MidlandRed

I could understand this if all of the ‘big ticket’ items had been removed from pre orders (or indeed other ‘big ticket’ items). But is that the case, or are we referring to an individual or a number of specific models - in which case it’s a bit disingenuous to be intimating all big ticket items are off the menu for retailers? It remains obvious to me that if you are interested in specific models (and especially those that may be in high demand) then ordering direct will stand greater chance of success. If they arrive damaged it’s a fairly straightforward process to get something sent back, and no more difficult than possibly the majority of us who would have to choose mail order from a retailer (eg Hattons, Rails etc) if an item arrived with some level of fault.

Not sure how that affects the viability of the whole project - however the Bedford to Cambridge section has been somewhat controversial with local residents etc.

I think you can by not ordering them direct when they’re available by that method, whilst also being outraged on social media 😀

Yeah I think this is a laudable approach - however I seem to remember this time last year a similar issue occurred with Hornby whereby not all retailer’s orders were fulfilled - indeed I recall one proud independent model shop in NW Kent/SE London taking delivery of one HD MN Pacific during the television series on Hornby - exclaiming - oh, there’s only one! On this basis I ordered direct to avoid a similar situation with items I wanted. I’ll reserve judgement on how well or otherwise the process works when I receive the models ordered. Meanwhile I continue to order other models through retailers where available (my presumption being that for some Hornby models, this option is in reality, not available - or if it is it’s a bit of a lottery whether you can receive successfully the models you’re after).

I agree the Bachmann 9F is nice. However, this is like saying to fans and purchasers of the recently delivered Deltic models, you didn’t really need those - there was a reasonable model already available (yes I know they haven’t committed unspeakably poor activities against retailers - although it has to be said some are not only retailers but competitors in some respects). I don’t have any 9Fs currently - and definitely not a Saltley mechanical stoker one!! As a fan of 9Fs, I think it’s great Hornby are producing a retooled version - I certainly won’t be boycotting it!!! I also happen to like especially their more recent steam loco models. It would be the same if I wanted a Black 5, HD A4 etc.

Some of us like 9Fs as well - whilst some people have made a point in this thread of saying they would not order direct from Hornby on principle (effectively saying in not so many words they’re boycotting them) although maybe people are also, subconsciously objecting to the slightly higher non discounted price (for those who aren’t members of the collectors club). I guess those who want a 9F will have to (insert model of your choice in place of 9F, eg Black 5; A4 etc etc) - I viewed the price increase as relatively marginal. I just wonder whether, owing to the Titfield saga, in order to meet financial targets which would have included sales of the cancelled items they’ve been forced into activities like the subject of this thread (NB there are other Hornby ventilation of spleen threads available for that subject).

Not the best informed SoS it appears - he probably doesn’t know half of it’s already built. A couple of weeks back he stated with some conviction “the Government doesn’t own the railways you know”……. well for some bits that’s true, but not Network Rail which is an arms length company under Government ownership. Either that or it was ‘porkies’!!

The knowledge that this has happened in the past (to at least one person I know) is precisely the reason I ordered direct from Hornby - to ensure I get the models I wanted. Not sure if I made that clear but that is the case. I also have sympathy for the retailers not being given a straight story by the particular manufacturer (Hornby) - however several retailers have had plenty of orders for other models from me - just not pre-orders for Hornby.

Thanks for replying - I’m happy to support you and trust the model to arrive eventually, but thanks for the offer (and for the courtesy of replying). I was a little surprised at the time - maybe I didn’t understand the options available at the time - yours would not be the only website where I have got confused at some point but you may wish to look into whether it’s abundantly clear what the options are. I shall be ordering more models from you in due course (hoping for new variants in the second batches for each!!)

