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Looking at my H today, I was wondering how hard it would be to get an SECR R 0-6-0T out of it.

 

My conclusion is, it doesn’t look that hard, if I removed then shortened the bunker (which is a separate piece), modified the tanks (which is also a separate piece), added some elements to the front wheel splashes, and cut the frame, where their is a mould Line, add some screws, where there are some screw indentations in the body, I could then swap for an 0-6-0 chassis..

 

Is it really that simple, and looking underneath it, it kinds of feels there’s a “cut along the dotted line” feel to doing it ?

 

An O1 doesn’t look hard either.

Hornby website says December, my guess would be on the shelves for Warley.

I do think it's a bit harsh to block someone for returning something that was damaged during shipping. It is, after all, the seller's responsibility to arrange for the the purchased item to be delivered safely to the buyer.

 

It's your decision, of course, but I don't think a buyer is being unreasonable in returning an item that isn't as described in the listing when it turns up on their doorstep, whether that's down to misrepresentation or a careless carrier.

The problem is how do you spot someone who “damaged” it vs “accidental” damage, and misrepresentation is subjective to the individual.. my “damaged” loco could be someone else’s gem.

 

The thing is, it’s not the buyers money paying for the vagaries of all these possibilities it’s mine. Its the same way a shop will do a better deal to a cash paying customer who comes back every week than a shady never before seen character wanting credit on a one time deal.

 

If someone sends it back, to me it’s a cost, there’s plenty more fish in the sea, it will sell to someone else. I know it’s harsh, but it’s my cost.

That said my return rate is extremely low, so I think my harshness applies equally well to my descriptions, I apply my standards both ways, again it can be at my cost, if I was slightly less honest I might squeeze that few extra quid.. but I would rather avoid the unpleasantness, wasted time and hassle that comes with handling a bad sale, some people don’t care, I’d rather sell what I don’t need and focus my energy on what to spend my new cash on.

If Hattons had originally sold out of R3555 to pre-orders and Hornby had also sold out where did the extra stock come from?

Cancellations.

 

Several times I’ve acquired a sold out model, due to a cancellation, sadly all to often that’s through age attrition of Railway modellers between order and delivery.

I cancelled some preorders myself this year owing to death of a fellow high volume collecting family member.

It’s higher than you think, one shop told me over 50 models of a limited edition were released owing to death or otherwise total loss of contact with a modeller between order and delivery.

 

Other times it’s prices rises, job losses or just change of interest.

 

But if your sold out in advance, the only time you discover what’s spare is when the credit card transactions are actually approved, declined and when the shop hits the phones and email to track people down.

 

If you remember the DJ models RMWeb yellow J94, a vast number of preorders were not honoured, in many cases duplicated and they ended up supplied out to the trade to clear.

My own feeling is that if this "undersupply" becomes more common then manufacturers (and in that I refer to the likes of Hornby and Bachmann) should follow the "American" way.

 

The likes of Athearn and Atlas announce a new model and at same time give a fixed date by which model shops have to place their orders which a year-or-so later the manufacturer fulfils. The model shops know that they will get what they ordered.

 

Its up to the model shops how many they order. They might order exactly the same number that their customers order or they could take a gamble and order more so that they will have some spare models.

 

For this system to work everybody has to come clean, which does not seem to be happening at the moment. The manufacturer has to make it clear that they will supply what the model shop has ordered and the customer should purchase the model when it arrives.

 

I know that many people only want to buy a model once they have seen and touched it. That's fine, but they must understand that they stand a chance of not getting the model they want. That's life in 2017!!

 

Keith

To do that you need also to confirm the price, and be confident on the quality.

Given the pounds performance that’s a little risky right now, the dollar is stable enough.

 

Under supply is not a new problem, and it’s a better problem to have than over supply, which has been a problem of several years.

It’s a sign that Hornby is doing what the retailers want, less stock = less dumping, rare models = less discounting.

 

Isn’t this what everyone’s been screaming for ?

 

But now retailers want one more than their neighbours shop so they get the one extra sale, guess what.. if Hornby did supply, the retailers would be swamped and back to discounting again to get rid.

 

Careful what you wish for, but if Hornby does sell out, and collectors prices rise, Hornby would be wiser to increase their RRP to match it, and rake in that extra margin rather than increase their supply and be stuck with it.

 

I think one of the issues previous CEOs have missed, is Hornby isn’t typical retail, there is no fashion, there is no waste disposal, models don’t end in the bin, and they hold a high residual value. The only way through it is new toolings, which is fashion in itself.

 

Maybe adopt the Brawa way of doing things... make a minimal amount at a very high price, depending how they sell make more and scale lower. The pkp pt31 was made in a run of 50, at £500 a piece, it hasn’t been repeated and they hold their value, I’ve only seen 2 or 3 change hands since, though there is one for sale in China, will set you back £900 though.

