adb968008

4 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

Am I missing something?

I've just had something pop up from Rails in my Faceache feed about pre-orders being open for the KR Models Class 40, which is claiming "We have been working closely with the Class 40 Preservation Society to bring you the most up-to-date and accurate model of the Whistler that is possible." (other opinions may or may not be available) but when I decided to have a curious look all there were to pre order were a load of fictional liveries and preserved examples.  Nothing from their days in normal service.

I'll leave the discussion of the model accuracy and fidelity to those who have got their electron microscopes and photo editing software on standby but I must admit to being genuinely baffled as to the choice of launch liveries including no "normal service" offers and three comedy liveries.

If you keep scrolling down the page you’ll the normal service ones under Bachmann, they are also cheaper, instock now and you know what your getting.

On 01/09/2023 at 10:27, zr2498 said:

Are the speakers going to fighting each other?

 

Many many years ago, I saw the early Lima EPs for their 40…

They had two different new mechanisms proposed…

one was a twin pan cake on each bogie, the other was like the 20, with a centre motor, with shaft and gear tower on the bogie.

The twin pancake, when placed on the track immediately wanted to go opposite directions because of how they initially wired them, so the 40 just jumped up and down on the spot.

😀

The other with the 20 motor didnt really set the world on fire either as it was too light and only drove one bogie, unlike the 20 which had a solid metal block it was a standard plastic chassis.

They later went the default cheap route, a single pancake like all the others, but if you look at the dummy bogie it still has the planned gear tower, just empty.

Lima also made D200, 40106, 40145, D335 and 40126 as early releases, with 40066 (Scottish headcode conversion) which no one repeated since until Bachmann last year, and 40001… £27.95 in those days.

I recall a cold start of 40145 at Bury once, on a winter mist morning, took 30 minutes, filled not just the museum yard but most of the town centre in white diesel fumes which made their own inversion layer in the air, the fire service even arrived.

😀

Heres an idea…

1 hour ago, ruggedpeak said:

There are things to do on the West Coast of Scotland other than the Harry Potter train? Who knew...

 

The likely result of not lining the pockets of WCRC and Smith by their extraction a £1 million profit back to England is that the money will most likely be spent and retained by local businesses. So not running the Jacobite may well be beneficial to local businesses overall. Yes, the stewards and others may have to find alternative seasonal work but tourists won't be saying "I will save that money I was going to spend on the Jacobite and take it back home". So unlikely to be any net loss to the area and quite likely to be a net gain.

Or maybe this years holidays are booked so too late to cancel.

For me, a return visit to Knysna, South Africa has been postponed a decade now, i thought one day steam may return there, but alas it hasn’t returned and neither have I.

The last train has gone..

i’m sure its business as usual, but the cherry on top of the cake is not.

but just like Scotland, South Africa has much else to offer, just less in Knysna, a fishing harbour much like Mallaig.

(spot the elephant).

someday…

https://www.outeniquachootjoe.com

The sleeping beast will reawaken.

Until then Tourism changed, Knysna initially lost to a diesel operation to Mossel Bay… that in turn failed because of falling demand… the tourists slowly evaporated away from the train… simply because it was the focal point in the vicinity, as part of a wider trip across the garden route for tourists… Knysna lost 115k rail tourists.. pretty much same as claimed by the Jacobite.

As best as I can see, Knysna is still one of SAs top tourist spots but 2007 stats suggest people stayed longer than a few days, than 2017 which suggest 1-2 days. its not all down to the train but clearly tourism trends changed., most likely in favour of safari park accommodation, which might explain why the train hasn't returned.

Coming back here

Will Scotland benefit ? Perhaps one of the foreign owned Scotch whisky distilleries might ?

https://whisky1.wordpress.com/distillery-owners-guide-who-belongs-to-whom/

I think if this was prepaid the argument is valid.

But they are only taking payment when shipped.

So consider the call like a lottery win and be patient.
 

Shipping is very quick, and it is wrapped so neatly my wife thought it was a box of chocolates.. and thats the brown paper wrapping. she still wasnt convinced it wasn't a gift when seeing the tissue wrapped container inside the metal tin.

The most parcels ive ever sent in a “normal” after hours working day was about 30, it was tiring and none of them were wrapped like that… so 000’s is going to take a while.

Each of these locos is sent with love for sure, and it feels like each one is being quality checked.

Without doubt this is gold standard attention to detail, thats going to take a while… scaling that and keeping the standard won’t be easy.

ive not got around to removing the loco from its plastic display case/ cradle yet, but it looks fantastic.

