palmsticks

On 05/08/2023 at 10:19, TomScrut said:

 

No, which is why I wonder as to whether it's a good idea Hornby making them before the loco is ready.

I am told that the quickest way to get an accurate version of 2007 is to pay these people:

https://www.a1steam.com/p2donation#/

😉

Question: Hornby R3984 LNER P2 'Earl Marischal' - with or without (additional) smoke deflectors

Answer: Without (As already reported elsewhere)

Case closed. 

I learnt today from my wife that the collective name for a group of P2s is "toomeni"...

Anyway, here are some pictures of monterous green engines with some big green engines to act as a comparison for LNER livery applications.  My phone camera is not the best, so apologies for the quality of the pictures (obviously the equipment at fault and def not the operator).  Usual caveate applies re. colour: inside under LED lighting, on digital sensor, displayed with *insert screen type here* screen. 

Some observations:-

• 2002 Earl Marishal = as built condition (as already reported) (--> Suppose I can definatively answer my own question in the other thread!)
• 2002 accessory bag does include guard irons, but 2003 and 2005 do not.
• 2002 cab roof correctly has no ventilators behind and above the driver and fireman.  Both 2003 and 2005 do. <--Anybody know when this mod was applied? When built, they did also did not have them.  2006 built from new with these ventilators based on experience with the others (so says Yeadons).
• They are heavy
• 2003 and 2005 -Join visible where the Bugatti smokebox component mates to the boiler section (not visible on 2002) as reported by @AdamOrmorod but not as noticeable (to me) and not a deal breaker. 2005 does seem to suffer more.
• Slight witness of tool parting lines at 10 o'clock & 2 o'clock on 2002.
• Accessory name plates appear to be brass and not plastic (as reported by @Steam here!) after scratching the paint away on the back of the fret holding them and seeing a shiny brass colour.  Well, this is the case with 2002.  Didn't check the others.
• The close coupling is Ree Modeles good.
• Line lining on the front of the cab is very nice and shows up earlier examples of black borders being too large
• Pleased with them.

5 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I also just noticed Deltics bogie frame, is that a piece of bull head rail (upside down) running across the front of the bogie at the very bottom ?

 

was that a kind of primitive wheel guard ?

33 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Looks flat-bottomed to me!

 

Perhaps intended to ensure that damage to the track and loco was minimised in the event of a derailment?

 

CJI.

9 minutes ago, RedgateModels said:

A few close ups I took years ago at Shildon ...

 

 

Made for the railway, made out of railway!

1 hour ago, benbrown said:

Hi all just had a email from Hornby to update payment details as lord president has arrived at there warehouse for shipping 

 

Hour later same email for earl marischal 

Ben

Oooooh!!!!  Is it too early to get this excited yet?

On 01/08/2023 at 09:20, Johan DC said:

Pff, I don't know it anymore... First I wanted without, after the above posts about SNCB Class 01,  I want 2002 with...

Would make a nice contrast with 2001. Probably it'll come in a next batch with 2004 and 2006?

I have 2003, 2005 and 2007 on pre-order, so time to contemplate (and save!) to decide if I want with or without.

 

Bloody Hornby! 😁

 

 

The choice of a locomotive is very personal and of course totally subjective. 

If, R3984 LNER P2 'Earl Marischal' 2002 is modelled in "as built" condition, then it will reflect the original 1933-34 design team's design intent.  Obviously, 2001 and 2002 had a very specific purpose and were at a juncture of ideas at the time with experience from the A3 boiler, the W1 casing, Chapelon's internal streamlining and reduced exhaust back pressure, they looked bold and exciting - which the LNER exploited in the engineering press at the time - perhaps a statement of what the future could be like beyond 1934... but before the A4 changed all that.

If the (probably a future) model has the smoke deflector mods for dealing with the smoke clearance visibility, then in this state, the locomotive prototype is visually interesting but those additional deflectors are somewhat incongruous with the rest of the machine – I think it is the position of the nameplates being a bit low.  But 2002 did run for a bit longer with them then without them.

I thought i'd have a look at the time line (see attached) for when the main stylistic changes occurred which may have an influence as to what is approriate modelling wise:

According to Yeadon's, 2001 went "into traffic" 22/05/1934 and 2002 followed her in 06/10/1934. 2001 was based out of Doncaster and undertook trials, tuning up and fiddling around with the blast pipe (and Kychap petticoats one wonders?), until going into "revenue earning service" January 1935 going to Haymarket 09/06/1935, and then Dundee 22/06/1935.  The poor visibility from smoke clearance was an issue with 2002 once the exhaust system and usual valve gear cut off characteristics had been sorted - and as a result of wind tunnel tests, the additional smoke deflectors + other mods were designed and fitted by 17/04/1935, before she went to Haymarket.

