adb968008

So for the retailer..

 

Buy less, check it thoroughly on delivery, if there's a fault send it back.

After month 10.. dump it off your shelves pdq as month 13 it's second hand.

 

I wonder what happens if mazak rot sets in on month 25?

 

Interesting...

 

So if I buy something that has been on the shelf for over 24 months, Hornby won't honour the warranty? How am I supposed to know when the shop bought a particular item of stock?

 

Of course the shop still has responsibilities if they sell something that isn't "of merchantable quality" no matter how long it's been on the shelf, but this suggests that after 24 months they're on their own.

My interpretation is it's 12 months from sale by Hornby to the shop, and 12 months from that date to the consumer... so 1st October 2017 models have to be sold as new with warranty by 30th September 2018, to give a customer warranty to 29th September 2019.

 

So if a model supplied on Oct 1st 2017 is still on the shelf on Oct 1st 2018... it's no longer "new" with warranty... it's as good as second hand without warranty.

 

Retailers need to become high turnover carpet baggers, or take on liability or just buy to what they can sell in a year.

Of course if stock at Hornby doesn't sell out, order more a few weeks before the 12mth is up, and return the old ones as faulty...that resets your clock.

 

Looking at several websites, there's Hornby guff out there that's years old still available as new. If I were still retailing new stock, I'd be thinking long and hard about stocking anything other than easy sell bargains or new toolings.. all that other stuff maybe take stock to order.

 

Whilst I see Hornby's policy is aimed at reducing risk of returns of second hand or old stock from years ago, I suspect it could harm new sales if retailers decided to be more cautious about ordering ever increasingly higher priced run of the mill repeat stock to avoid being left with the risk if still having it one year on.

 

The point they might be missing is why does a retailer still have new stock, several years after release still stuck on their shelves unsold in the first place ?

Despite what was said above, the Railroad Crosti 9F is new tooling (as of 2014), and so its price reflects that.  I also wonder if it may have been started under design clever, as it has features that to me don't make sense for a Railroad model, but at the same time compromises that don't fit the main range.

 

Agreed, it's on a whole new chassis too, that's more detailed than the Railroad 9f, now if they put it with the super detailed clan/Britannia tender...

I've got admit being a little perplexed at an aging £155 M7, next to the brand new £110 SECR H in the same year.

So!

Now that there have been several of these locos running on folks layouts, I wonder how pleased or not, people are with these models?

I note adb968008's comments above, anything else?

Cheers,

John.

Nine months in and I'm still happy with mine, no issues at all.

1366 class is all ok too.

More import is all the manufacturers have missed 60 years since the introduction of the first mainline diesel under the modernisation plan.......but that is only modern image so that don't matter.

D8000 has been

1. done (Dublo, 1st anniversary),

2. done (wrenn),

3. done (30th anniversary Lima ltd Ed),

4. done ( 50th NRM Bachmann)

5. and still being done (NRM Bachmann gloss) again though.

 

And each time it's no different, maybe 20050 in Blue for a change ?, I remember seeing it in Doncaster Works just after it had been preserved, but before any work was done on it and recall being confused as to why a loco in working condition, for a fleet not being withdrawn was being preserved.. though I was also puzzled at 50011 withdrawn at Crewe a few years later, especially when considering 50041 being repaired at Doncaster just 2 years earlier, strange days and decisions back then, no one expect 50041 to come out alive, no one expect 50011 to go in alive).

Also 37673 & 86502 (1 side only), but neither of these are in Hornby's premium range.

I did not know this evolved into Dutch. I just assumed that all RF locos were in another one of the sectors.

I forgot the 86/5's I remember Hornby released it, just after BR renumbered it 86602 but there were others to.. (503/4 come to mind). Later they went to distribution, so it'd suggest it was a mistake, as many ran unbranded for a while too.

 

I didn't know about 673 either, but I just turned up 37104 also. (I seem to have memory of an 08 too).

