Mike_Walker

Brilliant! As my old mate Jim Boyd used to often remark: two nations separated by a common language. Once, when it had been agreed I'd do an article for Railfan magazine, I said I'd "knock something up when I get home". "Hold it right there" said Boyd, "I know what you mean but never use that expression here - it means something completely different". Similarly, a prim elderly lady friend of my mother was horrified when one of her grandchildren in Canada was named Randy.

The lower image in the OP is indeed of a Mersey Railway set, in fact the last, at Birkenhead North on its way to the breakers in June 1957. It can be found in the Colour-Rail catalogue as DE1666.

Yes, the 4 character displays at Birmingham Snow Hill were restricted to 'internal' use only with the previous external describers retained as you rightly say and as shown in this photo of the panel. Peter K's original question referred to the panel so we are both right! An interesting detail is that this was situated in a former waiting room at the London end of the down island platform. The large brick building seen in some photos taken during the resignalling alongside the distinctive old Snow Hill North SB often incorrectly described in photo captions as the 'panel' was merely the relay room for the whole scheme. The subsequent panels were located on the first floor of purpose built buildings with the local relays on the ground floor supported by remote interlockings in windowless buildings at outlying junctions. The Snow Hill control area was too small to require remote interlockings. The WR mechanical train describers were indeed notorious for 'slipping' as a train moved across the panel - you might start with 1A23 at one end but it could be very different by the time it got to the other. Fortunately the Bobbies were able to amend as required. One of the reasons for this that I've heard from some of the old timers associated with the Swindon project is that back in the day most of their brethren smoked like chimneys resulting in a tar laden atmosphere that gummed up the works - to say nothing of what it did for them! Unfortunately, Peter W is off grid at the moment with family issues so I can't get a clarification from him. He certainly knows his stuff and researched his book meticulously but everyone makes the odd mistake. Anyway, this has to be the mother of all thread drifts - we started out on the subject of the GWR pre-war electrification scheme and have ended up here discussing WR 1960s signalling by way of the WCML electric loco fleet! 🤔

What a fantastic collection of vintage petrol pumps.

Just what I was thinking but didn't want to tempt fate!

According to my esteemed Swindon Panel colleague Peter Woodbridge in his magnum opus A Chronology of UK Railway Signalling 1825-2018 the WR introduced the 4 character train ID in 1958 which was indeed first used in panel displays at Birmingham Snow Hill which was commissioned in 1959 - the first WR E10k interlocking and push-turn entrance-exit panel albeit with some differences from the "production" panels such as Swindon that followed. The system was updated in 1961 to the form we are familiar with. It should be noted that ahead of this, the first use of panel train describers occurred in the Crewe - Manchester area of the LMR in 1958. The original system used only 10 letters out of 26 in any given area as the WR displays were Sodeco mechanical rotating drums which could only display 10 characters per drum. These were somewhat unreliable and once LEDs became available the dot matrix displays were installed in the same apertures. Miniature cathode ray tubes were used elsewhere.