MANSELL (wooden centred) wheels have been prohibited from the national system for many years AFAIK, due to vehicles fitted with them not being detected by track circuits.

 

John

A couple of videos of the c class at Kings Cross, with stock, including a couple of departure runs up the platform.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nQx0gO0K5Q

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du_AO_u6BCQ

 

Must have a good budget to block a whole platform at KX for a day.

 

This was the ECS from East Grinstead to Kings Cross, via Bounds Green

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6YhU9e2QBw

Hmm,

 

So far the options offered by Locomotion and Rails have been pre and post nationalisation, have come off the back of a very similar run, and have usually shared a base livery. (Black).

This one broke that pattern, being a different livery, different tooling finish and can’t really take a pre-nationalisation number.

As it’s 250, my guess is Locomotion’s 250 will be very similar to this... maybe 46229 Black BRITISH RAILWAYS on the tender ?

 

29’s livery history only puts Black until 1950, when it went blue for 2 years before green. I hope they don’t elect for 1970’s Butlins red, complete with bird poo and kids heads popping down the chimney...

 

I wait with baited breath..and this one in my cart awaiting the announcement...

Meanwhile, back at Hattons, today’s best seller list is..

 

http://www.hattons.co.uk/stocklist/bestselling.aspx

 

A Railroad A1, P2, Hall, Pendolino and a 1F...

 

What no H !

Puzzled, head scratching ?

The  GPO  caught on to  that  one  quite  quickly,  I saw  a  couple  of  instances  in  the  Manchester  area, when  waiting to  use   a  call box  when  the  user  was  tapping  out  the  number on the  receiver  rest,  and in  a  very  short  time   a police  mini van  raced  up  and  apprehended  the  person.

 

Notes:  GPO = General Post  Office   the  then  name  for the  Telephone company, Mini Van  was  usually  the transport  for the police  for  a  while, in the  Manchester  suburbs!

I remember my mate calling me once to ask if I was in, I said yes, when he turned up his ear was black.

Kids had put boot polish on the ear piece.

Indeed, and any clarity on the model to be finished as E9621, or news on an N7/3?

Edit: It appears that OR76N7003 ie the model being released as E9621 has now changed to 69612 with early crest. Was this a round topped example?

That’s a bit more interesting.

Don’t see it on the website..

http://www.oxfordrail.com/76/OR76N7.htm

I wonder how much of this "electrics don't sell well" is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If us, "the converted", feel that the 87 might not sell quickly then some will be tempted to hold off and wait for the "bargain basement" prices, saving some cash on this particular model, but hurting our own chances of further models we might desire down the line.

 

I'm jumping in with both feet, no waiting.

Not sure it’ll make much difference,

If you step back and look at the market, since Brexit :

 

1. the number of new announcements has massively decreased across all manufacturers, Heljan has no new announcements in OO for over a year, Bachmann has reduced considerably their output. Hornby’s 2017 range is less than they planned. New players have plugged the gap, but there models are passing through the funnel thick and very fast... months not years in the case of Barclays and Ps.

 

2. Production bottlenecks have cleared, the 3-5 year waits have cleared in 1 year.. D600, 102xx, 1360s, gate stock, 121,71 and almost all Hornby’s 2017 range has arrived in the last 12 months, and 2016’s cleared out, Oxfords managed to introduce much in a very short time. Bachman is the exception here, it all feels very quiet there, I have to assume their focus is not on this island right now.

 

3. Costs have risen, Prices have risen, new entrants with low cost bases have challenged the margins of the established.

 

To me this is a warning sign, if China is turning over faster, because new designs are slowing down, then there’s over capacity in the production line. Weve never had it so good, and I think the view looks great right now because are seeing the top end of the bubble on our shelves in the last few weeks.. when it comes to new models Christmas has definitely come early on the high street.. I’ve had boxes come every day the last few weeks.

 

By year end there won’t be much pre2016 left to deliver, and in most cases all 2017’s stuff will be here too, even Hattons new announcements a few months back are only months from delivery.

 

The hints from the magazines suggest a rather muted or subdued Warley is coming this year and not to get expectations of the tens of new announcements we have become accustomed to... Chinese factories may go hungry or hunt in pastures a fresh in 2018 just as they are sitting down proud of how much they achieved and await the next set of comissions.

 

This reminds me of European airlines in 2005-9.

We had lots of cheap fares, the range and variety of flights was unseen of, it was cheaper to buy the airfare ticket than the taxi to the airport, people flew every weekend, indeed a New York weekender was possible for the price of today’s Hornby Duchess, BMI acquired Bmed and in the quest for more exotic destinations even promoted Aleppo as a tourist destination ! Supply of new aircraft for the market was plentiful. All subsidised by investors, shareholders and venture capitalists.

