Mike_Walker

True in part but the early abandonment of the pilot scheme was more the result of political pressure to reduce costs by speeding up the withdrawal of labour intensive steam in the face of rapidly escalating losses rather than a desire to promote employment. Had BR been allowed to follow through with the pilot scheme those "lemons" we were saddled with would not have got beyond the initial batches. Those rapidly escalating losses resulted from the rapid decline in both passenger numbers and freight tonnage following the national strike by ASLEF in 1956 which led to an explosion in private car ownership and road haulage. A lesson for today perhaps? History has a habit of repeating itself.

The point is that the race for ever more detail appears to be self-fulfilling. Before these details started to be fitted by manufacturer X then followed by Y plying top trumps was there actually a demand from the majority of modellers for them? But, once they've appeared it becomes the norm that becomes the norm that every one aspires to or demands. What makes me laugh is how those often demanding more detail then complain about the spiralling costs. Do they think it should be provided without adding to the cost?

Most certainly! I think the current arms race for ever more detail is getting out of hand. Actually I was debating this with the staff at one of our leading model railway emporiums only last week and they agreed things have gone too far with the result that bits fall off as soon as they are removed from the box or subjected to running on a layout. They then have the customer, often disgruntled, returning the item for replacement. It seems the hobby is increasingly dividing into two camps, those of us who actually want to run our models on a layout and those that simply collect and put them in a display cabinet, although many never leave their boxes as that, apparently, devalues them. For those of us in the former group do we really need fully detailed underframes on wagons or luggage racks in coaches neither of which can be seen when running on a layout? I did, briefly, consider buying an Accurascale Siphon to replace my "breathed on" Lima one but on reflection thought why? The superbly detailed underframe will never be visible when running and the small body details will similarly become invisible when running and viewed from the typical 6' viewing distance. And any details that drop off my Lima one are down to my shoddy workmanship - not that I'm suggesting for a moment AS inflicts such on us! That said, I shall be replacing my two aging Airfix-era B sets with the new Rapido ones but I do wish they didn't have so many tiny details which will not be seen, reduce the robustness of the product and merely push the cost up to eye-watering levels. There are other things that drive me nuts. Firebox flicker/glow. What's that about? No fireman would leave the fire door open for long periods and why do diesel or electric locos or MUs always have cab lights lit up. Again, no driver would even think of going out with the cab lights on - all you'd see would be your own reflection in the windscreen that instantly becomes a mirror! Yes, I know DCC enables you to select these functions but not everyone uses DCC either because they choose not to (we like to stick with what we grew up with and understand) or can't afford it. As for the collectors market, again, these details can only be seen either by handling the model (with the risk of said bits dropping off) or displaying them standing on a mirror. Perhaps I'm in a minority here, but I don't get it... As for saying "Nobody has a divine right to purchase any item. If you cannot afford it them probably you are not the target market." I think that's a bit offensive and smacks of superiority over those unfortunate enough not to have huge personal disposable incomes. When I first entered the hobby, around six decades ago, model railways was a hobby that virtually anyone could enjoy - I saved a tanner a week from my pocket money to buy a Triang Jinty - but it seems that today it's rapidly heading towards being only for the likes of Peter Waterman, Rod Stewart, Jools Holland or those with similarly deep pockets. Some may argue that we should wait for these items to come on the second hand market but why should we be denied the opportunity of acquiring, new, robust and affordable models?

Avanti and TPE both have FirstGroup as the major partner so not "foreign owned" unless you regard Scotland as foreign. Abellio have recently sold their UK rail and bus operations to the UK management as they were no longer profitable. Once again, please get your facts right before spouting off.

I can't speak about the Hornby series but I do know that for the Paddington 24/7 series GWR did have the ability to determine what did or did not go into the final edit.

Sadly, I doubt if that question will come up again!

Hull Trains is an open access operator which is free to do want it wants and it succeeds or fails by its own actions - it gets no government support. The same applies to Grand Central and Lumo. As mentioned earlier in this thread, LNER and Northern (along with South Eastern) are effectively state owned as they are managed by the government's "operator of last resort". Paradoxically, they are subject to less rigid control than the supposedly "privatised" TOCs and therefore have more freedom in such matters. As others have said, the TOCs are now just operators who have to get even the smallest decision approved by the DfT and therefore there is no longer any real incentive for them to offer the range of fares they used to. And don't forget, the government's declared aim is to return to a "simple" fare structure which, presumably, means a single fare offered for each journey irrespective of time or day.

Regarding possible overseas markets for Deltics, my sadly departed friend Jim Boyd was of the firm opinion that if any North American railroad tried out the prototype Deltic it would have been the Pennsylvania as they could never resist trying anything that was a " bit different" or an oddball - just look at their early diesel roster. Can't you just picture it in Tuscan red with gold pinstripes working on the New York & Long Branch alongside those CNJ double-ended Baldwins? Jim also used to claim that those railroads that roster Fairbanks-Morse units with their opposed piston engines did so to provide a penance for disgraced mechanics to work on. Just imagine what level of misdemeanour would have to be committed to be given a Deltic to work on... BTW, Jim was an EMD field service representative before becoming a rail journalist so perhaps just a tad biased.