As a recent re-entrant to the model railway hobby I have read this thread with interest, but with none of the ongoing history of Hornby (except recent events over the last couple of years (some of them seemingly balmy (Titfield) and the TV programme). Perhaps my approach is different from those who’ve been around much longer. They have announced two models I’m very interested in this year so (in order to guarantee their delivery) I have ordered them direct from Hornby (no deposit) - I know other people who’ve done the same in recent years - this is no different from several other models I’ve ordered from others variously including Accurascale (who took the full whack payment for something due for delivery some time hence), SLW (no deposit) and Rapido (minimal deposit) - I have ordered other models recently through major retailers (they’re not available direct) - and regularly use them to purchase models they have in stock, including variously TMC, Hattons, Rails and Kernow. There are no brick and mortar shops anywhere near where I live these days. I’m certainly not going to shy away from direct manufacturer orders as a principle as I suspect this method will continue to be part of the breadth of the sales model for the industry (if other retail is anything to go by). I have also noticed that some models seemingly ‘commissioned’ by major retailers are now available either via that retailer OR direct from the manufacturer (presumably bypassing the major commissioning retailer) - hopefully that doesn’t affect the major commissioning retailer’s ‘cut’ - the price appears to be the same whichever method is chosen. This does seem to be trend (purchase direct on line from manufacturer) - however I don’t see the level of ire and acrimony vented on other companies and whilst I can understand retailers getting annoyed with Hornby’s antics, presumably Hornby has only changed this because web site sales are such that they need to pull back on supply to retailers to ensure they can supply all their direct orders - understandable, however annoying - as they are desperately trying to make a profit. However I just think this is how things are now and as I said earlier in the post - the models I really want, I want guarantee of receiving so web site it is - the alternative is to wait for used sales or hope there will be sales via retailers later (of unsold stock) - that seems unlikely if the models are over-subscribed in the first place. It will be no different when the PWM project becomes available for order - whichever method (direct or retailer) delivers the model I want, that will be the method I choose - I won’t be buying a version of the model I don’t want, on principle just to support the retailer which is doing that part of the offering. It’s interesting this web site is little different from other specialised forums (on completely different subjects). There is a vast amount of advice provided to organisations manufacturing and retailing product - much of it very valuable - some not so much - some a little unrealistic - however on one that i get involved with there was once a major spat between some individuals, the owners of the forum and a major manufacturer (and particularly its CEO) - that manufacturer is still operating very successfully some years later, but it did point out on its own website that the forum concerned represented a fraction of 1 per cent of their market in that country (U.K.), and it was really only half a dozen people with axes to grind that caused this - how much the negative publicity created, who knows. As I say, my approach is as a relatively new re-entrant to railway modelling, but with several friends who have been in it for the long haul - we all have quite different views on buying model railway product.

For class 2 (first headcode digit) passenger trains, the last two digits denote a route/service, and thus all trains on that service have the same headcode, as you’ve noticed. The second digit gives the destination of the service - if internal to the WR it will denote the WR Division, and if external within another BR region, the letter for the region is denoted (eg M = LM region, S = Scottish, O = Southern, V = WR etc). A denotes London on all regions - in this case (a service entirely within the WR) it denotes WR London Division, C denotes Plymouth Division, B denotes Bristol Division. NB the WR Divisional (and regional boundaries) changed in the early and mid 60s. In terms of DMUs operating at Yeovil, two of the AC Cars 4 wheel rail buses operated the Pen Mill to Town (later curtailed to Junction) passenger shuttle from 1964 to 1966, and class 122 single car DMUs took over from 1966, with class 121 appearing also (and generally class 121 operated the Bridport to Maiden Newton service). The one involved were based at Bristol (allocations can be found on railcar.co.uk). The DMUs, Bristol to Weymouth were either class 119 or class 120, three car cross country units. Met Camm class 101s also appeared in the late 70s. Diesel locos used were Warship class (Waterloo to Exeter) based at Plymouth, and class 35s based at Bristol. NB the Cardiff to Portsmouth services were run in the early 60s by new class 123 Inter City DMUs for a couple of years - these later became loco hauled - and by the 70s (if not earlier) by SR class 33s. Class 03 shunters were based at Weymouth, and class 08 were ubiquitous.

Thanks for this @BrushVeteran - having had another look at the Accurascale image I have of 5544, there’s clearly space for a D. However I’m hopeful they’ll do some more versions in due course also. Nice photo btw.

