been affected. At the maximum volume setting 8 you can hear it as if it is set at the lowest level 1 and not as crisp, and this is with it coupled up to a Zimo 3D speaker. It will get replaced with a Zimo when I can save up the pennies. Despite all their drawbacks/deficiences I believe they are a good way to experience what a sound fitted loco is like at reasonable cost. Izzy

As a general rule all the Parkside 4mm kits I have made came with Romford wheels. I think the odd one might have had Gibsons, not sure though. Both these wheel types are 12mm dia whereas the Hornby/Bachmann/Dapol ones (in the kits) seem to be 12.5mm besides often not having the standard 26mm axle length, and trying to use them does cause fitment and ride-height problems. Not sure what wheels are now provided in the Peco-Parkside kits. Anyone know? Anyway, I have found that most of the bearing holes in the solebars need opening up and/or drilling deeper to ensure the bearings seat properly and the solebars fit into place and are upright with the wheels/axles in place. Otherwise they splay out towards the bottom of the w-iron. Having the axles a loose fit in the bearings isn't too much of an issue, a (little) bit of slop will allow for less than perfect squareness, whereas if they are tight then the wheels won't run freely. Izzy

Given that the current collection seems to be the problem, (and as I said in a previous post I always fit split-axle collection through the bogie wheels to 0-4-4/4-4-0's to prevent it) although changing the decoder and/or fitting a stay-alive might/will help, could I suggest that in the first instance you just run the loco for a while on DC to let the pick-ups bed-in so they are sitting positively on the wheel rims. This might help to overcome the intermittent nature of the current supply which in itself could be sending the wrong signals to whatever decoder is used. This doesn't of course show up under DC, the motor just using whatever current/volts comes it's way. As you have discovered while some decoders have a small amount of memory to remember their settings with iffy current supplies - even if the motor/lights performance isn't great - others just reset. All I would say regarding decoders is that time has shown me that in the long run that getting the best is cheaper/less hassle/more reliable. I now only use Zimo in 4mm and Zimo/CT in 2mm. Youchoos has a lot of info on stay-alives and hooking them up, and a web search will reveal a lot more options and info. regards, Izzy

Just a thought, how is the rear bogie is attached to the chassis, is it fixed height wise? It might be preventing the rear drivers from properly sitting on the rail enough to get good electrical contact. Some decoder makes really don't like a less than perfect current supply and go back to square one when power is lost even for a miniscule time. Turning off DC running can help as they do get confused with the electrical signals and whether they are getting DC or DCC power. Adding a stay-alive (if the decoder will take one) would help if you haven't got current collection from the bogie as well as the drivers. Izzy