 

I'm not sure why General was selected for 149, I understood it's trials was for China clay,which seems to me the domain of Aggregates, yet always seem to have Distribution 37's on it. I can only guess it's a "we haven't done a loco in General yet" or "no sector wants to own 149" experiment, that failed anyway, 8/15/19's liveries were more for celebrity appeal. I did see 50's on engineers stuff towards the end (I have a picture of 50041 in Manchester Piccadilly on a civil engineers train above my layout), and have pictures of 50008/15 in Longsight depot one evening (got to cab them too), but I recall this being massively unusual, hence why I was where butter wouldn't normally get.

 

Either way, there wasn't many of them, I suspect General was too vague, and as a Railfreight was a profit centre, engineering stuff was a cost they wouldn't want (there was not yet a "railtrack" customer).

That's 4 sectors, out of a possible 5... How many variations are you expecting?

 

Six.

 

Aggregates (Construction)

Coal

Petroleum

Distribution

Metals

General

 

Your choice for general is limited (50149) but it was none the less one of the rounded design groups original proposed sector liveries, but wasn't adopted and (via initial drab grey), turned into Dutch livery instead, presumably because the tasty new livery was meant to be future looking and including your old knackers used for engineering stuff was counter to this plan, and separate to railfreights business.

 

RfD later evolved to represent European distribution, with the blue roof in addition.

 

However the 31 isn't what comes to most people's minds, when it comes to Railfreight, they were starting to be a little long in the tooth at this point, think of a 31, redstripe railfreight & Dutch wore much better.

 

33/37/47/56/58/60 were the champions of rail freight sectorisation liveries.

Another solution would be to stop using Mazak.  I cannot imagine that the material cost of the chassis block is a major part of the overall cost of the model, surely that is assembly of a number of disparate parts, and all that is required of the chassis block material is that it is reasonably rigid and heavy, and rustproof (or at least rust resistant).  Now, I am neither a qualified metallurgist nor do I have any sort of knowledge of production engineering, but would not a different material, perhaps whitemetal, be just as good or better?  What other applications are there for Mazak besides model railway chassis and what makes it so special in that role?

 

It is obviously highly satisfactory in the majority of cases, but needs very strict QC at the source, the small foundries and backroom workshops where it is mixed and poured into the moulds, and this cannot easily be provided under the present circumstances, so another material might be worth considering.

 

I'm lucky, and have not lost any models to this for many years, touch wood!

 

In the older days the chassis used to contain lead, but that probably explains why Railway modellers are more extreme and of odd temperament with later age.

 

maybe use Brass.. but it aint cheap.

I'm not sure there's that much they can offer ?

 

08, Choice of 31, Railroad 37, Railroad 47, 50149, 56, Railroad 58, 60, 87, Railroad 90 ?

 

Of that lot, 08s were mundane, 31's weren't the most awe inspiring ambassadors of this livery and even then not many variations (Distribution/Coal/Petroleum/Construction), 50149 is already done, class 60's didn't exist in 1987, 90's were brand new and Intercity.

 

Doing Railroad 37/47's is probably risky given how extensively this period was covered by Lima loco's that are still swilling about in the 2nd hand model railway ocean, not to mention the dozens of newer offerings by Bachmann, Heljan and ViTrains out there.

 

The locos at the October 1987 unveiling at Ripple Lane, and the models made in the same liveries have all been done and the toolings used in 1987 are still the same in 2017 for the 37/47/58 only the 08 and 56 are newer:

 

08834 Distribution - Bachmann

37673 Distribution - Bachmann

37892 Petroleum -  Lima

47079 Metals - Lima

56001 Construction - Dapol

58050 Coal - Hornby

 

The best they could offer is a mix of Railroad/Main range models which would be confusing and difficult to sell at best, massively criticised at worst.

Maybe another option would be the railfreight odd ball collection : 47901 RfA,  50149 RfGeneral, 58050 RfCoal, 87101 RfD

 

To me, the only way I could see this work, is for a retailer to have commissioned a collection of cross manufacturer models into a single set, but again I think this would be hard concept to sell.

updated list of affected models here (101 thus far)

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/123769-zinc-pest-mazak-rot-the-affected-models-list/?p=2865037

 

Personal thoughts on storage... styrene is an insulator, cellphone traps heat. Having a model in a box that sweats your loco in summer, and releases moisture in winter doesn't sound like an optimum solution. If it's stored in a variable temperature location, I'd imagine out side this style of packaging would make more sense. Bubble wrap i'd avoid to.

