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Is this a roundabout way of suggesting Hornby announce an RB (so avoiding duplication with Bachmann's RMB and RU))? If so, I'm with you on that.

Not just that, my Colletts/Hawksworth/Maunsell/Stainers passengers are all starving hungry.

When they said cut backs at Hornby I didn’t think they mean go on a diet !

Still works for me ?

 

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/thecollector

 

The Brighton Belle one has gone.

The blog did say they have simplified the electrics, making them per coach, removed the through tight couplings with wiring, and replaced with simpler NEM couplings.

How true that is I guess we have to wait and see.

Judging how long ago the term was coined and how outdated the concept is now it has been consigned to a historical era, it must be done to differentiate the modernised steam area layouts (with multiple aspect signalling and sometimes electrification) from everything else with diesels on that some punters wouldn't normally bother looking at...

Why not just put the era, epoch or decade ?

 

I have issue that modern image covers a period of 50 years between 1968-2017... and quite a lot happened in that time, where as Steam covers pretty much 3 periods of approx 10 year lumps between 1930 and 1968... less than 40 years, with most layouts either covering only two periods... 1930’s or 1955-65.

 

Modern image tends to be :

 

62-72 - Green/blue and steam transition,

74-82 (TOPS blue era, lots of older diesels):

85-95 lots of colourful liveries,

95-2005 Ex BR stock in the privatisation era,

and post 2005..lots of new stuff.

 

Modern carries a lot of variation, much more than steam, and we are in a period now where not just 1st gen modern traction is history, but much 2nd generation too is away for scrap (56’s, 58’s, 87’s, 141’s, soon to be HST’s, Pacers ) and we’re approaching mass recycling for the 3rd generation (60’s, 373 Eurostar’s etc).

 

I did see a layout once, that ran to its timetable, unfortunately for me, next train wasn’t due for 20 minutes so I wandered off, only to return and found i’d Missed it by a minute.

The revamped, revamped club replaces the all new revamped club which replaces the relaunched club that replaced the original.

 

£40 or £80 membership fee with a promise that collectors club models will now only be available to collectors club members (it really says that !!).

 

*** Gone is the 10% Hornby website discount, which was the only benefit to me of being in it.*** will my preorders be honoured or should I just buy elsewhere ?)

 

It looks to have copied Bachmanns model, I wonder if the high price is a ruse to try and nibble the success that Bachmanns club is, if Bachmann see this and tempt an increase, and their club falls as a result, Hornby succeeded in bringing it down.

 

The last few years of this club have brought me very little, despite all the promises, relaunches etc, not sure i’m ready to double up on price and try again, given the only benefit I had has gone, unless that H class image is the Bluebells own H class and the club price reflects the high price of joining it, i’m not sure anything else in there does anything for me.

 

I’m cautiously approaching this one, and still have 6 months membership to run on the old revamped one, not having seen anything in that first 6 months of it.

 

Let’s see what Warley brings, but initial thoughts are I may return them my membership card (only they never actually gave me one in the first place).

Thanks this is interesting.

 

I’ve got two of these ordered, I kind of suspect the model, if all wheel drive, is probably going to be better than the prototype and out pull a Bachmann warship :-) wouldn’t that be a modelling first.. a model that’s too good.

I have been blocked from buying from a Sheffield seller's large Ebay store because I left bad feedback, the item was appallingly packed, loose in a large carton, badly damaged, without padding, etc, and I declined to leave good feedback after they suggested they give me a £10 discount on my next purchase in return. Pity, because I might have spent many hundreds of pounds with them. I give good feedback when a seller takes ordinary care and fair precautions, like bubble wrap or a good carton, or both, even if there IS damage.

 

I put it down to one employee or possibly a cynical culture. This was three years ago, and they may have changed. But I'm still 'blacked' by them, they refuse to accept a any bid from me.

 

It’s a tough one that.

I’ve experienced both sides, I always block anyone who returns an item to me, without hesitation if the return is no fault of my own (inc postal damage that wasn’t due to me), no exceptions.

It sounds harsh, but a return costs me postage two ways and I end up with an item often in worse condition than I sent it.

