adb968008

16 minutes ago, Legend said:

Aye . I have to say I’ve changed my position on this . I was originally of the view that people should know how to open and lock doors . I remember in the seventies as we ran onto the platform into Paisley Gilmour St if on the Ayr dmu, that I had the window down and hand on the lock opening it before the train stopped - mainly because my main concern was not getting the door open and the train departing taking me to next station .  I had never swung the door open before we stopped though .  But times have changed . People are used to sliding doors and just don’t know how to deal with these doors . And I do remember sitting in a restaurant watching a couples kid as he ran and bounced off glass Doors . They thought it very funny while my heart was in my mouth . So always remember there really are stupid people out there that need to be catered for in rules and procedures .  It may well be that we need to do something on heritage railways too 

European visitors arent used to the side of the road we drive on, should we change sides ?

in my mispent youth ive entered a carriage via an open window, and it wasnt a door droplight (admittedly today i’d probably get stuck like a fat cork in a bottle if I tried now), people are stupid…. But I can still climb the inter connecting cables of a class 800 to the roof if I wanted, nothing stops me getting a free ride on a container flat should it stop in a station, and Ive seen kids standing on the back drivers cab exterior on sprinters before now… you’ll never stop a determined idiot.

Sensible people will generally comply with instructions, but to me the issue is no one is giving the instructions… thats my point about control and influence… you can come up with a hundred ways to save them from themselves, but often the easiest way is to educate them…

Although ive done hundreds of thousands of miles by rail, it came as a surprise to me to find 313’s have exit ladders in the cab… it never crossed my mind… yet if a crash happened and its every man for themselves.. it would be the sliding doors and a jump out i’d be heading for.

11 minutes ago, david.hill64 said:

There are indications that the ORR is concerned about the exemptions that apply to Heritage Railways, so we may well find further tightening of many issues.

There was an incident recently on the Great Central Railway where a passenger fell from a door in a situation where on a modern railway Selective Door Opening would have prevented the occurrence. It is likely that door issues will be exercising the minds of ORR staff.

 

If the solution was door bolts and stewards, then wcrc has cornered the market in compliant rolling stock supply to heritage railways, should their mainline career be over…

but i’m sure wcrcs management may find that solution puzzling.

it seems like a new design electrically locking Mk1 door, with interior handles and none opening windows could become a good business venture… theres a lot of mk1’s in preservation, way more than WCRCs fleet, and Heritage railway mk1 doors can often be rotten anyway, even before any mods…

many years ago I remember a heritage railway mk1 opening hinge side, before falling off… back in the day. preserved railway standards on some lines can be way way below wcrc mk1s… so replacing the door might be a requirement just from rust alone.

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

Take a good read back through this thread to learn why what is happening, is happening.  No, the ORR has no concept of a business needing to make a profit, that isn't it's job. 
 

…

 

Again, you are assuming that the odd accident "trains" us.  With parenting, this might work ("Don't touch that it's hot!") but being hit on the head by an opening train door at 20mph, you may not get the chance to learn from.

…

 

I will ask the same two questions of all resistant to HSE legislation:

1. How many deaths on the railways would you think an acceptable number?

2. How many would be acceptable if they are relatives or friends of yours?

I dont disagree, but why then are preserved railways not being asked to implement cdl… as they go at 25mph ?

(dont want a load of paperwork exemptions thrown at me in reply… if the risk at 20 is the same at 100, then the whl should not be exempt, but neither should any preserved railway… I would argue the risk is much higher on a voluntary operated railway by amateurs working at a weekend than 30 year career professionals running every day… indeed the totality of heritage railway incidents completely out numbers wcrcs digressions,

This is one of the aspects of the ORR I feel is turning a blind eye too, because of the commercial implications it has to heritage railways, whilst the argument suggested they should bot be considering the commercial implications on the mainline.

whilst I am sure that sits uneasy, falling off victoria bridge (10mph), hitting castlecroft tunnel (c5mph) , or falling out of Damens loop (0mph) are all life changing possibilities, without a cdl, a door lock or a steward.

6 minutes ago, DCB said:

Sounds to ,me that it could end right here, with no steam to Mallaig and a catastrophe for the West Highland area tourist industry.  The ORR clearly has no concept of a business needing to make a profit  and have a viable business plan.     They clearly would prefer the service run with a class 68 and mk5 stock.    The fact that the attraction is Harry Potter based hasn't really sunk in yet, Yes they should have cut back the platforms permanently and used a couple of red livery GWR locos really, but the trains have traditionally been sold out long in advance.   A big part of the attraction is those iconic Mk1 coaches, even if they are TSOs instead of the corridor stock in the films.   If the ORR win this they will want seat belts for the driver and fireman next.    How about banning standing on commuter trains if they are that concerned with safety?   It' been proved to be a killer  accident reports

Theres plenty of places I could imagine a 68 and mk5’s, but the WHL isnt one of them..