Whilst I'm seeing ads for all sort s of things, I'm not seeing any for Digitrains. I don't know whether I should be relieved of feel I'm being ignored... 😥

I think it was O S Nock who recounts that Collett wasn't impressed by the request to streamline his locos so he sent the office boy out to purchase some plasticine which he applied to a paperweight model loco on his desk and sent it to the drawing office with instructions to "make something like this".

I'm seeing adverts across the bottom of the screen on my PC which weren't there earlier today. I'm Premium and I've checked themes and it's OK.

Well, Mike The Stationmaster will be able to watch the quizzes on BBC2 without missing anything.😊

I didn't hear anything.

In the early years of this century First Great Western, as it then was, did briefly reinstate Motorail between Paddington and Penzance using two modified GUVs but it was not a commercial success conveying as few as 4 cars on some journeys. In addition there was one event that certainly will not have helped the cause. That incident involved an up journey into Paddington, and three cars occupying one of the vans. After loading, all cars of course had to have their handbrakes on, in addition to which scotches were used under the wheels as an additional precaution to prevent movement. The story went that the car in the middle was a very specialist sports car and the member of staff at Penzance loading it did not know how the handbrake worked – and what happened about the scotches seems also to be a mystery. The unhappy fact is that this expensive vehicle spent the entire journey rolling around in the van, smashing into and writing off the two other vehicles (not to mention itself) in the process. Quite how nobody heard all the smashing and banging as the journey progressed is a further mystery. The faces of the people who opened up the doors of the van upon arrival at Paddington can only be imagined, and I dread to think what the reaction of the car owners was!

I always think the same when I see the similar one at Didcot but then I always like to have my feet firmly on terra-firmer...

Now all that's needed is some trains!

The diplomatic corps loss is the hobby's gain!

The quality of management is important, not just in general terms but specifically at individual levels. Much of the current issues at Avanti stem from the attitudes of a former MD who was particularly unpleasant towards his employees who have reacted in an understandable way. Elsewhere, we have the opposite, people like Mark Hopwood at GWR or the late Adrian Shooter when at Chiltern who inspire their teams and will get them to go the extra mile to get the job done. Since Adrian left Chiltern morale has hit the floor exemplified by the Turbo which ran around for several days with its branding skilfully amended to read: "Chiltern Railways sadly a part of Arriva, a DB company." Mark Hopwood once said to me: "Treat your staff as you would expect to be treated. If you treat them like s**t don't be surprised if they treat you with contempt and become bolshee." It's not confined to the railways. We had a supermarket here which got a new manager who was a right bar-steward to his staff and not much better towards his customers. The staff morale collapsed and the customers suffered as a result. After he departed it took ages for things to recover by which time the company had overlooked its lease was expiring and a rival moved in and, in effect, chucked them out!

The old franchise system is no more. All the TOCs now operate under management contracts where the DfT takes all the revenue and reimburses the TOCs for their operating costs with a fixed percentage premium on top as a "profit". This is well below what any private business would expect to gain as a return on it's investment which is why the pool of companies willing to bid for such contracts, both here and overseas, is rapidly diminishing. For example, Abellio (part of the Dutch railways) has recently sold off it's UK interests to its management citing the reason that there is no longer an opportunity in the UK to generate the profits which it used to subsidise its home business. Speaks volumes for the sad state the industry has sunk into and not of its own making. How many of those cleaners are actually members of the RMT or any other union? Very few I would think which is the reason they are employed that way and their employers are not the TOCs but sub-contractors.

No, it's not the TOCs that want to close ticket offices, in most cases they oppose it. It's the civil servants at the DfT (one in particular) who are pushing for it led by ministers who have no real understanding of the industry (if they do, Sir Humphrey has them moved on at the next reshuffle). Likewise, the push towards extended DOO is supported by the TOCs but not as a means of getting rid of guards but to allow them to concentrate on the real issue of revenue collection. As I've said before, it is extremely inefficient if a guard who is checking/selling tickets has to keep interrupting these duties to work the doors at each station particularly on busy suburban services. Network Rail have made it quite clear, they do NOT propose any redundancies - in many areas, including key ones like signallers - they are actually struggling to fill posts so why would they want to make staff redundant? The same applies to the TOCs. Sadly, it is the unions who are misleading their members. As for pay, whilst some grades are on fairly modest rates, we have many drivers and signallers who are on the upper levels of five-figure annual incomes and many are now into six-figures - that's right, £100,000 plus I know because I have the contacts within the industry who tell me this - often 'cos they are the recipients. Yes we have a cost of living crisis but if it's leaving those on that sort of incomes struggling then they need to reconsider their personal budgets. How many of us on here are on those sort of incomes?