I do however offer a return without hesitation or question.. it’s not worth arguing it.

However I just don’t want the risk of a fussy customer trying it again. (I’ve kissed a few frogs to reach this decision and had a few horror stories with grubby customers to get to my hardline).

 

But conversely I have had two sellers block me, one for my questioning their refusal to combine postage, two locos, two auctions, both under £50 and within small parcel dimensions and weight, but wanted £8 each for p&p. The other cancelled the sale as they felt it was too cheap what they sold it to me for but left me waiting a week before refunding it, blocked me, relisted it for £30 more.

 

You could always ask someone else to buy it on their account, I think ebay allows anonymous guests to buy now too.. just log out and then try.

Thank a falling pound for that. Hornby buy in US $ and the pound has fallen over many months against the dollar - and most other currencies as well.

Some will blame Brexit, some will cite other reasons. It does not matter. All that matters is that our pockets are going to need to be a little deeper.

Or be more selective and / or be a patient opportunist.

 

Though passing a Railroad Scotsman is an easy choice, a hard working family won’t have much difficulty finding one on ebay it’ll probably have a better paint job too.

Given that there is a large prairie available, albeit a facelifted relic from the 1980s, any new one should be of lower priority than a Mogul or Manor, neither of which has been produced for a good few years now.

 

My guess is that it's about as likely as a Hornby Lord Nelson..............

 

John

Mogul, Manor, Grange and 51xx ... they all share the same wheels, cylinders (and tender where relevant).

It’s not a big jump (compared to starting from scratch) for Hornby to go to any of them from the Grange.

 

Thing is will repeats sell, if tender engines sell in a world rapidly approaching £200 for a DCC ready loco.

If a tank engine is £150 it’s psychologically easier, but then again.. would something else sell better ?

Bachmann do not make the old Mainline RB or any RB. They do make an RU which is a different type of carriage.

It’s a Mk1 catering vehicle.

If it helps get my point across, I could do the same with a BSK instead, same price, same history.

which is kind of what I was trying to imply.

The question for the manufacturer is which do I make most money on?

Opening the books is probably a good measure.

If researching prototypes reveals pages and pages of historical photographs in published material, it’s a good indication that both the photographers of the day, and the books desire to publish them is indication they were popular and remain sellable in book form.

It also helps for a good research material.

 

If there’s nothing out there in print or online... it’s obscure or uninteresting and probably a riskier sale.

As an example, Consider how many pictures you find of a Class 01 diesel shunter, then do the same for a class 02.

Which did djh choose way back when...

Maroon portholes due July/August.

But we are now in October.

 

I wonder what price, digging up this old post from 2014...

I pre-ordered five coaches from the well known Sheffield based retailer in March 2012 for £22.50. I received an email about them earlier today:

 

"These are due into stock within the next week but the reason for my email is to inform you about the price. As you may be aware Bachmann have recently increased their cost prices quite significantly, as your order is now outside our 12 month price guarantee the price will be £31.95 each."

.

Currently £54.95 rrp, that’s close to double the price in 5 years (original RRP was £28.60), and there are not here yet, so anything can change.

(Next birdcages are listed at £65).

 

Hobby is going to separate men from the boys soon.

Mainline produced a BR buffet restaurant car with a blue solebar and a brown chassis and bogies in 1981. I bought this model in 1981 for £4.95 at the Engine Shed in Worthing, before the shop moved to Ford.. The model was made in Hong Kong and is nearly up to present day standards. It shows how much model coach prices have risen to the present cost of £269.95 for a 4TC set which is effectively four MK1 coaches.006.JPG

10 years later is was about £15 from Replica (c1991)

20 years later it was about £20 from Bachmann (c2001)

30 years later it was about £25 from Bachmann (c2011)

Today, 36 years later it is £40.

 

"Nearly" being somewhat unquantifiable.

I don't consider that model to be in the same league at all though it was good for its day.

The 4TC is a little more than four Mk1 coaches. Those cost from around £25 - £40 apiece now depending on make and model. None is commissioned in limited numbers, has required special tooling, comes equipped with lighting, curtains, illuminated headcodes etc.

Four of Bachmann's standard Mk1 coaches might cost you £150 but you get a lot less for your money than with the 4TC.