Must be why it was held at the signal - wot no headcode too 😀

Still off topic but in the interests of accuracy…. Lydd is only 26 mins by road from Ashford International station in peak period traffic. That’s slightly more than Manston from Ramsgate or Margate stations - though only a few minutes to the under-construction parkway station - I wonder if they factored in potential local development 🤨 It is correct that both have good road links to London (Lydd is A259/A2070/M20/A20; Manston A299; M2; A2), albeit in very good traffic conditions it’s still an hour from each to the outskirts of London - and then another 30 mins plus to the centre….

I also recall the old closed MR wagon works to the north-east corner of the old Bromsgrove station - I always wondered whether the location was pure co-incidence or whether it was anticipated a lot of locally generated work might be had (incline working etc). Does anyone recall the stabling of locos bound for scrapping in the old loco sidings in Bescot yard (adjacent to the down through line, near the control tower)? I recall Clayton D8572 being parked there for some weeks (ended up at Cashmores, Great Bridge) and D5908 also for a while. I’ve also seen recent photos of D8570 there (blue livery). The barrier vans appear to have performed their desired function here!! The picture of D211 at Ryecroft reminds me how common a sight class 40s were in the Bescot/Walsall/Wolverhampton areas in the mid 60s. My only recollection of seeing Ryecroft in use was in the very early 60s, from the adjoining road and being full of DMUs - the only number I recall was the Cravens parcels unit, M55998. I recall Bescot’s diesel shunter’s were serviced and fuelled there until Bescot’s own diesel facilities were introduced around 1965/6 - must have been quite an interesting journey in an 08/11 or jackshaft drive ex LMS shunter from/to Bescot!

Mansion is quite often in the local south-east news with the local desire to keep it operating, former co-owner of Stagecoach, Ann Gloag bought a majority share in it for £1, vowed to keep it open as an airport, then sold her state out to property developers (see attached link)…… It was somewhat of a joke to be called ‘London’ Manston (also Kent ‘International’) tbh given the travelling time to central London - in the news again this week, there is predicted chaos at Dover this week owing to capacity issues - it appears the emergency arrangements in place post Brexit have expired so Manston’s more recent role as a strategic high capacity lorry holding facility can’t be operated any longer so instead the M20 will be the lorry park again. https://www.insider.co.uk/news/ann-gloag-sells-majority-stake-9870207 Apologies - off topic - I can’t imagine Manston making a good model - long and thin springs to mind 😁

I will thirteenth this!! (I got into strife with someone in the 31 thread asking for pre TOPS blue stuff so I’m fingers crossed here…….. 😁)

Or that the many works visits for maintenance/ overhaul didn’t introduce minor changes across a class, or even embellishments added at sheds. I don’t have any interest in buying either of these models (Dapol or Acc), however to my (relatively) untrained eye they both look undeniably like a Manor and would be good enough for me if I wanted one. Regarding manufacturers and interface with ‘enthusiast’ forums, I’m reminded of, after researching the histories, buying and having renumbered a class 22 diesel (Dapol) and subsequently having then found and read the entire 60 odd page thread on the model on this very forum, and in which the manufacturer was participating - and the machinations over loco numbering and the many detailed differences (beyond the two batches of locos) which were coming to light. I got the impression the maker was in danger of disappearing up their own backside attempting to produce a set of exactly correct variants - but actually achieved an excellent set of models. Suffice it to say my renumbering is slightly incorrect in that at some stage the loco received a slightly modified end following accident damage - at first I was a bit miffed - later I realised that a) every photo I’d ever seen was as per my model b) if it had a slightly altered front I’ve never seen a photo, or conversely if I had I couldn’t tell the difference c) I didn’t really care too much However if the overall model had very fundamental errors I may have cared. So I think whilst it is laudable the lengths that manufacturers go to, and in some cases interface with enthusiasts with a lot of knowledge, say on forums - there can be a point of diminished returns - just look at the current discussion on the SLW class 25 and minor mids to exhaust outlets some locos had!!! None of it will make me change my order for a couple of them - it’s a shame to read some of the comments affecting sales on this very thread.