17 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Indeed so - but as this case demonstrates its not the regulator which is 'overexerting' - a UK Judge decided on the basis of the evidence put before them the regulators reasoning and demands were sound. If the ORR was somehow acting well outside what the law thought was proportionate it would have something to say on the matter.

 

Which means that any change has to start with a fundamental rethink of UK law - including a conscious decision to junk several centuries of case law / legal prescient - maybe even as far back as 1066.

 

Somehow, I suspect the chances of that happening are sim....

 

 

Or another challenge based on changed circumstances and more demonstrable evidence.

People think this is all over, my reading of it felt like a first probing round with some deliberate ambiguity leaving open avenues for later use…

A second round could be much more robust.

either that or they were mad.

 if they have nothing to lose, and stubborn enough to fight, This could go on for years.

3 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 

The fact that organisations generally don't go round challenging the ORR is thus because professional legal advice (not the views of an armchair lawyer looking through rose tinted glasses) will conclude that the ORRs regulations are likely to be proportionate to what THE LAW requires where they to be tested in the UK courts.

 

 

Or the cost of complying is less than the cost of the outcome of a successful challenge.

Theres no point bringing a challenge if its not worth it.

Quiescence is acquiessence.

If wcrc had a solution that costs more than cdl but wasnt cdl, and went to court over trying to get it through, even if they won it would be pyrrhic really.

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Because when hauled up in front of a judge in a British court practices which would be tolerated elsewhere are JUDGED ILLEGAL UNDER UK LAW!

 

Moreover the ORR (and other regulations) do NOT write the actual laws which the regulations are based round. The ORR (and others) draw up regulations based on the simple premise that if entities follow them then the UK legal system will not find any laws have been transgressed.

 

For example the ORRs regulations which are all about preventing access to the trackside (and taking action against companies which do not proactively try and stop such things) are not something they came up with because they felt like it - the regulations are a symptom of the fact that Parliamentary legislation has required railways to be fenced off from adjoining land etc.

 

Another example would be the use of High-Visibility clothing - again its the fact that we have legislation called the Health and Safety At Work Act enforced by the UK courts which frames the regulations the ORR issue.

 

Most laws arent watertight, contain loopholes to allow latitude where laws alone are suffice to cover all circumstances.

its about the interpretation of the law, as very few are golden and absolute.

This is why the whole legal system exists, and why interpretation of those laws is allowed to be challenged, even if some think they shouldn't be challenged.

The failure is in the interpretation initially, as it shouldnt need to get to the point of challenge, the law usually allows a lot of latitude on some subjects as long as its ultimately followed.

its a British failing, going back to 1066 and French occupiers seeking control of their serfs.. the culture pervades… just because we have laws, doesnt mean automatically we are safer it just means we are more controlled, the magna carta gave back some rights to challenge, but those delegated to enforce can be known to over exert authority, when perhaps a more consultative approach could avoid misinterpretations.

wcrc lost the JV, but it doesnt feel like this battle is over.

On 30/03/2024 at 20:07, Steamport Southport said:

 

A few million quid in the bank?

 

If someone paid me $3million to act as a cat then "Meeow!" as that is how much Taylor Swift apparently got.

 

 

Seen how much Taylor Swift's cat is worth....

 

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20240207-taylor-swifts-cat-olivia-benson-is-allegedly-the-3rd-richest-pet-ever

 

 

 

Jason

And people complain that Larry the no10 cat costs the nation too much.

8 hours ago, vanbasher said:

Thank you so very much for this Chris, I'm just a little nervous about the whole soldering thing. I know you can buy the whole kit with an EM2 speaker from DC kits but I'll first have to get a soldering iron & some solder, then I'll need to get some instructions on how & where to wire it up. Thank you so very much though for your help. 

Have a wander to a local model railway exhibition, chances are someone will have a stand demonstrating soldering… thats how my little one learnt.

A road under a station makes most sense, as it connects both sides of an elevated railway line that doesnt interfere with the community it runs through that way.

