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An 8 foot diameter helix ? That is BIG ! I have a 4 foot diameter helix that rises a bit over 18 inches on 6 turns & my experience with my fleet is along these lines, including from standing starts part way up: Heljan 47s - 7-10 coach trains & 20+ wagon Speedlink type freights - no problem Bachmann 47s - same Bachmann 37s - Don't seem to be quite as sure footed as the 47s in general, most of them seem to have some up/down play in the bogies in terms of the angle they sit at on the track, but most of them are ok with the same size loads Vitrains 37s & 47s - Don't seem to handle quite the same heavy loads as the others, but 7/8 coach trains ok Bachmann 2 x 20s with ~24 HAAs with weights added - don't notice the slope at all Bachmann 25s - definitely less pulling power, no problems with a pair of them together Hornby 56 & same HAAs - all just fine Hornby 31s with 20+ wagons - no problems It gets a little more interesting with the Lima 47s, the ones i have modified with improved pickups, extra weight do ok with reasonable length trains. I haven't tried the with the weighted HAA rakes, but they do ok with 7 coach trains. The un-modified 47s are a bit hit and miss, some of them do ok on the helix with medium length trains, others aren't so happy. For a laugh one day i took a resurrected Hornby 25 and tried that, it struggled to get up there on its own ! Overall, most of what i have for locos handle the helix just fine. The track on the curves is all Hornby 3rd & 4th radius curves (I did try flexi track initially and quickly abandoned that idea). I also have power feeds onto every level which i think makes a difference. I like to run long trains, so 7-10 coaches for passenger/mail, 24 or so HAAs, ~30 16 tonners, 20+ Speedlink wagons and overall issues with trains going up are few and far between, most of what I have handles it just fine. I would imagine an 8ft helix would be gentler on the loco than what I have. Hope that helps some :-)

I had the same scenario, i laid track and then turned my attention to where to put signal boxes and yes indeedy, found myself looking at a couple of spots where the I would like to put the boxes but would be in between running lines and sidings. I moved one sidings back and curved it a bit, but it still felt a little tight. Then I remembered pictures of Westbury before the resignaling & went hunting for photos online - check these out: check it out from the South side, even tighter !

I can only share my own experience - I suspect based on what I read that my experience is a minority experience, but it does sound like it is a sizeable minority... My own first experience purchasing was good, it only went downhill on the 2nd & 3rd orders. Is the customer "not always right" when they follow up on posting only to be told in an unpleasant fashion that parcel had been mailed - and then a week later it shows up with a readable postmark dated several days AFTER the unpleasant exchange? Is it the customer being "not always right" that causes the abusive nature of the communications ? Is it so wrong for a customer to say "... you said it would be mailed by...." ?. It does sound like a lot of the nasty episodes come from trying to hold mr. modelmaster to his own promises. Abusive ? Plain nasty is also an appropriate term. Is the customer "not always right" when they just don't receive the goods they have paid for ? I - and the many others - can only share our own experiences. Be informed - make your own choices - own those choices if/when they have non-positive outcomes - hopefully they don't

Perhaps we have all gotten used to ebay's habit of slow incremental changes that all make ebay harder to use, so that when finally we have a big leap downwards in usability after many small ones, we're just kind of used to the overall downwardness and don't react much because we're used to it.. In recent times i've been noticing a big drop off in OO gauge related stuff being listed anyway, at least the sort of things i'm interested in, so my attention and interest has been drifting away for some time. To go from looking infrequently now to not at all really isn't much of an impact or a loss. I remember and miss the personal connections that you'd make back in the early days. I wonder what will replace ebay.... ?