But ultimately.. if the alloy is tainted..all your doing is delaying the pain not preventing it.

Talking of whistles, the finest ever heard in the UK was that fitted to A4 'Dominion of New Zealand' being an NZR standard chime whistle not dissimilar to some, but by no means all, US steam whistles.

 

Dedicated to thread-drift am I!

 

I firmly believe that all model sound fails when it comes to the rising and falling of trains approaching and receding, and there would be no better demonstration of failure to evoke something real than the attempt to recreate a complex echoing cold night time sound of a chime whistle.

 

I wouldn't mind if those dedicated to sound would keep it to themselves, but you can't buy some US models without it, and the attendant hype and price. grrrr.

 

Having vented, I will go back to my picture of  Bachmann A1....      

 

cheers

 

p.s. here are contenders for a best Peppercorn model by Bachmann..

 

A1 60147 'Great Eastern'.

 

60147_A1_BR_LNER_portrait_1abc_r1200.jpg

 

A2 60528 'Tudor Minstrel'

 

BR_A2_Parcels_at_Speed_60528_3abc_crop2_r1200.jpg

 

both edited

I just listened to the Hannaford recordings of DoNZ and DoC, the great thing of YouTube allows us youngsters who never saw them in steam, to imagine, as the sounds of the whistles live on, on preserved locomotives overseas... they do sound identical.

 

If someone wanted to do DCC sound of an A4 with these whistles, it's very possible.

But on the opposite hand the Reading branch of Hobbycraft drastically reduced the range of Hornby it had on offer several years ago  (which is a shame as they were very clever at reducing some prices to a ludicrously low level on lines that didn't sell)

I'm speculating, but perhaps the second part of your statement,could explain the actions for the first half of your statement.

Need more catering vehicles....

 

Though I wouldn't say no to a Tavern car, even if from the outside there's not much you can see of the inside.

 

Bulleids would be nice, if they included lights, lights through the tiny tavern car window would be a little quaint too.

Another wild card, maybe easier, is to use a lion off D1000 Western Enterprise, this looks smaller than the lion on the side of a OO gauge class 85, so also could be a substitute for a HO scale one ?

They are Class 83's. Charlie

Not quite, PKP is 3000v DC, not 25kv AC.

 

The lion on the side of EP07-1059 was made in U.K. I think 2006 and applied as a special paint job in 2007.

The transfers I referred to would be in HO scale for the Piko or Schliesenmodelle EU07, for Polish modellers wanting to paint it.

(I don't think theres much demand in Poland for a class 81 or 83 in OO or HO :-) the BR lion on wheel etches are those painting this EP07 in HO but I'd wager they will be better sized than OO scale ones on a HO class 81.

 

I just checked their site and they are off stock anyway, will need to email and ask.

 

I'm thinking about using a Heljan class 17 chassis for mine, it's a close fit (and its slim), plus there's loads of dead ones out there from Gear-gate days.

I've managed to buy a Sommerfeldt single arm pantograph for mine to repalce the stock one.

With reference to the early blue or electric blue liveries, does anyone have any good close up pictures of the cast iron emblem and numbers? I'd like to etch some to fit the HO scale model.

Wildcard but maybe Try kalkomanie.com (you may need to use chrome/translate to send them an email, they used to have them listed).

 

They do HO transfers for EP07-1051 (this is pkp EU07 painted in BR blue livery which carries the cycling lion on its sides).

There is a whole page here, including lion close ups.

http://www.flickriver.com/photos/tags/ep071051/interesting/

Hattons have posted the order in which P class are selling the most.

Top 3 spots are occupied by Bluebell engines, SECR 178 in first place then 323 in Bluebell blue and 31027 in BR.

Next it is an SR green engine 325, then BR 31323 (bluebell loco), and again SR 1555.

In 7th SECR grey, a surprise really. Followed by Primrose in Bluebell early 1960s special livery, followed by 1558 in sunshine lettering (which I would thought would be before SECR grey and Primrose).