 

But Then fuel costs rose, the economy shrank, the pound fell.

In the next few months we lost or merged many names, not just budget airlines either..Bmi, maxjet, Caledonian included.

 

Since then the market has shrunk, some bigger name players have emerged and those prices are long gone.

Shareholders are getting dividends not subsidies and it’s healthy for the airlines, but the New York, even the European weekender is now dead, forget the exotic and off grid destinations..even Blackpool,airport didn’t survive.

The difference here, is if our hobby is about to burst, supply will increase not decline.. if people call quits and say i’m not buying my 5-10 models this year, they end up dumping their collections on ebay, sell up to do something else. That will continue to hurt manufacturers for years to come, and in the past the way to break that has usually been terminal for the company, followed by drought then resurrection under a new name years later.

 

The OO gauge market maybe close to leaner more expensive times, but not before we see some fireworks and implosions.

Maybe too trivial, but modern nameplates are a steel or aluminium ?

Wouldn’t the letters and frame be more silver, less white in appearance ?

 

Otherwise I think this is great model.

Anyone remember the BT Card that allowed you to make phone calls from boxes and charge them to your home number?

I remember they never worked (white credit ca4d sized thingy with about 18 numbers on it before you could dial the number you wanted).

Telegrams were easier.

So 46229 from a Rails, i’m Debating this it looks really nice.

When Bachmann announced Madras (Jubilee) in this livery I was really non-plussed , but after release, in the flesh it it looks very nice, but I was still unsure...

I’m coming round to the idea, that whilst LNER green locos with BR numbers look pretty, LMS ones in Black with BR numbers are actually looking equally good..

 

Might wait to see if Locomotion pulls a different variation of Hamilton out of the hat in the next day then decide, we haven’t seen what R3594 is yet. If it follows the pattern below, then it’s a guess 6229 is coming..

R3595 Q1 C1,

R3596 5000,

R3597 46229,

R3598 33001

R3599 45000

 

If it’s 6229, it was streamlined before it was black (R3597), being destreamlined in December 1947, the only time it was LMS maroon destreamlined was at Butlins, otherwise it was Blue 50-52, Green 52-58 then Maroon in BR days.

Whilst not uncommon to see gaps in R numbers it’s noteworthy that there’s two gaps in R numbers around the H class too.

Are Hornby and the Bluebell Railway sharing a stand ?

 

I see Hornby at A18, and Bluebell at A018a ?

 

Bluebell packing something huge with them ?

I remember Charlie Petty a few years ago about his DC kits class 85 kit & he told me then that AC Electrics sold poorly.

The Bachmann released their 85 & we have been told a similar thing. This was a well-received model, unlike Heljan's 86.

What is so different about now?

 

Look at it from a manufacturer's point of view: What sold poorly in the past will be a gamble now unless there is something definite to indicate otherwise.

Producing a high quality 87 is a gamble for Hornby.

 

I am sure competitors are watching closely at how well the 87 sells in order to decide what models to produce themselves.

Agreed..

I think we already know the answer to the question as well.

 

The 87 should be benchmarked against Hornby’s other investments.. the Duchess and the SECR H, both of which are sold out before delivery.

 

The 87 is available to pre-order everywhere, including Hornby’s website. It is not obvious to see it sold out any where.

Unless Hornby are making more 87’s than Duchesses, one would have to assume Duchesses are outselling 87’s, long before reaching the shelves.

 

From an accountants perspective that’s a black and white obvious decision, if the Peckett wasn’t obvious enough.

 

As side of an 81, 86 or a brave man to risk an 89 there not much left in AC electrics.

But if they don’t sell it’s infinitely more risky to do an AC EMU or class 91, which is 3 or 4 times greater risk and cost due to the extra carriages unique to that ensemble. That Bachmanns 350’s are in the bargain bin, preceded not once but twice by differing Class 85 releases doesn’t help the cause either.

 

It would seem AC is a bit line neutral really.

It's been variously reported all over here. But in general, each production run or so wears the tooling out and they just produce new tooling as required which is way cheaper to do with that type of tooling.

I could understand that approach for niche items like all the diesel prototypes they made... DP2, Falcon, kestrel etc

But this would not sound like common sense for high sales expectation items like the 47, 86 etc.. ?