Whilst I don't wish to start an argument, I can't let Bernard's accusation of "trolling" pass unchallenged. I've re-read my original post that he seems to take exception to and can only think he is referring to my reaction to his original comment: "If you cannot afford it them probably you are not the target market" as the remainder of the post referred to the amount of detail. I wasn't making a personal attack and it would appear that he has misunderstood the point I was trying to make. He is, of course, correct in saying that a company needs to continually improve its product/service to survive, but equally it needs to enlarge its customer base and preferably market share. It's no good creating the perfect mousetrap if your customers decide they can no longer afford it and decide to buy a lump of cheese and a hammer instead. A diminishing market ultimately becomes unsustainable. I fear this is what could happen to the model railway trade. I don't accept that all this detail adds only marginally to the cost. It has to be made, either with costly to produce moulds or etches, then assembled into the model. This simply has to increase assembly complexity and time; and time = money anywhere in the world. I am in the fortunate position not to lie awake at night worrying about the cost of living and can afford to buy models at these prices if I choose to do so but I am concerned for those modellers on pensions, low or even average earnings who are increasingly struggling to afford life's necessities and for whom model railways or any other hobby or leisure activity is becoming increasingly out of the question. I don't think for one moment that Accurascale Fran or Rapido Andy are only interested in selling their wares to the increasingly diminishing cohort with lots of spare cash to throw at their hobby and leave the others to live off the second hand market. They want to sell to as much product as possible and build their businesses. I want to see them and their ilk thrive and still be around in 20 or 30 years time (even if I won't!) but if the "target market" continues to diminish there comes a time when, as I say, it becomes unsustainable. Quality is many things and not just incorporating the smallest detail. It's also about delivering DRL - Dependability, Reliability, Longevity - and good old VFM - Value For Money. I, for one, would not be impressed if I'd shelled out £200 or more on a loco which sheds parts as I remove from the box or it makes its first run on the layout and then dies completely after only a year or so of gentle use. I like to read threads on here about models I have no intention of buying just to see what those that have think and experience. I'm therefore saddened to read of even the highly praised AS Deltic losing bits like the bogie chains whilst operating. You wouldn't accept bits falling off a new car or domestic appliance then giving up the ghost in next to no time so why is it acceptable in model railways. Customers should not be expected to fix it themselves even if they have the skill which the majority probably don't. Returning to the question of detail; how many were demanding things like compartment luggage racks before Dapol included them in their forthcoming Toplights swiftly followed by Rapido's B Set? I don't recall these being mentioned as desirable in RMweb yet they will probably become the norm, adding to the cost, and frankly, invisible unless the model is picked up and closely examined. I've nothing against interior detail, young Mr Wolf is currently enthralling us with his garage interior which he admits will barely be visible when the roof is on and it's planted on the layout. But he's created those details himself and he's rightly proud of his achievement but I don't see the need of including it in a RTR model. If you want it, add it yourself - there's a niche there for an after-market small supplier. Similarly, these hyper-detailed models stand out like a sore thumb when placed in a train of vehicles made as little as , say, five years ago. Some things are desirable: proper rather than moulded door handles, hand rails and ventilators on coaches or separate brake levers and shoes in line with wheels on wagons for example but do we really need the full brake rigging especially when the rods don't actually go anywhere but hang in space (and therefore vulnerable to damage) because nobody has a clue how to connect them to the brake shoes and still get round even 4th radius curves let alone 2nd. Whilst I can afford to buy the latest offerings I prefer to build a kit. The result might not be quite as perfect but I get the additional satisfaction of having made it myself rather than simply opening the box and putting it on the track. We get too hung up on minor discrepancies. I regularly run a Hornby Collett bow-ender with a Sunshine Brake Compo. The latter is a Replica era example from 40+ year old Mainline tooling yet the two look, to me, perfect running together. Some will point out that the latter is a couple of scale inches out in length but that doesn't show on the layout and I'm sure it wouldn't in a show case either unless it's next to a ruler. On another thread recently the problem of the Bachmann cattle wagon that is a foot too long has been aired once more. Again is it actually noticeable and the majority of us turn a blind eye to the gauge being 7" too narrow yet obsess about the odd inch or so elsewhere! The latest "must have" it seems is the return of smoke. Sorry, it didn't convince me back in the Tri-ang era and it won't now. The simple fact is the laws of physics means you can't scale down the vapour to replicate the density of a locomotive exhaust. Look through any collection of steam loco photos and you'll see exhausts ranging from the merest wisp from a coasting loco on hot summer day to the volcanic eruptions of a hard working loco on a frigid winter morn. Every shade from pure white to black with, never mind 50 shades, but 500 shades of grey in between. This simply cannot be replicated. Likewise I see we now have diesel models offered with smoke generators - sorry guys but if you see a real 66 or other modern loco smoking it's in trouble (I was once told in no uncertain terms by the chief engineer of a very pro-ALCo railroad that ALCos don't smoke if properly maintained - his fleet proved his point!). Another issue is that few of us can make make the scene that matches the quality of the models resulting in a visible mis-match. I'm also no fan of sound, either steam or diesel, they never capture the nuances of the real thing, probably due to the size of the speakers that can be fitted and the fact that all the subtle sounds emitted by a live steam loco cannot be replicated. For me, I prefer to imagine the smoke and sounds; a model railway is, to me, much like a theatre. We have to suspend belief in some areas but it doesn't, hopefully, distract from the enjoyment. Similarly, there are those who will maintain that the "pictures" are better on the radio than on TV - you let your mind imagine what's going on.

Hi Andy, Seems to be OK once more. Thanks for all your help you must be as frustrated as hell by now! Mike

08 and cute; that's two things I never thought I'd see in the same context. 🤣

Interesting. I was under the impression (obviously misguided) that there was a general move to integrate NR and TOC controls into the same room for that very reason. Certainly that's the case on GWR at Swindon and both sides work closely and harmoniously together - so I'm told by both the boss and one of his control minions... 😀 Why the change of heart at SWR/NR Wessex?