Or £168 for 4 Hornby mk1’s.. and they are a brand new tooling with much less detail than Bachmanns Mk1 and the 4TC, no lights, less weight, noDCC and the pickups, bogies and coupling design of the 4TC aren’t taken into account either.

 

I’m not defending the 4TC, at £70 a coach it isn’t cheap, but a mass produced railroad Mk1 it is not...and the next release of Birdcages are now £65 each on Bachmanns website tonight.

So if I get right, between 63- withdrawal, they were pretty much Cornwall (Exeter-Penzance area), on express, sleepers ? - freight ?, presumably keeping them local keeps them reliable, and frees up other Warships for further afield.

 

I was initially thinking they would be good hill climbers over a Warship given the extra weight, but see it’s an A1A-A1A not a Co-Co so just fat and heavier than a 42 it’d presumably be worse with Some HP going to drag that extra weight, 117 vs 79 tons... it’s a whole mk1 heavier than a Warship, nearly 10 tons over a Western.

 

Did these need the 2 hours preheating like Maybachs .

 

Fascinating class, they were only a year earlier than the 42’s, so much of this must have been known already.

 

were they really Warship prototypes or was this a popular story..?, there’s not much in common with a 42 and not much more with a 43 ? And why 5, not 1 or 2 like all other prototypes ?, was it possible these were meant to rival or be an alternate to a Warship, which someone convinced a run of five, but may have considered to be more ?

 

D600 delivered Jan 1958

D800 delivered Aug 1958

Forget the drawing board, or the jigs and tools, D800 must be already in assembly in January 1958... so if D600 was an eval, it was already too late for D800 ? Or was it a prototype for NBLs class 43’s ?

 

D833 delivered Aug 1960 ? - but isn’t this just a 42 with MAN/Voith rather than Maybach.

 

 

Don’t suppose there’s a source for further reading on these ?

 

Of all the prototype diesels so far, these seem to be a rebel without a cause ?

 

Unlike the 53, it’s a Diesel electric vs a Hydraulic version of a Western, and DP2 as a competitor but these things... ?

In price sensitive times suburban passengers tanks must be a good choice, as there aren’t many of them and there are many prototypes to pick from.

A 41/51/61xx must be good (I did see a suggestion someone might be thinking of one elsewhere but think it’s more likely a red herring), but equally LMS Stanier and Fowler 2-6-2t’s, Tilbury tank, variations of the Fowler 2-6-4t and an 84xxx are all deserving and as yet never been modelled... the N7 is decades overdue but at last recognised and is coming, even if the most desirable livery has so far been held back.

What were the D600’s used along side for, and at what point did their role start to fade ? (I’m thinking 1963-67, after most Hymeks, Warships and Westerns were delivered).

 

We’re they rostered alongside Warships or Hymeks, I can’t imagine putting them on a Western duty resulted in much fun ?, even a Warship duty looks a little challenged ? Or were they used on steam replacement diagrams ?

As a class of 5 I can’t imagine they were replaced by anything, i’d Assume they were redundant from an early stage ?

There’s a couple of things that so far have put me off these..

 

1. Lights.. they really made Hornby’s mk1’s more interesting, no lights not as interesting.

2. Bachmann mk1’s are more detailed, and more established, I have at least 60.

3. Livery matching blue/grey was fairly standard, maroon was pretty good too..l but a mix of blue shades between Hornby and Bachmann puts me off

4. Shape, Hornby’s is a different shape to Bachmanns, not only would liveries not match but height/width profiles are different, whilst some say livery differences were common, the shape of a Mk1 was not.

5. The only way it worked for me was to buy a whole rake, but there’s no buffet... which means skipping in an odd shaped noncolour matching Bachmann or Replica one.. no lights either.

 

Against that lot, when the Hornby one was cheaper, then I started actively selling a green Bachmann rake, and one maroon rake, and bought a Hornby rake to suit.. as overall these coaches are nice.

However without lights, a buffet and a higher price than Bachmanns, rake doesn’t make sense, and a BSO / FO on their own isn’t a proposition, so instead of me buying 14 coaches (b/g and maroon rakes), instead I’ve still not decided whether to stick or twist on all of them.