7 hours ago, Gilbert said:

 Seen today:

A preserved one, 25278. Albeit I dont think its been blue in preservation.

it looks like Blue has beaten Green by a long way in terms of demand…. Shifting demographics perhaps ?

6 hours ago, dj_crisp said:

 

Thanks again for the info.

 

I've very crudely added some detail to the BSO guards interior that could be viewed from the exterior.

 

 

Opening the windows out meant I needed to remove Bachmanns attempt at a brake wheel and as its visible Ive addedd a stenson wheel instead.  The base maybe improved if i can see it when illuminated but for the time being is a quick and simple approach. There's another window added to side.

looks good, each time I went into a guards vestibule, the wheel was in the way.

oddly the omission I see is the pie warmer… did mk2 D/e/F have this ?

The PA system too isnt in the tooling.

indeed the back head could be a nice 3D project with piewarmer, pa system box, fire extinguisher and a spare red painted shackle too.

going further add the desk against the body wall, with an A4 black and red timing register.

some memories there, but I doubt you can see much in the model.

Thanks for all your efforts. I will

enjoy your work for years to come

12 minutes ago, david.hill64 said:

I agree: my point was that the ORR will have door issues and their management on heritage lines under review because of incidents like that at the GCR.

The GCR incident was unfortunate, but also at a “mainline” station.

Any number of lines have any number of “halts” that arent even close to train length, some maybe 1 coach platforms with a 6 coach train.. and thats even if the platform reaches door height.

Ive always found these dangerous myself, even as a seasoned traveller, as quite often unless your a regular to the line youve no idea the stopping point.

I certainly have seen occasion where a 6 coach stopped at a 1 coach platform, followed by a door opening 2-3 coaches off the platform, matched by frenzied shouting by the guard running up the track to prevent it.

I dont think its unreasonable to, to insist a calling train match the length of the platform.

27 minutes ago, Neil said:

 

Now you're just being stupid.

 

Of course all statistics are out of date, but a six year period leading up to Covid (which would cause all sorts of anomalies) seems pretty good at giving a guide to the comparative safety levels of European railways. If you want to find more up to date statistics which demonstrate that UK railways are less safe than their European counterparts then please feel free to enlighten us.

 

I dont need to, i’m already convinced, without needing a 5 year old report, covering a period 5-9 years old using 11 year old single year snapshot, from arguably a biased source, with broken links that acknowledges its data collection is flawed to convince me.

if thats stupid to question it,  whats considered intelligent .. fake news ?

its a good read, but I think the science should be better.

Its an example of why some webpages should expire and self delete.

for actual data, try this and make your own stats.. you can bend them anyway you like, and the EU certainly does like to make itself look better than anyone else, at any oppourtunity.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/transport/data/database

read, but be inquisitive, theres always more detail under the headline. You can always find multiple points of view, before making your own opinion… indeed looking at this history of this thread my opinion of wcrc, the orr and the legislation has shifted considerably in my opinion of where it started, based on sensible posters here who have shared their own thoughts and facts as its moved along, and i’m very appreciative to those with greater industry insight for doing so, I recognise I maybe asking stupid questions, but then i’m on the outside of the industry with a very different initial exposure… you can guarentee in the normal world the questions would be even less informed, its just that normal people really dont seem to care… Ask me about regulations for safety on canal boats…yep i become just another ignorant normal who doesnt care.

31 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

 

Fascinating figures.

 

Interesting to see how much safer the UK is compared with Western Europe never mind anywhere else.

Indeed when you read the text….

Quote

Comparison of Passenger and Workforce Fatality Rates Across Europe (Source ORR, 2013)

Its 11 year old snapshot, being used in a survey that covers 2015-2019 window. The URL itself is a broken link.

All stats can mask a story, how about picking 2004 to brag about instead.
 

so its not even relevent to the time period it covers, which itself is 5 years old.

i’m sure railways in 1666 were quite safe too, anyone can pick an arbitrary year, from a single rail administration and report it at a European level…

the article itself acknowledges it is flawed..

Quote

The methods used to collect safety data can vary widely between railway administrations as can its quality, making comparisons on a global basis difficult.

So its a feel good report rather than an accurate standardised scientific study.

Greenlands railways are pretty safe too I hear ?

i dont need to be convinced our railways are safe, but this article doesnt do it.

1 hour ago, Neil said:

 

 

1 hour ago, Neil said:

 

Bizarre logic here; exposing people to the risk of death makes them safer?

 

really ?

You never learned the green cross code then ?

Have you never crossed the road ?

Ever boiled a pan, made a fire, checked sell by dates, food temperatures, learned to swim ?

Learn to drive a car, operate a lift…

life is a risk, you face hundreds of risks every day, from falling out of bed in a morning to slipping in the shower at night.