I’ve just been looking at my spotting book from that day - of the four March 70 withdrawals all were there but E26017 (additionally E26000 was neither at Bury or Reddish). There were certainly more than one grounded body (definitely 35 and 42) - I think it possible either E26005 was intact or it was subsequently re-bogied and taken to Crewe. My trip was 28th August 1969. And yes you’re right re withdrawals - I recall encountering class 24s from the first 20 (D5000-5019) in Basford Hall ‘stored’ - in reality they were dumped and had been cannibalised - this was 5/2/69 - D5001, 9 and 13 were the ones recorded that day (5001 cabbed!!)

The air of decay extended to lines in use as well. The electrified Stour Valley - BNS to Wolverhampton, along which the expresses ran, was lined with cutting sides through Wilson Green which were notable for being strewn with large quantities of household rubbish apparently thrown over the garden fences, in the early 70s. Modern day travellers are greeted with graffiti covered boundary fences/walls instead of the piles of rubbish 🤨 In fact many photos of stations in the 70s and even City Centres are notable for the quantities of rubbish on the ground - I recall it being a big reported local issue in Birmingham - I guess one of the side effects of removing or taking out of use all litter bins (including on public transport) to avoid providing places for the terrorists of the times to leave explosive devices.

The 76s were sent to Crewe for overhaul after Gorton closed (and thus appeared in the early rail blue from 1964 or so) - I’m guessing from this that the 77s never got there but were always dealt with at Reddish? Talking of blue stock, the Midland Pullman sets were stabled at Reddish until the service closed and they were transferred to the WR. I recall in the autumn of 1969 when I visited Reddish, some of the early 76 withdrawals (eg 26005, 35, 42 I think), were boarded up grounded bodies (and IIRC in faded green livery but lacking the E added to the others after 1968). I’m presuming they were broken up on site, eventually. At the same time, two 77s were there, having been moved from store at Bury for the purpose of demoing to the Netherlands Railways people (E27002 and E27004 - blue ones, well at least 27002 was).