Of course, the other P2s with their Bugatti mania wedge front casings (but the same exhaust system as 2002) starting coming out from June 1936, and so 2002 went back to Doncaster 07/08/1936 to receive a facelift to match 2003-6, exiting Doncaster 14/10/1936.  Not sure when it stopped being green but rebuilt to an A2 1944.

So in broad brush strokes leaving out detail external changes like cab cut outs and tablet exchange gear:

• 2002 was in "as built" condition for 5 months being shedded in England (surely it ran in Scotland in this condition?)
• She then ran with the smoke clearing aid modifications for 16 months shedded in Scotland returning to Doncaster every now and again until...
• the powers that be felt that it was necessary to get 2002 into the same style as other P2s in which physical state she lasted 7.5 years ish - although not sure when she went black.

Also, it seems that 2002 had a run of bad luck:

• Aside from the muckings about with the casing for smoke clearance (smoke deflectors)
• Shortly after she was ordered, she was cancelled, only to be re ordered later
• Her originally allocated tender was instead paired off with an A3 so had to make do with a different tender intended for an A3, so ended up with a different style tender tank
• She was involved in a derailment at Kings Cross which resulted in a redesign to the front pony truck to allow for more movement which was applied to the rest of the class
• While diagnosing the above at Doncaster it was found that one of her main driving wheelset axles was bent.  During this investigation, being shunted around a tight curve, the assisting locomotive derailed. 
• While the mono block casting was a triumph of engineering and foundry art, the streamlining and passage ways weren’t generous enough which hampered the locomotive’s performance.

This is naturally all par for the course for a prototype.

Anyway, I hope lucky owners who take the plunge will be delighted to have an RTR P2 – it looks to be a lovely model, and until the other version is made, it might not happen*. 

*EDIT: meant to add: even though there is a change in people at Hornby, I still think they will probably do more versions of the P2 in the future - obvs may depend on how many of this batch left over.  As    @JSpencer  and @gary_lner and others have pointed out there are postings of facebook that is the plan.

We shall see.

Some interesting info here:

https://www.a1steam.com/educational-resources/prince-of-wales/no-2002-earl-marischal  (incident with KX, pony truck and bent axle)

Yeadon's Register Volume 9: https://rail-books.co.uk/products/yeadons-register-of-lner-locomotives-volume-9-classes-o1-o2-p1-p2-and-u1-9781899624072

I'm sure these is stuff in the Gresley Observer, but I have no idea where mine are.  Also RCTS Locomotives of the LNER Part 6B https://archive.rcts.org.uk/locomotives-of-the-lner/

Some nice pics in these if you come across them:

https://www.classicmagazines.co.uk/issue/View/issue/RM201312/december-2013

https://www.railmags.org/brill2000/8621-brill-2000-september.html

This Malcome Roote painting: https://www.railart.co.uk/gallery/root.shtml

BTW, SNCB Class 1, there is also this Trix model but I think the Hornby offering will be way better value:

https://www.trix.de/en/products/details/article/25480

4 hours ago, peteskitchen said:

I completely removed the underside of the trailing bogie area, and fitted a front bogie originally from a Margate black 5 with the flanged wheels fitted as supplied with the W1. It just happens to be exactly the correct axles spacing. I was suprised how hard the mazak was to cut etc. 

Nice one.  Did you spread the plastic frame plates around the trailing axle or are they moulded that way?  What radius do you think she'll go around?

Well now...

15 hours ago, TomScrut said:

So given we are likely to have models of 2007 before the real one is finished, does anyone know if the real life design is completed (meaning the Hornby model could be accurate)? I thought it was said that they'd be making these when the real one was near completion, but as far as I am aware it isn't quite what I'd call near.

I believe that the major visual external features will have been available to the Hornby design team at the time they were designing theirs mainly because it was necessary to evaluate that the full size locomotive would conform to the reduced structural loading gauge of the modern railway early on in the design feasibility process.  Other external visual features different to the 1930s engines would have also have been known at the time: at the top of my head: balance weights on the wheels, A1 boiler washout plugs, cab cut outs, twin turbo gen set, tender tank and pantograph.  Detail design work for 2007 is all but complete. 

Progress on the build of 2007 has had to be delayed firstly due to consequences of the pandemic, and more recently, while the trust focuses efforts to get Tornado back together (and earning again), and they move into Darligton Locomotive Works 2. The youtube link to the Oct 2022 is quite useful in understanding the many challenges and the enormous progress made thus far.  See also: https://www.a1steam.com/prince-of-wales/news

On 30/06/2023 at 17:51, palmsticks said:

MISSING LOCOMOTIVE

Have you seen this engine?