Norwood Junction

Battersea Park

Queenstown road

Clapham High Street

Wandsworth Road

Peckham Rye

loughborough jn

Elephant and Castle

Carshalton

Wallington

Balham - famously had a bomb hit and going into the tube space taking a bus into the hole with it in ww2

5 hours ago, kintbury jon said:

Yes I was wondering about declassifying a first, perhaps one of the 64xx series.  I should probably just stick with my Hornby Mk 2E coaches but the Bachmann ones do look nicer. 

I havent tried it, but theres Hornby Loram mk2f TSOs for £20 … 

I could imagine it might be possible to put a £38 Bachmann TSO body on it with a bit of effort.. plus optional £20 for lights.

tbh, we just need more mk2fs TSOs made… Blue Grey seem to be in starvation too.

I have a lot of Bachmann mk2fs.. IC, SC, DRS, Blue and VT, plus  1 rake of Hornby 2Es and 2Ds in , which I retrofitted with leds stripped from cheap Hornby BSOs.. I do prefer the finish of Bachmanns, the Hornby 2E isnt bad but the 2Ds are … well i’m sure someones going to have a retool of them.

3 hours ago, Bucoops said:

 

 

The Americans can offer a very nice veranda view (and yes I was hanging onto the reins, just in case!) - not a million miles from where you were - Lancaster County PA.

 

Ive been there too, though my verandah was this…

on one of their scheduled commercial steam hauled freight turns..

Having traveled by rail on every continent, I am convinced the UK has the most stringent rail regulation in the world. I am not convinced however that such great cost makes it any safer than a good number of developed countries, quite often what fails is a once in a lifetime combination of events, or failure to follow the said regulations… but the administration of such regulation makes the legals easier afterwards. I put it down to British dna of control, rather than the more worldwide natural human behaviour of influence….

In the above photos, no one told us not to go on the track of a live 100mph railway line, or do a pts or wear an orange jacket.. we simply signed a waiver..which explainedvthe risks, required behaviour and consequences.

I signed another for this one.. then just did as I was advised.

and here.. I signed nothing…

and ended in the mountains of Southern Brazil.

People on the track, no HV clothing, and thunderboxes with open verandahs, opening windows at every seat, steps protected by a simple chain, again on the mainline.

Are we being over protective to the point we lack common sense that other nations have ? … Darwins natural selection applies both ways, the idiots can wipe themselves out, but over protected can too wipe themselves out if they don't have exposure to learn.

imo Some risk with influence is better than no risk under control… its called parenting.

I’m not saying wcrc shouldnt comply, but i am questioning why we appear more extremist, alarmist, confrontational and non negotiable than other countries in application ?

1 hour ago, TravisM said:

Here's a new one, nicked from Facebook but 50023 "HOWE" at Oxford Carriage Sidings on ECS, to form the (1F71) 17.00 to Paddington Service on 14/2/89.  Note the black windscreen surround over the white.

 

 

if thats Batman, here’s Robin..

flickr url / not mine.

making this one the joker…

flickr url, omg definitely not mine in that livery.

In the often quoted USA, land of liability and lawsuits…

I enjoyed a high speed ride from New York Penn station to Newark the other week with this as my view, and fresh air for my journey.

i could have hung on to the platform on the loco for some urban surfing there.

adding to this on departure the guard was actually at this door, and simply walked off down the train, obviously its not his job description to secure it, which would have been preferable as it was winter weather afterall.

On 24/03/2024 at 15:29, Fredo said:

Is the loco fitted with air brakes and modern equipment on its tender?

I await to be amazed on that …

but it says its this era, but it wasnt AB until 2022, they could claim it in the 2019-2022 period with VB only.

Tbh..

This..

https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/40310/39-652DC-WSL-Bachmann-BR-MK2F-FO-First-Open-Coach-in-InterCity

£59 inc lighting.

Paint out the first class yellow stripe,  the “1” on the doors will come off with a cocktail stick, and make a call on whether your ok with the seating interiors.

if you didnt fancy painting..

You could buy a TSO body from Bachmann spares

https://Bachmann-spares.co.uk/product/category/1125/mk2f-tso-coach-body---intercity-(swallow)-6115-39-678dc/e3965-200-18
£38

but for under £100 your pretty much there, and choose if you want TSO seats too.

The personal thing for me on the BSO will be the interior.. but if you buy a TSO body, and an interior your heading to the £90’s.. and your frame is still wrong… if your less bothered on interior you could always buy a cheap old 1970’s Hornby mk2 (c£5) and do some cut/shut on an interior using it.