No one is saving you from almost all of them, you have to learn by exposure in order to survive…

opening a door is but one of them, for some reason a train door seems a much great risk than a car door, yet cyclists are swiped by them daily..and they learn the hard way too… ive walked into a front door before now but ive not fitted cdl to my house.

sometimes over protection results in forgetting why the protection was put in place resulting in new risks being created… speed bumps are a state sponsored cyclist killer too.

Try reading your travel insurance, its a phd thesis in exempting themselves for insuring your risk...

page 99 (yes it is that big and I am the sad one that reads these docs)…

https://www.postoffice.co.uk/dam6/jcr:f0ccc9a3-ee0e-4aed-aece-99fc04ac6a7f/travel-insurance-terms-and-conditions-ERV.pdf
Do not drink too much alcohol overseas, as your not insured… conveniently too much isnt quantified.. so 1 beer a day at the Euros it is then… you can guarentee in a big payout situation they will be studying your bmi, history, social media anything to justify that you cant handle 2 beers…

whats more the state has even advised you of the risk, thus supporting the insurance industry even further..

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-68687789

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/germany/euro-2024

be careful on a German train.. some heritage stock doesnt even have doors…

12 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 

 

However extending all ORR regulations to Heritage Railways would be just like banning the sales of ladders and DIY tools to the general public - the fall out would be widespread and voters would not tolerate it. Heritage railways carry many more passengers, employ many more people and generate far more economic benefits (not to mention tax revenues) across the UK as a whole than charter operations do in each calendar year.

 

But the ORR isnt supposed to care about commercials.

tbh i’m not sure the public would kick up a stink about CDL on carriages on preserved railways, because they dont understand it, as we see with the public response to wcrc the media simply says “its safety related”.

There isnt significant backlash about the Jacobite emerging.. so they wont care about some 1mile back yard operation run by an industrial.

Sure the enthusiast segment would kick up a fuss, but they are just as relevant to discussion on heritage railways as they are to the wcrc (ie irrelevant ).

At the end of the day, even if the lines got 130 coaches, they rarely run more than 4 sets a day on any one preserved line (and less than 6 in a rake), so the c£150k cost falls safely with the VPF… to rework the wording of a recent judgement.

imo the argument is clear, and should an incident occur there would have to be questions to answer as to why there is a blind eye or a blindspot in regulation.

16 minutes ago, Legend said:

Aye . I have to say I’ve changed my position on this . I was originally of the view that people should know how to open and lock doors . I remember in the seventies as we ran onto the platform into Paisley Gilmour St if on the Ayr dmu, that I had the window down and hand on the lock opening it before the train stopped - mainly because my main concern was not getting the door open and the train departing taking me to next station .  I had never swung the door open before we stopped though .  But times have changed . People are used to sliding doors and just don’t know how to deal with these doors . And I do remember sitting in a restaurant watching a couples kid as he ran and bounced off glass Doors . They thought it very funny while my heart was in my mouth . So always remember there really are stupid people out there that need to be catered for in rules and procedures .  It may well be that we need to do something on heritage railways too 

European visitors arent used to the side of the road we drive on, should we change sides ?

in my mispent youth ive entered a carriage via an open window, and it wasnt a door droplight (admittedly today i’d probably get stuck like a fat cork in a bottle if I tried now), people are stupid…. But I can still climb the inter connecting cables of a class 800 to the roof if I wanted, nothing stops me getting a free ride on a container flat should it stop in a station, and Ive seen kids standing on the back drivers cab exterior on sprinters before now… you’ll never stop a determined idiot.

Sensible people will generally comply with instructions, but to me the issue is no one is giving the instructions… thats my point about control and influence… you can come up with a hundred ways to save them from themselves, but often the easiest way is to educate them…

Although ive done hundreds of thousands of miles by rail, it came as a surprise to me to find 313’s have exit ladders in the cab… it never crossed my mind… yet if a crash happened and its every man for themselves.. it would be the sliding doors and a jump out i’d be heading for.

11 minutes ago, david.hill64 said:

There are indications that the ORR is concerned about the exemptions that apply to Heritage Railways, so we may well find further tightening of many issues.

There was an incident recently on the Great Central Railway where a passenger fell from a door in a situation where on a modern railway Selective Door Opening would have prevented the occurrence. It is likely that door issues will be exercising the minds of ORR staff.