 

 

The steamy vapour making P2 2007 "Prince of Wales" model R3983SS seems to have disappeared off the Hornby website search facility.  Google can find it, however, it is marked with a rather severe red Unavailble label.

https://uk.Hornby.com/products/lner-p2-class-2-8-2-2007-prince-wales-steam-generator-era-11-r3983ss

 

Anybody know if this has been cancelled or has it been temporarily lost down the back of the proverbial sofa?

Good* news** - the Hornby website search engine is now listing R3983SS again.  It has returned from down the back of the sofa along with the TV remote, half a dozen peanut m&m's, and a revised (later) arrival date.

*= Good is relative depending on your obsession with monstrous green track wrecking machines and your view of the current state of the world.

**= I'm not sure this counts as news.

MISSING LOCOMOTIVE

Have you seen this engine?

The steamy vapour making P2 2007 "Prince of Wales" model R3983SS seems to have disappeared off the Hornby website search facility.  Google can find it, however, it is marked with a rather severe red Unavailble label.

https://uk.Hornby.com/products/lner-p2-class-2-8-2-2007-prince-wales-steam-generator-era-11-r3983ss

Anybody know if this has been cancelled or has it been temporarily lost down the back of the proverbial sofa?

Seems R30229 and R30104 have arrived into stock? Does anybody know what the "upgrades" are on these 2023 releases of the APT sets vs. the 2020* versions?  Looks like they have magnetic couplings now based on the images / datasheet on the Hornby website for the non driving power car to the FV3 trailer.  The not-so-super-duper 10ft long capacitors seem to be missing** from the coach interiors. Obvs, the images are are not necessarily accurate, so hence the query here.

*= or was it 2021? - My brain is not letting me remember the detail of those years

**= hopefully hidden!

Thanks in advance!

https://uk.Hornby.com/products/br-class-370-advanced-passenger-train-sets-370001-and-370002-7-car-train-pack-era-7-r30229?

Datasheet: https://support.Hornby.com/hc/article_attachments/5620154591890/HSS-456B-Class-370-APT-NDM-DTS.pdf

5 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

I doubt the NRM plate was a replica. It would be an original, even if it was a spare not carried by the locomotive.

It might be a replica as it is not listed on their object search page:

https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/search/objects/object_type/nameplate?page[number]=1

Also:

https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/search/objects/object_type/locomotive-nameplate?page=100

Be interesting to know. Will email  search.engine@railwaymuseum.org.uk

5 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

LNWR George V 5000 Coronation's plates were definitely red.

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=153989880757247&set=a.116674507822118

 

 

Jason

Wow! that is some nameplate!

Anybody got LMS Locomotives in Profile 11 to see if it mentions anything?

https://wildswanbooks.co.uk/Books/Coronation-Pacifics-Profile11.htm

maybe

https://wildswanbooks.co.uk/Books/Coronation-Pacifics-Profile11-Sup.htm

59 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

There's a lamp on the T26 at Bressingham ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GER_Class_T26 ) ..... no idea whether it's the right type tho'.

Ah thanks for this.  From the pic that looks like an LNER standard one.  I need one of those too one day for a different project!

1 hour ago, Bucoops said:

Might be worth asking John Jolly at Mangapps - if anyone has one it will be there.

Yes - good thinking

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Having returned from a quite splendid day at the Ely show, may I please thank the event's organising team, all those with whom I spoke and those who gave most-generously to CRUK, either through direct donations or via buying models I had for sale? I managed to fix a couple or so locos, so thanks to those who donated because of that. 

 

On one occasion, I was left speechless (rare for me, I know). A chap brought along an O Gauge diesel shunter, built by the late Graham Varley; beautifully-built as well. ' It's stopped working', I was told. It had. I investigated and a sand pipe had been bent so as to touch a wheel (causing a short). Not only that, even after I'd fixed it, the pick-ups needed adjustment. Which I did. It then ran fine. Now, it's understood that, if I'm successful in getting a loco running (I'm there as a 'loco-doctor', after all), then a modest donation to CRUK is expected (nothing, if I can't make it go). This chap just said 'Thanks', and before I had a chance to make a request, he'd disappeared into the crowd! The next time I see him (and I'll remember him), and he needs something fixing (and any fool could have done what I did), then I'll tell him where to go! 

 

Mr Pint of Adnams brought along a 70+ year old Rovex-Tri-ang PRINCESS ELIZABETH, pretending to hope I might get it to go. He knew, of course, that with a dud motor and missing brushes there was no hope, but it brought back memories for me.

 

The catering was also splendid at Ely.  