Problem is BSO/FO bodies, tbh they wont fetch much.

I dont see a bargain route here, all options head towards the £90’s but there is a means to an end if you dont mind paying… thats why they are swimming around the bargain bins.

On 26/03/2024 at 12:44, Legend said:

Is it me or has it all gone quiet on the KR front ?  Shouldn’t the Leader and 4DD have arrived or be on their way ?  Don’t seem to have had any announcements for a while - I think the last was the WD 2-10-0 . 

Its a little quiet for all manufacturers

Ally Pally was noticeably absent of announcements (Palvan was the only one I saw). 

Have to wonder if those cashing in, are declaring it on next years tax returns or if ebay will tell the hmrc who may ask them about their little business.

Kind of hard to justify it as a personal possession if youve a whole bunch onsale weeks after release at clearly for profit pricing.

In this regard @taliesin can walk high with his conscience clear.

21 minutes ago, brushman47544 said:

 

 

If all the 25s have similar production quantities, Phil and Jennie have a mammoth task ahead as they all arrive. I hope they can get on top of it but I can see people defecting to Bachmann if their versions (I’m sure we’ll see more than the two announced so far in the next quarterly announcements) are as good as or almost, and are available pretty much immediately.

The Bachmann one does look goid, but those who preordered the SLW class 25 at £185 are well advised to hold the course, they could obviously buy both, I intend to.

16 hours ago, Southernman46 said:

Indeed. I remember being greeted by my parents on the platform at Birmingham New Street in December 1975 waiting for our "Merrymaker" excursion back to Kent - them from shopping in Brum and me back from successfully bunking Saltley - with the good news that they had secured my 12th birthday present in Beatties ............................. I was so excited 👍

Somewhere ive still got my Hornby 24/1 converts… filing off the horns, smoothing the roof and a bit of filler!

8 hours ago, dj_crisp said:

Yeah the interior is a bit different ;) on the subject of BSO interiors I thought Bachmanns trick of printing on clear plastic for the guards cage area was quite neat as previously I've done this with etches. I'm thinking there perhaps should be some more windows in the guards area so may try and open them out but as yet have found any decent photos.

 

This is a mk2e but tbh between any of the brakes theres not much in it ..

Flickr url/ not mine

There should be a window in the corridor sliding door, and next to it, plus in the compartment another larger window hiding behind the door above the desk into the baggage area, in addition to the peep hole you can see above the chair.

1 hour ago, dj_crisp said:

 

I just happen to have a few MK2fs on my workbench.... 

 

 

A comparison between a BSO and a TSO... there's not a great deal of differences that I reckon can't be dealt with. There's a few interesting holes in Mk2d/e differences zones ;)

 

 

Circuit boards are different but I think going from a bso to a tso will be ok.

 

 

Probably steps is the hardest thing. Personally I wouldn't try and remove a CDL as making it look ok will be quite alot of effort.

 

Hope this helps

What about the interior ?

😀

thats by far the biggest difference…

I had considered buying some cheap Bachmann BSOs for their lighting alone, BSOs can be hard to sell, even harder with stripped out  lights, but I did similar with Hornbys mk1/mk2f’s and tbh they are cheaper and the lighting strip has a capacitor. Its no effort to string some wire between Bachmanns coach pickups, through the loo to the roof (i’m DC so dont need DCC capabilities) and fit the Hornby lighting board in, ended up costing me about a tenner in the stripping/disposal of the Hornby coach.

Mix of buffered and non buffered (HST) mk3’s…

Are the mk3’s owned by LSL too?

Paint it blue so people dont confuse it with Tornado.

😀

23 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

The statement in the court judgement was from Network Rail not ORR.

 

even 5 services a day equates to a core fleet of around 60 vehicles rather than 130. I don’t think their original exemption even listed 130 vehicles but hey Ho, that seems to be part of the West Coast smoke & mirrors BS

It lists 128.

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2023-08/nr-regulation-5-exemption-certificate-for-wcrc.pdf

it doesnt change that the claim of 4 is false, and therefore the calculations are inaccurate. It ignores other factors highlighted.

I’m no fan of wcrc but ive no axe to grind either.

Ive also scanned that list and tested it, for example Accurascales mk2’s are not listed…they have cdl… so reality is they have more.

Given maintenance and overhauls, special coaches etc, it is reasonable to have that many imo.

Agreed though right now they are all assets of scrap value if they cannot be used, and that value is lower than the restorative to use value… ignoring whatever else maybe required beyond cdl.