The orders I never received the goods paid for and was on the receiving end of his abuse were for transfers only, not nameplates. There are bad experiences that you can forgive and forget as '---- happens', others that you might bear in mind for a year or two and take your money elsewhere during that time... but if you have ever been on the receiving end of the sheer nastiness that this guy is capable of throwing out when he chooses, then you will never, EVER do business with this guy again. That is my personal experience, and it doesn't sound like i am alone in that. My first order was just fine, my second got a snotty reply to an email but i received the goods, the 3rd received a promise of posting but when i followed up a week later became sheer nastiness - how dare i expect him to honour his word, etc... Twice he told me that he had mailed my order only for the postmark to show that was not true, the orders only being posted several days AFTER I followed up. I never did receive everything I ordered in that last one. There are lots of crappy vendors out there, but there are FEW that engender the strength of feeling that mr. modelmaster is capable of causing in people.

Perhaps Modelmaster deserves its own pinned "Cautionary Note for Customers" thread in this forum ?

You are not alone in never receiving goods you've ordered and paid for.

I am hoping to find a Hornby class 31 body, the super detail kind. Livery & condition unimportant, I need a source of spare parts for the ones I've repainted - mainly handrails, windshield wipers, a few bits of glazing. A broken or mazak-ed one would likely do, though if i end up with a reasonable one in BR Blue or later (boiler filler & cab side steps filled in) I could repaint it & swap out one of the Skinheads - i seem to have ended up with too many Skinheads. Happy to pay a reasonable price, not looking for a freebie :-)

All good - found one on ebay :-) Thanks to everyone who took the trouble to read the post !

Wondering if anyone has one of these that they don't need any more.... One of these: https://www.hattons.co.uk/272458/bachmann_branchline_44_011x_gwr_type_7_signal_box_truro_limited_edition_for_kernow_model_rail_centre/stockdetail.aspx Thanks :-)

oh, there's other threads about him too. There always seems to be deaths in the family, major health incidents, dearly beloved dogs dying, yada yada yada - whatever he thinks will make you go away. Persist and the next response is abuse, then beyond that kiss the rest of your order goodbye. I would rate cooper craft as being the slightly more moral of the two retailers here.

That was a great little video, really enjoyed watching it Nice looking layout !

Quite the interesting post & thread ! 10 years ago i would probably have gone "yeah, right...." and clicked on - but then in recent times we've had the likes of FTG, Cavalex, Accurascale, SLW.... All of them examples of "the little loco that could", so anything is possible. For me, the big thing is that I am spending very little money on locos and stock these days and 3/4 of that is down to the prices that prevail these days (PLEASE - let us NOT go into that black-hole-for-topics-here) - you cite "Budget" end of the spectrum, if there were for example a new Class 47 in the range £75-£85 i would buy, and in quantity. I model to recreate the "old friends" I remember from my time by the lineside, so if I can afford more I will create more. At £135 a loco i buy 1, sometimes 2 new locos a year. At £150 a loco I don't buy. Those thresholds are as much psychogical as budgetry. Could you do, for example, Duffs in the range of £75-£100 ? In terms of "Budget" I would hope to see a comparable-ish drive train to the competitors, front end and cab door handrails, correct details for flush cab fronts & 'Crewe-cuts', windshield wipers, correct boiler ports, and just generally looking like a Duff by today's standards. All the other finicky little stuff that either falls off or you can't figure out how to attach - totally optional. That would be my definition of "Budget". Hornby's Class 47s with the Lima body and 5-pole motor are a little lacking I think. The price point is right, but the product is a little lacking. As others have said, many things are covered with not-too-bad existing models these days so net new models are diminishing in possibilities. Making a name for yourself may involve pulling the rug out from under existing manufacturers - hat tip to Accurascale there :-) I do not envy you in trying to pick the right plan to start with, but i do salute Accurascale, KR Models, etc,, for having computed the same variables and made it work ! So, your questions..... Q1 - I think i have answered above Q2 - I would suggest a mix of steam & diesel models. In the small UK Modellers group where i live in Western Canada the member ship is 90% steam focused. Having said that, being predominantly older gents I am not sure many of them are still adding to their collections, at least not in quantity. Some locos like the GWR Pannier tank, Bullied Pacifics, LNER A1s/A3s/A4s, LMS princesses & Ducheses are just "Iconic" and would maybe have reach beyond the scope of folks who read this forum. For diesels, I like Duffs - did i mention that already ? Q3 - Class 47 - even with Heljan having a go, there are so many liveries and variations that manufacturers could complete simultaneously. - Class 31 could benefit from something in between Hornby's railroad & super-detailed ranges - 114 & 127 DMUs - iconic and not done - could you make tooling that would accommodate the roller blinds for the DPU variant ? - Trans-Pennine/Intercity DMUs - having seen how things like the Blue Pullman & APT-E have succeeded, I can't help feeling that those iconic DMUs could score the same results - GWR The Great Bear. I am not 100% up on the steam scene, has this been done ? If not I would buy one :-) - Class 45 - I am hopeful of the new Heljan effort, but if it doesn't pan out I will still respond (i.e. Buy) if another entrant appears Q4 - If someone were able to produce Mk.2B and Mk.2C variants side by side I think they would do well. If the paint colour and overall bodyshape matched the Bachmann Mk.2A then the mix'n'match potential would sell more units. I hope that is helpful, at least a little :-)