As a born and bred Brummie and having lived there until the early 80s, my own personal expedition into railway enthusiasm (and buses) started when I was about 5 - there were several strands to the railway enthusiasm:- 1) My Dad was a very enthusiastic amateur footballer and cricketer - the home ground was in the triangle of railway tracks at Perry Barr junctions so many Saturdays and Sundays involved spending the day there, and seeing the various trains on the three arms of the triangle - we’re talking early 60s so the trains were a mixture:- a) Met Cam 2 car DMUs in multiples of up to 8 cars working BNS to Rugeley TV (curtailed to Walsall owing to Beeching around 1965) - the Met Cams disappeared, to be replaced by the local Ryecroft Park Royal and GRCW twin sets - cascaded as a result of passenger route closures such as that over the South Staffs, Burton/Brownhills to Dudley/Wolverhampton. b) Freight - mostly hauled by Black 5 or 8F but with the occasional standard class 4 or 5, or one of the local ex LNW G2, or LMS/MR 4Fs. Pick up goods with Ivatt 2MT. c) Empty stock (including Eastern Region trains and Southern stock in green) running to/from local carriage depots - locos included Brit class - always a matter of some excitement! d) Sunday diversions from the WCML - mainly class 40 hauled but interspersed with occasional Brit and Stanier Pacifics. At the south western corner of the triangle was a water softening plant, which along with nearly sidings at an SPD depot, contained wagons which never seemed to be moved - until I discovered an 8F shunting the water softener sidings one day (I took a very poor photo of it on my instamatic camera)! The other two corners were also fenced off and contained signal boxes. Things got quite interesting on Sundays in 1965/66 when various electrification trains, usually hauled by 8Fs were present - the first of which was the foundation and concreting train - which had what seemed like a huge auger which would be used to excavate the foundations for the masts - the final train was the wiring train with workers on the flat rooves. Overbridge reconstruction work also happened at adjoining locations in this period - whilst dieselisation at Bescot happened in 1965-6 - using class 40s and 24 largely from the southern end of the WCML (eg Willesden) and a group of class 20s from the same origin and ten brand new class 20s (D8134-43) 2) We lived in Streetly and my other place of railway exposure up to the age of about 9 (extraordinary that such young kids were allowed in those days to wander unaccompanied) was the still open Streetly station and adjoining Sutton Park. The main train of interest to my friends and I was a northbound freight hauled invariably by a Brit pacific which appeared about 1645 - excellent timing for a walk down from school and then time to walk home for a decent time - if we got there early enough we would see a light 4F travelling towards Sutton Park station (by 1963/4 this would become a Derby class 2 - maybe one of the first of the brand new face lifted one, D5233 on - Saltley was partially dieselised in that era). A (very) long walk to Sutton Park station would sometimes reveal an Ivatt 4MT, shunting the sorting office sidings - from Streetly it (and it’s steam plume) was just about visible along the very long long straight through the park - resulting in a lot of excitement that a train was coming - but didn’t (as it disappeared into the sidings again). In the winter, the process was to rush down the wooden access stairs at Streetly and turn on the nearest gas lamp just in time to see the cab side number! And turn it back off and disappear before the station mistress noticed!! This was all fine including the other antics got up to until one sunny afternoon a D9 passed over the railway bridge and I looked up and saw one of the primary school teachers on the top deck clearly looking horrified and making a mental note of the youngsters present……… there followed a day or so later summoning with parents to see the headmaster….. Today’s stream of freight was unheard of on the Sutton Park line then (both Bescot and Washwood Heath yards were very busy - and outlets like the South Staffs would take traffic now running this way) - only the occasional freight would come through (though often hauled by ‘interesting’ locos like Brits) and by the early 60s, a BNS to Walsall DMU service was very sparse. Occasionally, diversions would bring large quantities of trains. For me, the meagre train pickings were supplemented by Walsall Corporation buses (including the first of their new short Fleetlines), and Midland Red buses - new D9s and the prototype 36 ft S16 (this is dated to summer 1962 when it spent a few weeks at Sutton on a tour around the system). 3) Birmingham Snow Hill and the ex WR - early trips with my father to Snow Hill were at the changeover from Kings to Westerns on the increased Paddington expresses (whilst New St was rebuilt) and no soon as they’d arrived, they were gone, replaced by brand new Brush Type 4s (D1682-D1761 batch). We moved house to Handsworth Wood and trips to Snow Hill were easily possible by bus - me and my mates would congregate at the Wolverhampton end so we could get all the through traffic and essentially, the WR (Tyseley) DMUs which terminated in the northern bay platforms (there weren’t any southern ones - that was Moor St station!!!). The sought after single car units (and parcels cars) often stopped there. NB the ex WR DMUs did not spread to the ex LM lines until the later 60s - it was still very much ex LNW, ex GW and ex MR in terms of stock and there was not much in the way of spread - except through Snow Hill where more Black 5s and 8F joined the ex GW and WR standard stock. There was plenty of steam on freight and even some local passenger services. This was a very very busy station - however one group of station signs which always amused me, and I didn’t really understand - ‘wash and brush up’!! It was only when I travelled on a preserved train many years later with my head out of the window and a light coloured jacket on that I understood the point (steam was pretty filthy in quantity at these stations)!! My local spotting ground was the Grand Junction through what is now Hamstead - although much of the local freight was dieselised by the mid 60s, a daily visit by a Birkenhead 9F on Gulf tanks travelling north (empty) from Albion was a highlight. A daily Hymek and influx of NBL Warships after 1967 were spectacular highlights! I also recall being taken to Sutton Coldfield station in the evening peak one day in the early 60s - all of the trains were operated by Monument Lane allocated 3 car Met Camm units (the whole class M50303-20/50321-50338/59114-31 was used on BNS to Sutton/Four Oaks/Lichfield City and separately BNS to Barnt Green/Redditch). BNS became a hugely interesting place after reconstruction - to a youngster symbolising the modern and new in Birmingham - which was exciting to go with the music and other social elements at the time - Peak class (often in early rail blue on one side of the station) and classes AL1-6 on expresses on the other (these all had blue and grey stock, everything except the restaurant cars and BGs being brand new). And new AM10 units in pairs on the Euston semi fasts (which stopped at a large number of stations - good for train spotters as they had a lower top speed and if you kneeled on the front seats you could look out of the front of the train)! But as others have mentioned, we received the pretty dreadful AM4s for some local services - our relatively comfortable Park Royal twin sets on the Walsall service (I never did get why the relatively well off from Hagley, Solihull, Knowle and Dorridge were provided by the WR with non toilet fitted suburban units compared with the ‘cross country’ equivalent spec of the Met Camms, Park Royals etc on the ex LNW - the ex MR got the similar BRCW and absolute bone shaker Cravens (keep out of the motor car at all costs!!!). The AM4s were really dusty internally - once bounced off the seats travelling on one the cloud of dust on a sunny day had to be seen to be believed - they were also pretty noisy - generally feeling worn out - but 4 cars instead of two!! I recall the first services were run by lined green, syp 022. Other local locations frequented in teenage years were Bromford Bridge (closed but still extant and accessible station on the BNS to Derby and Leicester line just the Derby side of Washwood Heath sidings) - streams of heavy Midland Division freights (class 44; 27 (in pairs); 47; 45; 25; 20 (in pairs); NE/SW expresses (45; 46; 47); Norwich trains (class 31 - usually one of the updated 1600 hp); DMUs to Leicester and Derby (BRCW 3 car; Cravens 3 car). The 11 Outer Circle bus stopped right next to the old station so easily accessible and a nice ride to/from home on a Birmingham CT Guy, Daimler, Crossley or one of the new Fleetlines. And Bescot - my first visits there were in the steam/diesel changeover days - I vividly remember 8Fs dragging heavy freights north towards Walsall then turning very sharp left up a stiff incline to cross over the Wolverhampton line towards Dudley and Stourbridge - often with much pyrotechnics from the slipping. There were also several jackshaft drive diesel shunters in the yard in those days (12004-12033) - I recall 12013 was a regular - and who could forget the handful of antique looking (as a child I always thought they looked menacing with the lack of front number plate and method of keeping the smoke box door shut) ex LNW 0-8-0s!! I really liked the replacement class 40s, 47s and the 24/25/20s. I was particularly taken with the early blue locos (D7661-77 and the bizarre fashion repaints, D5021 and 5028). I’ll stop wittering for a bit haha!! We were spoilt for choice to be honest - another was a trip over to the Trent Valley to see the ‘eleckies’ travelling at 100 mph on expresses was also a highlight (with parents and younger brother by car to a convenient level crossing - say Coton north of Tamworth).