 

Are you saying Heljan made many duplicate tools for the 47 for each batch ? .. there must be tens of thousands of 47’s out there ?, if that were the case then why not modify the tooling to improve it ? I can see that they retired the 47 tooling as it wore out..so if the 47 tool wearing out is a benchmark.. then the 86 tooling I would have been thinking would be equally as good for the same or similar number of injections ? That it was retired at all suggest they used it to the max... which on balance looks a lot more than the 86, though less than Bachmann and Hornby on several other prototypes.

 

I can understand that different elements of a tooling can wear at different rates, and slides can affect the life of other parts.

 

I can see they made a new tool from the 33, but that was at special commission. Similarly the Facebook page suggests that the specially commissioned 14 and 28 tools are being reused.. so they too must be using original tools, otherwise why need permission ? I’m not convinced Heljan have made several duplicated toolings of a class 17 or 35 to cover several identical but different releases, that too me would seem expensive and excessively risky on a model who’s sales potential is probably uncharted, but seems to keep meeting the slow burn targets.

 

I would be interested to see more info on this to back this theory up, and that it applies to every Heljan tooling, every re release... Some niches ones yes, but routine bulk volume sales locomotives.. ?

 

Here’s what I read between hard and soft... soft is few hundred max, hard is 000k’s injections.

https://www.tth.com/whats-difference-soft-hard-tooling/

To make 4000 kestrels would require 40 duplicate sets of toolings.. sounds uneconomic to me.

It maybe they use a softer metal, but then if it’s good for 000’s of 47’s it would probably be good for 000’s of 86’s too ? Aluminium toolings are 20-30% cheaper than steel, but provide between 2k -10k parts, steel does up to 100k, so the savings in Aluminium don’t appear to be there for highly sellable models, if every batch needs a whole new tool, but much more so for one offs (like the diesel prototypes) it’s makes a lot of sense. I doubt there’s many locomotives selling over 10k models these days.

 

I think they just didn’t sell well, so they didn’t make any more, and focussed their spending and production resources on something with a better ROI. Which could mean they could chose to bring it back, that they haven’t made a deal on rereleasing the 76/77 (which hasn’t sold out either) also backs my theory up.. electrics just aren’t as desirable,sellable, repeatable as more lucrative models like 17/26/35 etc etc

Is there anywhere to read up on Heljan moulds ?

 

They’ve been turning out 17’s, 26’s, 35’s and 47’s for years and consistently sell, so the mould can’t be too soft.

The Danish Mx/My has been around for 20 years too. The 14 and 28 also look good for a second round.

 

I read the 47 mould wore out, but they must have managed to squeeze thousands out of it, given the variants available, many more than the 86.

 

It may just be that o/h electrics are slow to sell, so they concentrate on something else.

I’ve got a Mainline stanier rivetted tender(from a Royal Scot) if your thinking to do a repaint.

 

You will need to remove the buffer beam off either the Hornby tender chassis, or the Mainline body.

Does not work . . . returns 404 Not Found error.

 

John

Ive found 404..

 

http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/54987/32-641Z-Bachmann-Class-491-4-TC-Unit-number-404-BR-Blue-and-Grey

 

:-)

I think I may have jinxed myself, after running perfectly the evening I received my H I ran it yesterday to show my friend and it was engulfed in white smoke. It wasn't running fast and did not have any rolling stock attached which has given my quite a shock, she does run but seems to heat up rather quickly which can't be a good sign. Im just waiting to hear back from the retailer before I have a look inside 

Sounds like a steam pipe burst, or a cylinder popped did you drop the fire to avoid damaging the fire box ?

:-)

I'm a bit confused by the posts I've read so....  Does the Duchess of Atholl come with a pair of replacement flanged trailing bogie wheels?

Yes.

Try as I might, it doesn’t seem to matter how many wheels I buy, I never have enough, let alone leftovers.

Well that’s it then, I’m off round yours for a brew. No sugar thanks ;-)

Oh and wait till Wednesday for the web announcement :-)

Without sugar is fine.

If you said without milk i’d be concerned :-)

If Dave ever needs an Agony aunt he knows where to find 20 of them right here.

Who’s Dave anyway ? I thought that was a TV channel. :-)

 

It seems everyone knows this bloke Dave personally, i’ll best make him a cuppa and wait for him to come round my place as it’ll eventually be my turn for a natter with him. Reading the threads it’s all so pally informal one could be forgiven in thinking he can’t get models made for having a handshake walkabout royal family style. If he took all the advice on here I doubt any models would ever be made, poor bloke would end up walking like a chicken and end up being committed.

 

( off topic but I do wonder how did that blokes UK holiday go that was designed a by a committee of members on here over 6mth and 20 pages ???)

 

Until then can we get back to DJModels and give it’s owner (I know he’s called Dave) the respect he’s due for running his business his own way, successfully.

 

Anyway, as it’s ask Dave, what’s this rumour i’m hearing about some wagon or other ?