My daily paper tells me this morning that ministers find Mick Wehlan of ASLEF "unpleasant and objectionable" and are happy for the strikes to continue until June if it destroys him and his union as the get paid well enough already. What a sad state we've sunk to when personal differences are being used to destroy a vital national service. The present "government" is not fit to govern a whelk stall let alone a country. And of course, it's not just the railways that are being damaged but sectors like retail and hospitality putting tens of thousands more jobs at risk. I despair!

I have to agree with all that Mike says. Roughly one third of the passenger trains on the national network are currently DOO as is the entire London Underground with no discernible difference in safety compared to trains with guards still operating the doors. Many drivers actually prefer DOO as they feel it speeds up the operation particularly on busy services where the guard might have to fight his way through to the door controls. I accept there can be a role for a guard/conductor/train manager, call them what you will, on some services. As Mike says, here in the Thames Valley we have branches which are equipped for DOO but the conductor still operates the doors in addition to checking/selling tickets. This causes delays and reduces the number of tickets that can be checked or sold per trip thereby impacting on revenue. It is local agreements that require the conductor to operate the doors but it does mean that if a conductor is unavailable the train can run in full DOO mode - but in the case of the Marlow branch only as far as Bourne End as the last 2 3/4 miles aren't DOO approved! There is also a case for them on long distance trains. In the Marlow Railway Society we have a retired GWR HSS train manager who has been chronicling his memoirs in our club magazine and it is an eye-opener as to what such staff members have to deal with on a daily basis. But again, do they really need to be in charge of opening and closing the doors at every stop? Sadly, I think there is more than a whiff of the 1980s about this. The RMT seems to have aspirations to do what the NUM tried and failed to do; bring down a Tory government. It didn't work then and it almost certainly won't now but the result could be the same for the industry. People are already voting with their feet. Just before Christmas, three GWR drivers, two from Exeter and one from Plymouth, were contributing to another well-known forum. It seems that on the Thursday before Christmas, thanks to the overtime ban, there was only one train from Paddington to the West of England from late afternoon until close of play and that was only a 5-car unit. The trio were gleefully predicting chaos as Paddington would be bursting at the seams as usual at this time of year and this train would, as a result, resemble something from Indian Railways. But in the event they couldn’t understand why Paddington was almost deserted and the train, having carried a few standees as far as Reading, had seats available for the rest of its journey which as it happens was truncated at Plymouth due to no onward crew being available, stranding anyone who wished to continue into Cornwall. Where was everyone? Well, to me the answer is obvious: they were in their cars or on National Express/Megabus coaches on the M4/M5 or A303/A30. Having had their plans so thoroughly disrupted will they be rushing back to the railways in future? One of those GWR drivers then had the brass neck to complain about how difficult it was for his son to get home from Brighton for the festivities! Oh, deep joy! Regrettably I can't see an early resolution to either the railway dispute or the others ongoing or likely to happen as we seem to have a government that is totally incapable of understanding what "negotiation" means or is prepared to allow the managements of those industries/services to deal with the issues. I say that as a life-long Tory supporter who will never, ever vote for them again. On the subject of DOO, a good friend of mine who was, at the time, a senior driver on the Long Island RR, was visiting at the time the Turbos and DOO was being introduced on the Chiltern lines. Reggie got chatting to a driver and was very interested in the concept of DOO - the LIRR at that time would typically have two or three crewmen on the train in addition to the driver. "What" he asked "would you do if someone started shooting back there?" (The LIRR had recently had such an incident). The Chiltern driver looked at him thoughtfully and replied: "I stay in hear mate and that door remains locked!"

Nice idea Mike, but is there enough room?

That was, of course, the proposal when there was talk of closing Marylebone in the early '80s. Since then the service levels on the Chiltern main line (that via High Wycombe) have exploded beyond recognition and I doubt if Paddington could actually accommodate all of those plus, as you say, there are the issues at Old Oak Common. Under the present plans there will be additional Elizabeth Line turnback sidings provided at OOC on the trackbed of the now closed GW "New Line". EL services which today terminate at Paddington LL will continue to OOC. In addition, Chiltern have proposed a two platform terminal station opposite North Acton LU station which would be connected to the main OOC station by a Travolator or similar - they acknowledge that future access to the GWML at OOC will not be possible. This station would not be able to handle all the CML services but the plan is that it would be used for local services from as far out as High Wycombe or possibly Aylesbury via Princes Risborough. Whether this plan ever comes to fruition remains to be seen.

And in the case of GWR's "Pullman" services it still is prepared and cooked on board from freshly sourced local ingredients. Served with Silver Service too - the last surviving example on a "normal" service in this country although they are under pressure from the DfT to abandon it as a cost cutting move despite it being profitable.