 

If the solution was door bolts and stewards, then wcrc has cornered the market in compliant rolling stock supply to heritage railways, should their mainline career be over…

but i’m sure wcrcs management may find that solution puzzling.

it seems like a new design electrically locking Mk1 door, with interior handles and none opening windows could become a good business venture… theres a lot of mk1’s in preservation, way more than WCRCs fleet, and Heritage railway mk1 doors can often be rotten anyway, even before any mods…

many years ago I remember a heritage railway mk1 opening hinge side, before falling off… back in the day. preserved railway standards on some lines can be way way below wcrc mk1s… so replacing the door might be a requirement just from rust alone.

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

Take a good read back through this thread to learn why what is happening, is happening.  No, the ORR has no concept of a business needing to make a profit, that isn't it's job. 
 

…

 

Again, you are assuming that the odd accident "trains" us.  With parenting, this might work ("Don't touch that it's hot!") but being hit on the head by an opening train door at 20mph, you may not get the chance to learn from.

…

 

I will ask the same two questions of all resistant to HSE legislation:

1. How many deaths on the railways would you think an acceptable number?

2. How many would be acceptable if they are relatives or friends of yours?

I dont disagree, but why then are preserved railways not being asked to implement cdl… as they go at 25mph ?

(dont want a load of paperwork exemptions thrown at me in reply… if the risk at 20 is the same at 100, then the whl should not be exempt, but neither should any preserved railway… I would argue the risk is much higher on a voluntary operated railway by amateurs working at a weekend than 30 year career professionals running every day… indeed the totality of heritage railway incidents completely out numbers wcrcs digressions,

This is one of the aspects of the ORR I feel is turning a blind eye too, because of the commercial implications it has to heritage railways, whilst the argument suggested they should bot be considering the commercial implications on the mainline.

whilst I am sure that sits uneasy, falling off victoria bridge (10mph), hitting castlecroft tunnel (c5mph) , or falling out of Damens loop (0mph) are all life changing possibilities, without a cdl, a door lock or a steward.

6 minutes ago, DCB said:

Sounds to ,me that it could end right here, with no steam to Mallaig and a catastrophe for the West Highland area tourist industry.  The ORR clearly has no concept of a business needing to make a profit  and have a viable business plan.     They clearly would prefer the service run with a class 68 and mk5 stock.    The fact that the attraction is Harry Potter based hasn't really sunk in yet, Yes they should have cut back the platforms permanently and used a couple of red livery GWR locos really, but the trains have traditionally been sold out long in advance.   A big part of the attraction is those iconic Mk1 coaches, even if they are TSOs instead of the corridor stock in the films.   If the ORR win this they will want seat belts for the driver and fireman next.    How about banning standing on commuter trains if they are that concerned with safety?   It' been proved to be a killer  accident reports

Theres plenty of places I could imagine a 68 and mk5’s, but the WHL isnt one of them..

17 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Indeed so - but as this case demonstrates its not the regulator which is 'overexerting' - a UK Judge decided on the basis of the evidence put before them the regulators reasoning and demands were sound. If the ORR was somehow acting well outside what the law thought was proportionate it would have something to say on the matter.

 

Which means that any change has to start with a fundamental rethink of UK law - including a conscious decision to junk several centuries of case law / legal prescient - maybe even as far back as 1066.

 

Somehow, I suspect the chances of that happening are sim....

 

 

Or another challenge based on changed circumstances and more demonstrable evidence.

People think this is all over, my reading of it felt like a first probing round with some deliberate ambiguity leaving open avenues for later use…

A second round could be much more robust.

either that or they were mad.

 if they have nothing to lose, and stubborn enough to fight, This could go on for years.

3 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 

The fact that organisations generally don't go round challenging the ORR is thus because professional legal advice (not the views of an armchair lawyer looking through rose tinted glasses) will conclude that the ORRs regulations are likely to be proportionate to what THE LAW requires where they to be tested in the UK courts.

 

 

Or the cost of complying is less than the cost of the outcome of a successful challenge.

Theres no point bringing a challenge if its not worth it.

Quiescence is acquiessence.

If wcrc had a solution that costs more than cdl but wasnt cdl, and went to court over trying to get it through, even if they won it would be pyrrhic really.

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Because when hauled up in front of a judge in a British court practices which would be tolerated elsewhere are JUDGED ILLEGAL UNDER UK LAW!

 

Moreover the ORR (and other regulations) do NOT write the actual laws which the regulations are based round. The ORR (and others) draw up regulations based on the simple premise that if entities follow them then the UK legal system will not find any laws have been transgressed.

 

For example the ORRs regulations which are all about preventing access to the trackside (and taking action against companies which do not proactively try and stop such things) are not something they came up with because they felt like it - the regulations are a symptom of the fact that Parliamentary legislation has required railways to be fenced off from adjoining land etc.