The Cornish main line is being resignalled this year and I think St Simon said on another thread that provision was being included to upgrade the Newquay branch to accommodate this service.

Alternatively do what they did at the old Reading depot. A block on a piece of string hanging from the roof - when it hits the windscreen you stop, fast!

Hi Andy, Yes it's the pop up video usually either for BRM or Hornby that appears either at the top or in the middle of a thread plus the Rapido trade add across the top of the page. Also on this thread there is a video ad in the bottom RH corner for a variety of things both modelling and non-modelling. Any help? Cheers, Mike

This morning on my PC using the default 2021 theme I've been getting adverts all over the place so I've switched back to the temporary theme. I realise Andy must be at his wits end by now but the high ups at Warners really need to be reminded in the strongest terms that those of us on Premium and Gold are not getting what we pay for.

On my mobile I'm getting video adverts. So far they've been for BRM and Hornby. I've selected the 2021 default theme.

No one is denying that cuts are coming, probably from the May timetable change and will be across the board. All the TOCs, including those controlled by DOR, have been instructed by the DfT to submit proposals on how to reduce their costs by 25%. This is a blanket instruction that applies equally to all irrespective of their individual circumstances and may take the form of service cuts - either thinning out frequencies or "bustitution" of branch lines - or by fleet reduction which will inevitably result in shorter trains. 12 car trains never regularly operated outside the London and South East area because they weren't needed. Here on the GWML we saw a great deal of investment in extending platforms to handle 12 car 387s which were needed before the pandemic but now, with so much WFH, they are not and it is doubtful we shall ever get back to traffic levels that require them. The trouble is, the civil servants responsible for devising these cuts are all living in the south east were the impact on commuter traffic has been the most pronounced. If you go to Manchester for example commuter traffic has rebounded to broadly pre-pandemic levels with overcrowding as a result yet the DfT don't seem to realise this. Any discussion about the finances of TOCs is now largely irrelevant. Some did get substantial public financial support whilst others had to pay hefty premiums but that was under the old franchise agreements all of which have now been terminated. As I've said before, today, all revenue is collected by the TOCs but is passed on directly to the government. They get reimbursed for their costs plus a small fee. There was an interesting discussion on Today on Radio 4 this morning just after 8.10 concerning Trans Pennine which is worth catching on BBC Sounds if you didn't hear it live.

The attitude of adb968008 sounds to me a lot like the ignorant civil servants at the DafT that are doing so much damage to our railway network these days.

There is only one privately owned and operated passenger service (Brightside in Florida) in both the United States and Canada. Amtrak and VIA are owned by the national governments although sometimes working in partnership with state/provincial governments which also own the various commuter networks. Only a small part of the mileage covered by Amtrak and VIA are owned by those organisations the remainder belongs to the privately-owned freight companies who have a bad habit of prioritising their freight trains to the detriment of passenger trains - a long-standing joke is that "on time" on Amtrak is to appear on the correct day! Many of the commuter lines do however own their own infrastructure. As others have said, there may be two routes connecting London and Exeter but that's only the end points, in between they serve very different markets and to withdraw one or the other would leave a large part of the population without access to rail services. Avanti and LNER both link London and Glasgow by different routes; are you suggesting one of those be withdrawn too? Your recent posts show you appear to have little knowledge of how the modern railway is structured and the markets it serves.

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They may both be FirstGroup companies but GWR's head office is in Swindon and SWR's at Waterloo so "one person at one desk spinning his chair around and talking to his mate sat in the other" is not possible. Given the very close working relationship between Mark Hopwood (GWR) and Clare Mann (SWR) there are probably very good reasons for things being handled as they are.

As Mike said above, under the current system there is no incentive to do so. All revenue goes directly to the treasury via the DfT and the TOCs are paid in return their operating costs plus a small margin - usually less than 5%. If you were running a business would you go out of your way to do someone else's work for such a small return?

Before that. The political class have never forgiven the fact that the first fatality on the railway was one of their own - overlooking it was his own fault of course. They've been plotting revenge ever since.

Once again we appear to have someone wanting something for nothing whilst expecting others to pay for his "free" entertainment. I give up!!

In a word: Yes.

I see exactly the same thing every time I use our neighbouring branch line - the next one towards London from Mike's.