It has been a little while here, so just wondering... those CO2 tanks still en-route ? Three of these are still high on my (now short) list of things i would love to have on my railway :-)

Me personally... waiting :-) My inclination is to go for a couple of the Heljan ones when they appear. I haven't pre-ordered anything, I would like to wait and see - gauge the reaction when they hit the streets... Price is also a factor - the ~£145 price point quoted by Hattons is something I will pay for a decent Peak or two, but if it heads much further north of that it might end up being just one, or even none. I don't want to rekindle the eternal debate and associated jihad about prices, but suffice it to say I buy a lot less new locos than i used to a few years ago. I am inclined towards the Heljan one over the Bachmann one for a few reasons, mainly down to viewing the Bachmann Peak as basically the 'more of the same', just a tweak of an existing design, whereas I am *hoping* the Heljan one turns out to be a 'next-generation' thing. The existing Bachmann Peak chassis is also a factor for me. I have a pair of Replica Peaks i have put on Bachmann chassis plus a few other Bachy Peaks that have been stalled as projects for a while now, waiting for either a new coat of paint or to finish tweaking the noses. I find the chassis on all of these are a little fussy or cantankerous in terms of running quality. I don't think the Peak mechanism is up to the standard of the Bachmann 47 or 20 in terms of running qualities so that does count against it for me (and i am assuming Mr. Bachmann is not changing that part of the model)- will the Heljan one be a step above that, in my eyes and on my layout at least ? The prospect of upgraded Peaks, of either flavour, has also rather sapped the drive to carry on with those reno projects I have to admit ! If the Heljan one or even the Bachy one are 'that good', then the various unfinished ones may find their way onto ebay at some stage, or end up being given away. We'll see... like i said, I am choosing to be in wait mode :-)

If at first the item doesn't sell.... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203144659994?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2546137.m43663.l10137 Relist it at a higher price ! https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bachmann-38-146-29-Tonne-ZRA-Sliding-Door-Box-Van-CM-EE-Blue-Yellow-Weathered/203152771580 i am sure there is a logic in there somewhere...