1 It is necessary to recoup investment before forking out for a second batch

2 It is wise to wait and see if the first batch sells before ordering a second batch.

3 Booking production slots often has to be done years in advance. You'd need to book a second slot even before delivery of the first models if you wanted to avoid 'feast and famine'.

4 The manufacturer requires a minimum number in order to produce. Thus, for instance, you can have a run of, say, 500each in 10 different liveries to give you your 5,000 run. The expenditure to get 5,000 in one go is substantial. No one in his right mind orders 5,000 more until he's seen how well the first batch goes.

Usually the return of 'oldies' means that new tools have been made because the manufacturer thinks it's worthwhile. Some models may have been retooled more than once because, the tools are worn out, some tools may have been lost in transit, the manufacturer is unable to figure out which tools are intended for which model (this was true of Hornby with both Dapol and Lima tools that were acquired).

It's a mistake to think that old tooling makes production cheap. Old tooling is just that - it may not even be usable on modern machines. If it is usable, it may produce parts which require outdated assembly techniques and skills. (CJL)

 

agreed..

 

 

 

I fall back to my original point, it’s not “how many you make how often”, but “what you make for what price”, if you’ve misread the customers apetite it doesn’t matter, what you make or when.

 

I think theres several models out there now, of all manufacturers and GA and special editions, that were influenced by heart based decisions rather than the head with a perception that the public will pay whatever price is asked of them.

 

Not sure what will happen to them in the longer term, but I'd imagine there putting holes in pockets and constraints on plans, should the downturn come it may not be pleasant as when consumers are impacted that only lowers their spending power and discounting to clear has to be much more brutal, voluntary or by administration.

 

In short, every model has it's value, the savvy business gets the mix right at the start, the others find out to their cost later.

Of course the lower risk way is to get customers to pay in advance, though even that has risks.. for example the Cl 74 was priced 2 years ago, I don't know if the maths still stack up today.

 

Returning to the higher level view, Remember Hornby's Customer is the retailer...given Model Railway sales (£22mn) is 2/3rds via two channels (38%, via independent retailers, and 29% in Europe), this is quite vulnerable to Brexit and Economic winds, 19% would be assumed to be very profitable business, as this represents the direct sales channel to consumer from Hornby direct.

 

By comparison Scalectrix (£12mn) however is much more stable with 39% via more reliable National retail chains, and an even split  (of approx 10%) across each of Europe, UK Independents, US etc.

 

Just to repeat...

 

 

if you’ve misread the customers apetite it doesn’t matter, what you make or when.

 

If independent retailers cut back or defer (reduce their apetite for stocking models on shelves) lets say 30%* of orders due to the new 2year warranty policy, high prices, economic uncertainty etc (and as they are more likely to be financially sensitive businesses anyway) this poses a big risk to the business, We may find in 2018 the inventory figure increases once again...

 

* 30% may sound harsh, but if they only order 3 of each model, reducing it to 2... is 30%... if they only ordered 2 and cut to 1.. thats 50%.

Care to name that retailer so some of us can do some research?

Sure, 50007, with GW150 unweathered with black backed nameplates, and 50010 in Large Logo Blue, with blue roof, are in the background of these images... neither of them are the Lima ones, and Hornby hasn’t done either, Kernows is known for seeding it’s background images ahead of the surprise... they had 47701 and 47076 plus a GW150 class 47 hiding in the background of the 4TC a few weeks ago,47701 was since announced.

 

https://www.facebook.com/KernowModelRailCentre/photos/pcb.1775752442466295/1775752212466318/?type=3&theater

Hornby's requirement for special commissions was a minimum 1,000 pieces. As Editor of Model Rail (i.e. pre-2008) I tried several times to get Mk3 sleepers in FGW livery. They eventually appeared in Hornby's standard range. If they are now willing to do runs of just 250, that is substantially less than any other manufacturer. Or are they actually runs of 1,000 with four different running Nos, for instance, making an aggregate 1,000? (CJL)

It looks like they will do 250 but only as an add-on to an existing run..thus far.