In tenth place is SECR 753, clearly the KESR preserved loco is less popular than the Bluebells preserved members. I would have expected SECR 178 and SECR 753 to be similar in sales and ranking.

The last two places are occupied by the 2 industrial P class (also both preserved). I would probably have brought these if the other colours of the same locos had not existed. Bowaters was not far from where I lived...

Relative to popularity of the Bluebell railway I suspect, it has a cult following.

The KESR somewhat lives in Bluebells shadow.

 

A Bluebell railway modeller is quite spoilt for choice when it comes to modelling their fleet, and of course those pre-grouping liveries were around in the 1960's here too.

 

If you already own 55, 473, 488, 592, 928, 21c123, 9017, 30064, 73082, 75027 and the ability to order a H, Atlantic, B4 then adding 3X Ps isn't a big stretch at this point, especially as most of their passenger stock is available too.

 

I'd imagine the O1, Q and std2, who knows maybe even Captain Baxter too now industrials are in vogue, and will follow at some point then you can model the whole fleet with a couple of renumbers.

 

Regarding the O1 I recently stumbled across images of this in a location associated to a manufacturer in China, (I'm being vague as it's tied directly to a traceable individual in China and his employer, who may or may not have put files online by innocent mistake ), so It's a natural guess it's being considered, (and no it wasn't a C I saw), indeed I'm surprised a Q hasn't yet appeared either.

I don't care where it comes from as long as quality, price and delivery time meet my requirements.

..... and if you're going down that track, you're far from being in the vanguard; virtual railway simulators are getting to be 'old hat' nowadays.

 

Hah, trust me, I'm not going anywhere near model railways, this hobby would never pay my salary, mortgage etc and I have all respect those that do make a career from it.

However I do know it's only time before a commercial venture appears, it already has on real world railway applications.

My efforts are on the technologies that make it a possibility, to make something one needs to understand how it will be used, by thinking.

 

Anyway we're way off topic at this point, so let's bring it to close.

Are there really enough hours in the day for ebay to actually go to all that trouble with the millions of sellers out there? Beyond a few random checks or investigations of suspicious transactions I suspect this is simply a tightening of the wording of their policy rather than a 'we're coming to get you' warning.

They only need one or two admins based in the Philippines or such like, to scan millions of auctions worldwide.

Everything is software algorithms, that flag up inconsistencies.

 

They Read it, then either bin it or escalate it to level 2, 3 etc.

The earlier levels may just be automated warnings, emails, or even personalised responses higher up the chain it always ends in legal at the top.

 

I'm sure they will have dedicated UK investigative resources, even if they are contractors, there business model is at risk if they don't do some level of enforcement.

 

I know one company that scans every card scan, email, text message, phone photo, phone record, USB, cd,DVD, wifi connection, Bluetooth and rj45 connection you name it, for every employee in the company daily, over 100k employees and cross references this against various parameters for patterns (date, subject key words, expense reports, travel records etc).

 

US corps can be real paranoid.

Here is what got Uber banned in London...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyball

They combined Uber, with credit cards, Banks, Facebook, Google and even the local mobile phone shop all via APIs to do this in milliseconds.

 

In 2017 it's naive to think that opening just a handful of websites cannot and will not be mined, analysed and shared by hundreds of companies worldwide all accessing, compiling and sharing data about you in all manner of complex ways to learn about every aspect of your life, mostly for financial gain.

 

A really simple example.. go online search "boilers" and see how unrelated many websites you visit suddenly start sharing ads about boilers, plumbers, gas heating etc, not just on your laptop, but it'll start showing on your phone and iPad tooo.. that'll be Google Adsense at work, linking all your ip's mac, addresses, devices to you as a user and showing you content as you move around, and collecting more detail on each site you visit.

 

Certainly don't type in Escort and Model without Ford and OO gauge, your misses might start seeing things she might not want to expect ! They might also start showing up on your phone if your walking down a certain street !

 

EBay's own forums are filling with people caught by this, even before this policy change.

https://community.ebay.co.uk/t5/Seller-Central/Ebay-quot-warning-quot-message-re-selling-outside-ebay/td-p/5316221

eBay has become very much Seller Beware rather than Buyer Beware due to their methods of dealing with returns (you cannot effectively deny returns as eBay will *force* a return and refund the buyer, and then chase you for the money and threaten to negatively affect your credit scoring etc (a friend has had this with a camera he sold recently).