 

Another example would be the use of High-Visibility clothing - again its the fact that we have legislation called the Health and Safety At Work Act enforced by the UK courts which frames the regulations the ORR issue.

 

Most laws arent watertight, contain loopholes to allow latitude where laws alone are suffice to cover all circumstances.

its about the interpretation of the law, as very few are golden and absolute.

This is why the whole legal system exists, and why interpretation of those laws is allowed to be challenged, even if some think they shouldn't be challenged.

The failure is in the interpretation initially, as it shouldnt need to get to the point of challenge, the law usually allows a lot of latitude on some subjects as long as its ultimately followed.

its a British failing, going back to 1066 and French occupiers seeking control of their serfs.. the culture pervades… just because we have laws, doesnt mean automatically we are safer it just means we are more controlled, the magna carta gave back some rights to challenge, but those delegated to enforce can be known to over exert authority, when perhaps a more consultative approach could avoid misinterpretations.

wcrc lost the JV, but it doesnt feel like this battle is over.

On 30/03/2024 at 20:07, Steamport Southport said:

 

A few million quid in the bank?

 

If someone paid me $3million to act as a cat then "Meeow!" as that is how much Taylor Swift apparently got.

 

 

Seen how much Taylor Swift's cat is worth....

 

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20240207-taylor-swifts-cat-olivia-benson-is-allegedly-the-3rd-richest-pet-ever

 

 

 

Jason

And people complain that Larry the no10 cat costs the nation too much.

8 hours ago, vanbasher said:

Thank you so very much for this Chris, I'm just a little nervous about the whole soldering thing. I know you can buy the whole kit with an EM2 speaker from DC kits but I'll first have to get a soldering iron & some solder, then I'll need to get some instructions on how & where to wire it up. Thank you so very much though for your help. 

Have a wander to a local model railway exhibition, chances are someone will have a stand demonstrating soldering… thats how my little one learnt.

A road under a station makes most sense, as it connects both sides of an elevated railway line that doesnt interfere with the community it runs through that way.

Norwood Junction

Battersea Park

Queenstown road

Clapham High Street

Wandsworth Road

Peckham Rye

loughborough jn

Elephant and Castle

Carshalton

Wallington

Balham - famously had a bomb hit and going into the tube space taking a bus into the hole with it in ww2

5 hours ago, kintbury jon said:

Yes I was wondering about declassifying a first, perhaps one of the 64xx series.  I should probably just stick with my Hornby Mk 2E coaches but the Bachmann ones do look nicer. 

I havent tried it, but theres Hornby Loram mk2f TSOs for £20 … 

I could imagine it might be possible to put a £38 Bachmann TSO body on it with a bit of effort.. plus optional £20 for lights.

tbh, we just need more mk2fs TSOs made… Blue Grey seem to be in starvation too.

I have a lot of Bachmann mk2fs.. IC, SC, DRS, Blue and VT, plus  1 rake of Hornby 2Es and 2Ds in , which I retrofitted with leds stripped from cheap Hornby BSOs.. I do prefer the finish of Bachmanns, the Hornby 2E isnt bad but the 2Ds are … well i’m sure someones going to have a retool of them.

3 hours ago, Bucoops said:

 

 

The Americans can offer a very nice veranda view (and yes I was hanging onto the reins, just in case!) - not a million miles from where you were - Lancaster County PA.

 

Ive been there too, though my verandah was this…

on one of their scheduled commercial steam hauled freight turns..

Having traveled by rail on every continent, I am convinced the UK has the most stringent rail regulation in the world. I am not convinced however that such great cost makes it any safer than a good number of developed countries, quite often what fails is a once in a lifetime combination of events, or failure to follow the said regulations… but the administration of such regulation makes the legals easier afterwards. I put it down to British dna of control, rather than the more worldwide natural human behaviour of influence….

In the above photos, no one told us not to go on the track of a live 100mph railway line, or do a pts or wear an orange jacket.. we simply signed a waiver..which explainedvthe risks, required behaviour and consequences.

I signed another for this one.. then just did as I was advised.

and here.. I signed nothing…

and ended in the mountains of Southern Brazil.

People on the track, no HV clothing, and thunderboxes with open verandahs, opening windows at every seat, steps protected by a simple chain, again on the mainline.

Are we being over protective to the point we lack common sense that other nations have ? … Darwins natural selection applies both ways, the idiots can wipe themselves out, but over protected can too wipe themselves out if they don't have exposure to learn.

imo Some risk with influence is better than no risk under control… its called parenting.

I’m not saying wcrc shouldnt comply, but i am questioning why we appear more extremist, alarmist, confrontational and non negotiable than other countries in application ?