 

We’ve had 250 extra 33001 Q1’s on the back of the latest Q1’s

Now 250 45000 Black fives’s off the back of 45116 which is the TTS release. (I wouldn’t confuse it to 45274 as this is both different body, tender and not TTS).

 

There’s two suspiciously limited edition looking class 50’s (007 In 1985 condition (unlike previous 90’s versions, and 010) appeared on another retailers Facebook page, sure time will reveal.

 

But if 250 is the magic number as an extension to a production run, I think this is to be applauded and supported, 2018 is a big year for an anniversary, and i’m Sure a few shops would be happy to do 250 of various different end of steam black fives, 8fs,4mt and 9f’s.. and Hornbys got the tooling for all of them. I doubt there will be as big an opportunity / market to do this in 2028.

 

But in general I think there is a lot of oppourtunity for an extra 250 for retailer specifics on the back of a general release run, so hope it’s not limited to just NRM models.

Hmm..

That just drive a coach and horses through my plan or a plain black end of steam black five...

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/126781-r-3453-stanier-back-5/?p=2876631

Agreed,

 

It’s interesting to compare Hornby to its piers (large and small), there is a definite prevalence in recent times that new toolings are “feast and famine” production.

 

in the last two years we’ve seen several liveries released at once of models like : USAs (Bachmann/mr) cobo/14/14xx (hattons), J94’s (DJ), Class 05’s (Heljan) followed by famine... no follow up for a period, whilst they are soaked up.

 

In Heljans case this is almost a modus operandi, with successful models like the 17, 35 subject also to repeat “several variant” batches, followed by a pause, but it should be noted there are several instances where the result was a swamp.. 47’s were in bargain bins in the past, as were 23’s, dpu’s and more recently green 26’s.

 

So feast or famine isn’t necessarily a panacea to “a few for forever” production runs either.

 

I fall back to my original point, it’s not “how many you make how often”, but “what you make for what price”, if you’ve misread the customers apetite it doesn’t matter, what you make or when.

 

We’ve been here before, Lima made everything every month, but as soon as prices rose, they reduced production and spent heavily on new tools instead in an arms race against the others..the 156, 59, 60,66,92 all didn’t leap off the shelves when prices were high, the 67 was the straw to break the camels back, but it was the cl 92 years early that started the downfall..the demand just wasn’t there at the price point it was placed, duplication by Hornby didn’t help either.., £50 for a 92 sounds like a bargain today, but a Jubilee was £45, and a 3 car cl 110 was £40 at the time. Interesting you couldn’t give away 26’s for £12 then ..no one wanted them then either. No matter what the price.

 

Certainly more feast and famine is production efficient, but not necessarily cheaper when it’s a contract job.

 

But unless the tooling is scrapped after use, you have to assume it needs maintaining, storage fees, insuring, archiving etc.. the cost of which increases with every tool, Hornby’s range of toolings must take a considerable amount of space, way more than anyone else...which eats $$$ and earns nothing and several times in the past has been rumoured to have seen some lost or damaged, but it would be easy to understand.

 

Whilst purely speculating, imagine what the cost and value would be if a Hornby was still hanging on to tools for a Triang, Airfix, Lima and new Hornby Class 31 set of tools for decades ?, but that some real oldies have come back in the past anything is possible.

I agree with many of your points.

The lack of rarity value certainly doesn’t help, In an industry that’s promoted to collectors.

 

The market is such now, than any operation with access to £150k can go to a website and ask a factory in China to make them a tooling, considering an average home is £225k this makes the pool of potential risk takers slightly larger than 20 years ago and as people are more willing to crowd fund, that risk further declines. Should the £ increase in strength, then this gene pool will only grow.

 

Maybe in an uncertain economy, they should size their business in a way that they are profitable without making locomotives at all, then produce in limited quantities a few releases a year ?

 

The problem with this (apart from the mass loss of jobs), is Hornby has a fortune invested in locomotive toolings.. without writing them off the only way to make a return from them is to keep using them... catch 22, especially when some are over priced relative to the markets interest to pay and one which is often becoming saturated..but one solution is to sell the toolings themselves.

Yes, exactly. Bachmann's costs increased and they realised that to survive they needed to price their models accordingly. They were pretty clear about this at the time.