Yes but ebay is saying they will pursue the buyer also... (Again I can't believe ebay can legally enforce restraint of a consumers choice of platform to do business).

 

I understand what they are trying to do.. stop people cutting ebay out of a deal procured using their site, but the wording is open to such interpretation that it goes go way beyond that into restricting trade of items not sold (but merely just listed) on their site that could be sold offline to people who use ebay.

 

heres an example..

I find a class 47 on ebay that is sold by a well know model retailer, who's username is easily recognised.

I goto that retailers website and buy it from the retailer directly.

The retailer takes the item offline as they sold it.

 

Ebay can claim fees from the retailer for my circumventing ebay's Website to conclude a sale, as I used ebay to find the item.

They can also go after me for their costs in proving that in my search history, I looked for that item on ebay, but bought it direct, as the listing allowed me to identify the customer and I was able to identify them. Ebay lost out because I found a cheaper route to the same item from the same ebay seller using eBay's website.

 

(They would probably need to establish a pattern from my shopping habits.. they could have a computer program analyse my ebay browsing habits, and combine that with other website tracking tools, or even collaboration on browsing history from my ISP for example, and if I make a habit of looking for an item on ebay, but then not buying it but visiting another site, they could start to become suspicious for example). All this can be fully automated today and such software is readily available and widely used already.

 

All it does is track me and every other joe, and flags up anomaly and automatically dish out warnings to the lowest level offenders then send everything else to low level guys out in the 3rd world to sift through this stuff, deal with, and flag up the ones of interest for management attention and so on.

 

heres another example..

I get the 47 in the mail.

In the box is an invoice for the 47, but also lists Retailer's website on the invoice.

Retailer can be chased by ebay for using eBay's customers who bought goods on ebay to advance the business away from their site.

 

Ebay could do this by ghost buying the item themselves, presumably on the back of suspicions, i.e. the seller constantly removing items from sale, or a report by a user.

 

or another scenario..

 

I have a 47 on ebay.

I sell it to john doe in the shop, who says he saw it online and decided to come look at your shop.

I remove the item from ebay

 

Turns out JohnDoe works for ebay undercover team, or maybe Jon doe just has a grudge against you.

ebay claims I have sold the item to JohnDoe as a result of JohnDoe finding the item on ebay and visiting the shop to buy it, claims the final valuation fee, and all the enforcement fees associated with it. They will could, if it's worthwhile to them, also try to claim everything you've ever taken offline of ebay without a sale too is as a result of this, and you'll need to prove otherwise..

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/rfe-spam-non-ebay-sale.html

 

Ebay have made some changes to their terms relating to selling and communication of items outside of ebay.

 

Sellers are also liable for final value fees if they offer or reference their contact information, or ask for a buyer’s contact information, in the context of buying or selling outside of eBay, even if the item does not sell.

I'm not sure how enforceable this is, and I suspect a challenge for anti-competition laws may result from this, but as of today ebay are saying by agreeing to using their site for sales:

 

 

1. Do not put promotional material in the packaging when you send the item..

 

by using ebay your agreeing that you will not promote the sale of any item not listed on ebay to any customer who buys from you on ebay.

In your listing page or in communications with another eBay member you can't refer to or promote your personal website (including links to home page web addresses that promote websites outside of eBay), sales outside of eBay, or other businesses.

2. By using ebay you need to be very careful not to sell any item listed on ebay, to any person off ebay, whom may be a customer of ebay. (In other words if you accidentally sell an item at a show, to someone who has an ebay account, and then delist the sale from ebay, you may find yourself in a policy violation.

(I personally don't see how this is enforceable) but this is a big vulnerability to sellers, if you have a buyer at a show, whom may have seen that item online, and sell the item, delist it, they could go to ebay and report you !

 

To me this sounds like restraint of trade, as the only way you can be certain is to exclusively list the item on ebay and nowhere else... bit tricky if you have more than 1 of the item.