Looks like it went via the Kings Heath line from Kings Norton via Lifford East and Bordesley to regain the Midland route north at Landore St/Saltley.

The AL6/86 have a handrail across the front, under the windscreen so staff are presumably allowed to climb on the front to clean the windscreens - whilst nowhere near as ‘mountainous’ and high from the ground as dealing with, say the same job on a Deltic, is there a chance someone may use a ladder to to this and potentially get into the danger zone? I remember several incidents of rail workers being killed or seriously injured in the late 60s and reported in the local newspapers in the Midlands, but my recollection is these were generally in sidings/yards/depots and involved hauled stock. Also there have been flashovers caused by activities at overbridges resulting in deaths. Presumably accessing the roof of an AC locomotive was forbidden except in controlled locations in depots, unlike steam locos and some diesels where provision was made for staff to climb all over them (in the case of steam) and via access steps to roof mounted features on some diesels.

Notice it also has a red buffer beam (and the electric blue loco doesn’t appear to have a yellow panel either). The first few of both the Doncaster and Vulcan locos were delivered like this (E3101 etc and E3161 etc) - after the first few delivered like this, the buffer beams were rail blue and they had small yellow panels from new. The first ones were retrofitted with the small yellow panels quite quickly. Back to class 77, the attached link shows 27002 on a train of blue and grey coaches - the loco certainly looks more rail blue than electric blue (or Nanking blue) to me - however film reproduction is notoriously unreliable with some colours. There are quite a number of photos of blue class 77s on line. However given the 76s received rail blue in the same style (red buffer beam, small yellow panel, late BR totem logo) in that era, it would seem odd for the 77s to receive a different type of blue. https://www.ebay.ie/itm/273885524518