Wow - thank you @Suzie, @KDG, @cravensdmufan, @Grizz ! I was not expecting insight and a solution when i mentioned the problem with the 56, that is great. I just had a look at the 56 in question and the coupling mechanism at each end does stick sometimes in one direction when i move it from side to side, I think you've put me on to a good path here ! I think we have some graphite in the "useful tub" leftover from a problem with the lock on the front door, i shall give that a go

Interesting timing for me on this question, i have a 23'x x 10' layout on two levels with a helix, the main level being in the shape of a big "U". The main curves are either 3rd & 4th radius settrack ones, or larger with flexitrack. After having laid the track and then spent ~a year proving the track (and making countless tweaks and adjustments) i am now at the stage where i'm pulling out whole rakes of wagons & coaches and test running them with different types of locos. Heljan / Hornby (newer) / Bachmann / Vitrains diesels with 8-12 RTR coaches - no problems when using the coaches with the standard couplings. I've had to pay some attention to loosening the screws holding bogies on for some of the Bachmann coaches, but overall no major problems with coaching stock. Wagons though... one of the rakes i currently have out on test is a set of older Hornby MGRs. For these, re-wheeling is an absolute must. I haven't glued up one of the pivot points as others frequently suggest, yet... i likely will. My staging loops will hold a loco plus 22 HAAs but I've also been running trains of 30+ just for the heck of it. Weight is an issue for sure. Trains will run round and round without problems for the most part, but as soon as the smallest glitch arises things come off the rails. Right now the rake is running with 1 or 2 marbles in each wagon and it is much more stable this way. What gets me more about the MRG rakes is the couplings though - why oh why will a Hornby 56 not play nice with a rake of Hornby MGRs ! All the ones I've tried so far seem determined to rip the first hopper off the rails every time the train starts round a 4th radius curve !! It is definitely a coupling thing because pairs of Bachmann 20s, Heljan/Vi/Bachy 47s are all no problem coupling wise. All the other rakes of wagons I've been experimenting with have issues which are a combination of couplings (combinations of different types) and weight, but with a bit of experimenting - changing what wagons with which couplings are next to which, and adding extra weights on top or inside of wagons when they fall off - then i'm eventually getting them stable and consistent. A lot of my wagons are Parkside & Cambrian kits, but basically the same factors apply to both kit-built and RTR. Overall, I'd say that full length trains are totally doable, but perhaps require a little bit of 'fine tuning' to get to the point of them being reliable runners.

So the 45s are expected after the 25s.... and the 25s are expected after the 86s..... .... i was just waiting for someone to say that the 86s were now expected after the 45s !! It will be whenever the arrive, i know that. No surprise really that exerything going on in the world around us is having an effect on delivery plans. Oh well, regardless of when they arrive i still plan to buy a pair. Maybe it is the universe's way of prodding me to finish the scenics on at least one of the baseboards so he new ladies truly look the part when they arrive :)

Well September has now been and gone and Hattons' website for one is still saying "....between July 2020 & September 2020" - have i missed any updates on when ?

From my memory and records the folks above are right... the original LMS BG test train was replaced ~1981 with the pool of MK.1 stock Stovepipe quotes. By November 1988 the test train was down to 7 of those coaches, as seen here: Sometime in late summer/autumn 1988 two former barrier coaches moved from Old Oak to join the test train, ADB977333 and ADB977334. They sat in Doncaster West Yard for some months though before actually moving into the test train rake: If any one has any more pictures of those two I would love to see them :-) In this pic from 1990 you can tell those two former barriers apart from the other seven by the dirt - less of it: By 1991 those two were starting to blend in with the overall dirt theme, and the rake was down to 8 coaches - looking closely it may be one of those barriers that went as there appears to be only one obvious BSK in the rake now: If you are going to model the test train you might want to consider the graffiti ! Where the test train was parked south of Doncaster station seemed a bit isolated and tagging was frequent by the look of it. By the early '90s it seemed like the efforts to paint it out were becoming less frequent

oh lordy, isn't that the truth !