For the airlines the costs obviously aren't Chinese labour but increasing fuel and handling charges. Against this backdrop Monarch did not increase prices. And even though they increased numbers, the corresponding drop in profitability killed them.

EDIT: I am inclined to agree with dibber25 that the low cost airline analogy is feeling a little strained though.

Either way, I'd argue that the complaints that modellers were being somehow "ripped off" when prices went up have been debunked.

Cheers

Ben A.

The only analogy I could think that could link Hornby with Monarch is relevance.

 

Both have been around for decades.

Both were associated to their respective markets.

In both cases the market changed.

In both cases they haven’t successfully adapted to that change.

Both became less relevant to their market, both have increased costs and influences

Hornby is still here for now, but it will need to find its relevance or reshape itself considerably Inorder to thrive.

 

Feel sorry for monarch, unfortunately their pilots can’t just turn to use Ryanair either, one uses Airbus, the other Boeing..

I don't think any analogy between cut prices airlines and model railways will work. Airlines essentially cut prices in order to eliminate a competitor. (Remember BA and Laker Airways?) All that would happen if Hornby sells product at less than it costs is that Hornby will have mounting losses. It wouldn't put Bachmann or anyone else out of business. There's an infinite choice of airlines, so you can choose what you spend. If you want a particular model then, except for a few duplications, you don't have a choice of manufacturer. I think it will be essential for manufacturers to keep recalibrating their prices while both the currency fluctuations and Chinese manufacturing costs are generally on the rise. (CJL)

Manufacturers can recalibrate their prices, but consumers recalibrate their spending too, which is a more difficult balance.

It might be better to recalibrate their product ranges and focus on offering products that can be afforded by the consumer, as adapting to change is the only way they will survive, ritually putting up the price is like putting your head in the sand and ignoring the problem.

 

I’m not saying cut back or sell cheap, i’m Saying if your consumer can only afford £100, then make something you can sell for £100.

 

There’s no point making something for £150, and finding it’s getting more expensive, selling less so increase it to £175... if you need justification look at the ebay madness thread it’s full of such examples.

Similarly if things aren’t selling at such lofty levels, the bargains thread also proves the point... 2 years on a B1/K1/B17 still is available discounted for £80, yet Hornby still make more at £140.. sorry it’s gone up to £160now.

http://www.hattons.co.uk/35823/Hornby_R3003_Class_B17_4_6_0_61669_Barnsley_in_BR_Green_with_late_crest/StockDetail.aspx

 

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/br-4-6-0-leicester-city-61665-b17-class-early-br.html

 

But if you want an example of something that sells for £100.. think j94, peckett, 14xx, P, Barclay... no complaints, no discounts and sales look good. Right now there’s a craving for industrials... leave the 4-6-x’s for a better economic climate.

 

There is a market and spenders want to spend, but not more than they have in their pocket, unfortunately whilst costs are up, the consumer wallet hasn’t, so the product size needs to come down... think Toblerone... same quality, same price, same package, just less of it.

http://fortune.com/2016/11/08/mondelez-cuts-the-size-of-toblerone-u-k-panics/

 

I’ve got a full house of B1/K1/B17’s as suspect after 2 years discounting most other people do, if they can’t get rid at £80, why bother making more, and increasing the price, let alone decide to duplicate the B17 tooling by introducing a railroad competitor to itself..isn’t that just injecting more shareholders money into the same moulding machine that injected the last Cash injection ?

Hi,

 

Can anybody tell me if I'm wasting my time looking for a new ( in a shop ) 00 Heljan Class 35 in two tone green with small yellow ends? I'm thinking They are long gone?

 

Did they ever come in 21 Pin, or just 8?

 

Thanks.

In stock at Kernow’s,,.

 

http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/55160/3523-Heljan-Class-35-Hymek-Diesel-Locomotive-number-D7054

 

Olivia’s, if your feeling flush,..

http://www.oliviastrains.com/trains/mt/Heljan/Heljan-class-35-hymeks/Heljan-3518-class-35-d7062-in-br-green-livery-with-small-yellow-panels-white-window-surrounds/