Hello Tony,

Great to meet you today and thank you for your patience with young Master Tom.  He hasn't stopped talking about two Sir Nigel Gresleys, "the gold A4" annd the A1 and A3 that "need mending".  Your display stand seems to have made quite the impression!  Super do at Ely, thanks to all involved.

Regards,

Dave

Hello all,

I am after some details regards the construction of the GER Holden loco headlamp as drawn by Lyn Brookes in GERS journal 2 and here: www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/locomoti...ets/headcodes-part-1

On first look, its just a square-ish based lamp similar to GWR, MR, etc but on closer look it has some distinctive features and asymmetry.  I wish to make some models for a model engineering project and would like to understand the assembly method of the original (and what all the sticking out grab handles do!).

Does anybody have a real one or know the whereabouts of one, or failing that, know of any info that could shed some light (haha - see what I did there!) on the details of this lamp?  An engineering drawing would be perfect but I don't think one exists in York on the GERS but would love to be shown otherwise.

I have a memory of seeing a film of a lamp being built, I think a GWR at Swindon - maybe a documentary in the run up to 1985 but cannot be sure.  If anyone knows what this might be, please let me know.

This query has also gone to the GERS forum, but thought i'd air it here for a larger audience.

Many thanks in advanced,

Kind regards,

Dave

G5 goodness on the Saffron Walden branch.

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bartlow/bartlow(cu_summer1955)old14.jpg

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bartlow/bartlow(bartlow_jmc5.1956)old13.jpg

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/a/ashdon_halt/ashdon(jamieson1956)halt_old2.jpg

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/saffron_walden/more/saffron(peter_jamieson_summer1956)walden_old30.jpg

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/saffron_walden/index.shtml

Marvellous! Another no no brainer CO CO!  Great news that you're taking on the Hattons tooling and have updated it.

This is FANTASTIC! Love the relief on the bogies.

On 16/02/2023 at 10:11, rogerzilla said:

It's still scandalous that Papyrus was scrapped

100%.  Although, in the warehouse of the NRM...

Perhaps in the future, the technology will exist to extract the locomotive DNA from a sample and grow a new one?

On 16/02/2023 at 10:11, rogerzilla said:

we only have FS, which is a right mashup.

Still grateful for all the machines that still exist, and the people who made it happen and worked on them.  4472 is probably in better condition now than it has ever been thanks to Riley's an co.

Thanks for the suggestion for Firdaussi for the ID swap.  However, i'm going to use Brook Law for the reasons pointed out by  @JamieR4489.

On 16/02/2023 at 13:36, 2750Papyrus said:

Just a thought. If Hornby are contemplating issuing fictitious liveries, Great Eastern blue might be appropriate for the most prestigious East Anglian service....

With "N E" on the tender for Thompson fans!

Also see:

https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13587

22 hours ago, JamieR4489 said:

The drive is also on the wrong side. 2573 was rebuilt from an A1 in 1928 and retained the right-hand drive until the 1950s whereas 2750 was built as an A3 so it had left-hand drive (this means the vacuum ejector pipe is on the wrong side of the boiler on 2573 for 2750). Annoyingly, Hornby have never done a pre-war left-hand drive A3 with the GNR tender. The easiest way to make one would probably be to get Book Law and either Flying Fox or Gladiateur and swap the tenders over.

Thanks for this.  I thought modifying the reversing rod etc would be relatively easy but forgot about the vacuum ejector pipe which looks a bit harder to deal with to swap sides without damaging the livery.  Good suggestion on other candidates that could form the basis of an identity swap, will take a look.  It's a shame that Hornby are modelling 2573 Harvester in her A3 guise and not A1, as in that state she formed the basis of a famous* miniature locomotive in 10.25" gauge built by HCS Bullock in 1936.  * = very niche level of fame.

On 22/01/2023 at 13:24, Gilwell Park said:

The W1 was never named, but Hornby gave it one.

But it very nearly was and could have been, twice - which gives naming credibility.  On a sliding scale of say 0 = fitting it with Warp Nassles, say 3 = paint it crimson lake (wouldn't it look nice?), 10 = build a full size replica in Darlington, i'd put naming it about 6.  Compared to the amount of flight of fantasies of having a W1 on a typical model railway: never went, never pulled, never stood next too, never would get round such and such a radius etc, naming is fine and completely, utterly unscoffable.

EDIT.  Completely lost myself there.  B17/5: yeah paint it BR green.  Would look great.  However, obviously would be automatically wrong as LNER apple green(s) is are the best and the only green(s) suitable for locomotives.  All other greens are piffle.

EDIT EDIT: apple deleted (other greens available):  See posts below by @Pint of Adnams re grass green not apple green. I did not know this, so thank you!