Canceling a listing to sell to a buyer who found the item on eBay

Finally it goes on about not publishing any contact information on your listings (Now here I see an issue as most business sellers contact information is visible in their listings !!!)

 

They are trying to protect their IP (customer base) and their revenue (by people cancelling a sale and selling it offline), but they are saying they will charge introduction fees, and persue costs for for enforcement (i.e. They are going to have revenue protection staff trying to catch people out).

 

 

How draconian is it...

 

I buy from all the shops on ebay, I also know the shops websites. If I find an item I want on ebay but it's cheaper in the shop..hey ho ebay policy violation...introduction fees, enforcement fees etc etc...

 

As it stands any trader needs to weigh up the risk of selling on ebay, versus the value of their business of ebay, but by having both your in conflict with ebay.

 

Ebay defines anything sold outside of ebay as:

HideHow to tell if you're buying or selling on eBay

The best way to tell if you're actually transacting on eBay is:

Open a new browser and type www.ebay.com.

Click My eBay at the top of the page and sign in.

Check to see that the listing you've bid on, bought, or sold appears in the Purchase History or Sell sections.

If your transaction doesn't show up in My eBay, then you didn't buy or sell the item on eBay.

For a seller, who sells offline

 

In draconian, in short, your contract to sell an item is pretty much a life time commitment to sell that item exclusively on ebay and nowhere else, unless you can 100% prove anything you sell outside, that is also offered for sale on ebay, is to a person who does not use ebay and is willing to sign to that effect.

 

For a buyer,

 

Well anything that at all, listing, email, parcel contents with anything more than a return address and an invoice should be reported... it would seem even email addresses are banned by ebay as otherwise your exposed to enforcement fees etc by entrapment.

 

As I said, I can't see they will get away with this, but I don't want to be the guinea pig.

Crowne plaza booked, just got tickets for two days this year.

One day for scrummage, and a second for appreciation.

 

Last year one day wasn't enough.

 

Just noticed in the list of Traders, this years Hornby's got two stalls, their stand and a "sales".. are they, like Bachmann intending to have an outlet as well as their exhibitor stand ?

For a moment I thought I saw Peters spares, which would have sent me into overdrive, but then I saw it said books.

and then there was probably those that thought, Ooo, I'll have a few of those and make a pretty penny dribbling them out every now and then on Ebay looking at the silly prices some were fetching at shows and auction.

 

Hopefully Hornby announcing further runs and Hattons saying their planned AB will be here in January with plenty to go around will have firmly pi$$ed on the speculators chips.

 

Serves the bassa's right!

 

P

Unfortunately it doesn't work like that.

 

If it looks to be a goose, but not a golden egg, the chicks may find themselves left in the nest.

 

In other words... speculators may not accumulate, and the shops supplying them end up with a whole load of cancelled preorders stuck on their shelves... and what happens when shops end up stuck with tons of unsold stock ? Dumped.

 

 

I don't think it will be that bad, I suspect theirs enough buyers for sellers out there and will sell well and fast but not inflated. Same goes for the other two works liveried ones. There's room in the market for both the AB and the Peckett, and probably one or two more before it hits saturation.

 

Don't forget whilst the AB will sell in droves, Hattons isn't a network of retailers /swapmeet traders / ebay dealers/ model railway shop retailer nationwide... there's lots of people the Peckett will reach that the AB won't.

I must have thrown away gallons over the years, and it's not especially environmentally friendly stuff, either. The problem is stuff you only need in tiny quantities; Humbrol copper or brass, essential for us GW types, probably less than a dozen brush fulls a year. But, of course, when you're in the shop and know fully well that you've only taken a few dips into the tin, you don't buy a new one. So, when you come to do the safety valve cover on your latest pannier, you open the tin and everything is in a solid lump; not only a terrible waste but necessitating a journey to your friendly local modelling supplier of comestibles for a new one.

 

Repeat ad infinitum...

I use paint lining pens off ebay for metallic colours (silver, gold, copper etc) and also some primary colours that I use in small amounts for mixing etc.

Some are 4 years old and still good as new, cost £1 each or so on the slow boat from china.

 

In many cases, with 1mm or less tips, I don't need a brush either.