I'm going to give Helixes a thumbs up :-) My layout is about 23' x 10' in the shape of a big "U" with double track forming a continuous run around the inside and the outside of the "U", that makes for about 100' long run on each track. On one side of the "U" there is a junction with double track heading off towards the middle of the baseboard then curving round and heading up to pass over the main lines as they double back, then it joins the helix and spirals down to the storage layer below. It is 4 ft diameter with the up line on the outside of the helix, down line on the inside. Loco and train wise, Hornby 56s, Bachmann 47s and pairs of 20s have no problem storming up, or even creeping up, with rakes of 24 HAAs with some temporary weights in the wagons. Hornby 50s, Bachy 47s & 37s handle 10 coach trains no problem Heljan 47s barely notice whatever load you put on them. Bachmann 25s.... slip some on the heaviest loads. Heljan 33s can do 7 coach mk2 rakes no problem, still an open verdict on longer/heavier freights. Even some of my Lima 47s can do it - the re-motored ones with extra weights are just fine. Upgraded ones with the original motor but more weights and pickups do ok too. Of the original 47s, it is a bit hit and miss. For practical hauling concerns, the helix works well. It has blended into the overall operation of the layout (pics are from a while back, all track laying is finished and trains are running around it all now) and it works. I can bring a train up, run it around a few times then into a loop or siding while i bring another up... next train i can turn around by a diagonal link line across the middle of the main board then route it back down the helix to storage again, while bringing another up to hold at signals on the main layout until i do something with the one before it. Couplings are a killer issue though, and to a lesser extent weighting of wagons. I am finding where there is real mismatch in height f couplings within a train then it is a recipe for derailment, usually at the bottom of the helix. Overly light wagons contribute to this by deleting even easier. I haven't tried it with 3 link couplings yet.... but i do plan to soon :-) Yeah, overall i would recommend a helix. Be prepared to do a fair bit of fiddling and adjusting, but worth the effort. Here's a few pics of mine from when it was under construction. Construction was nowhere near as bad as I expected. A friend with skills in woodworking helped me with this, each circle is in three parts and is cut by hand from stencils marked on plywood sheets - the sides are not perfectly circular, but good enough. These are screwed at each end onto wooden cross pieces that are supported on the metal screw rods, their heights being adjustable as they sit on washers & screws. Hardest part was the track laying - initially i was going to go with flexitrack but after getting one circle done i gave up on that and ordered 5 complete circles of Hornby 3rd and 4th radius double curves, that reduced the flexitrack to just some short sections at the top and the bottom. The total height gain is ~18 inches - just enough space i figured i would need if i ever had to crawl underneath with a soldering iron to fix something !! Down below there is an 11 track storage yard that has sidings that vary in length, the longest holding 10-11 coach trains plus loco or 24 HAA hoppers plus a pair of 20s. From the storage yard there is a return line that loops round 180' and returns to the This was the slowest part of the layout as i spent about a year testing the reliability of the yard and helix - testing, testing, fixing things, testing, tweaking things and then some more testing - that is the single biggest point i would recommend to anyone planning a 2 level layout, test the snot out of the lower levels before you put the top boards in place. Here's the lower yard & helix while i was waiting for the Hornby 3rd & 4th curves to arrive Lower yard has enough clearance for me to stick my head and shoulders under. Lighting is from one of those el-cheapo 5m long strips of LED lights you can get on ebay. I had originally planned on installing two but one turned out to cast all the light needed down below

I have to agree with Sam and most of the other posters so far, those models mentioned were pretty darn good for their day and don't look embarrassing or out of place on a layout amidst today's 'usual suspects'. The 47 would be top of my list. With some work to the cab handrails, a repaint and hacking off the D-couplings and maybe some better glazing, they hold their own with the Heljan, Bachmann & VI Duffs. I sold a few of mine in the last 10 years but have kept the majority and am slowly working my way through re-motoring with either CD type motors or Vi chassis. If opportunity presented at the right price, I would pick up more for repaint projects.

Yeah.... it may be bold :-) 10 years ago i would probably buy roughly a new loco a month, now it is maybe one a year. Hattons' website says ~145 pounds.. if that close-ish, then yes. If it turns out to be significantly north of that £170 then we'll have to see.... .... of course, if i win the lottery then i will just buy Heljan the company :-)