Hornby B12

[orford]

I think the talk here about wheels is perhaps a tad premature.  If you study the pre-production photos which are clearly of a 3D printed mock up, it is quite obvious that Hornby have put it onto the wheels from an old Triang Hornby B12 - presumably just to get something into print by way of a pre-announcement.

 

My sources at Sandwich assure me that it will have much finer and much more accurate scale wheels by the time it eventually hits the shops. Will be a more or less identical technical specification to the recent D16/3.

 

Let's cut the guys a bit of slack here. They've obviously busted a gut to get an early announcement out. Give them time to develop the thing properly and I don't think that we will be disappointed.

[orford]

 

Here's another couple of pre-production pictures - bear in mind it will NOT have the wheels shown here (which are from the old model).  Note the LNER version has the covered front steam pipes, whereas the BR version does not - as per prototype.....although these look wrong to me, more like the inaccurate ones on the old Triang model than those on the prototypes.

Edited December 28, 2015 by orford

[russ p]

Those transferred to the Northern Scottish Area were painted black lined red at Inverurie when shopped there. During WW2 they were all painted plain black. After WW2 the Scottish-based locomotives were re-painted in lined green whilst those south of the border, with one exception, were given lined black livery.

 

And then there is the retention/removal of the brass beading and whether or not the Stratford round smokebox door ring was retained and so the various detail differences that date specific locomotives multiply...

Were any apple green with British railways on the tender as the one on the NNR is?

[orford]

Were any apple green with British railways on the tender as the one on the NNR is?

 

Russ - Inverurie painted some 20 of its B12s in this livery after WWII but Stratford just one, so most of them were in Scotland. BUT - unfortunately none of the are even remotely correct for the Hornby version. All of the Scottish B12's were of the small boilered variety with Belpaire fireboxes, of which nine were subesquently rebuilt with a round topped firebox but still retained the much smaller boiler. At least four of these also ran attached to redundant B17 tenders later in their lives - but still in the apple green 'British Railways' livery.

 

By way of examples, the former included 61552 and 61539, whilst 61507 was one of the latter.

 

The boiler was VERY different (and very obviously different visually), being MUCH smaller and without the characteristic straight 'cut off' below the smoke box door which is so obvious on the B12/3, as being produced by Hornby. There were also several other noticable detail differences as well, so you would need a pretty severe model rebuild to produce one which you could justify in that livery.

 

So unfortunately, the short answer to your question is "no".

 

Having said that, there were certainly some B12/3s (as Hornby) painted lined black with BRITISH RAILWAYS in full on the tender - for example 61565, 61556 and 61533.

 

It is also worth mentioning that only a very few B12/3s ever received the final 'late' BR crest on the tender, examples which did being 61580 and 61572.

 

Some also remained in unlined black after the war with the early crest, for example 61514, which was never lined right up to withdrawal.

 

It is very dangerous to rely on preservation examples of any locomotive as there is a regrettable (to me) tendency to paint many of them in liveries which they never actually carried in service, simply because the owner likes it! OK - it's his engine, so he can paint it yellow with pink spots if he wants to ....but it doesn't help when producing a model.

Edited December 28, 2015 by orford

[Hroth]

Sorry pal but in your rush to tell everyone to cut the manufacturers a bit of slack, you have overlooked that it has already been determined on this thread that the wheels on the mock-up are the new production wheels. The wheels on the grey image above are correct with larger bosses and spokes correctly flared into the boss. Shame the same attention hasn't been applied to the bogie wheels, but these are easily replaced.

 

The original wheels can be seen on the image below...

WEB original B12.jpg

Considering that the blue livery B12 was the last iteration of the venerable Triang B12, introduced in 1962, apart from the ghastly tongue sticking out under the smokebox door, and that blue livery,  for a 50 year old* design its not a "bad" representation of a B12/3.  At least the wide wheels and flangeless centre drivers of the Triang original had long gone and it had finer connecting rods and handrails.

 

 But I AM looking forward to the introduction of the new version.

 

Hubba Hubba!!!

 

 

* I counted on my fingers - the blue B12 came out in about 2012.  Half a century in production.  Eeep!!!

[stewartingram]

Having realised a few years ago that my original CKD B12 had got lost (temporarily I might add), I picked up a new but faulty blue one,for a tenner, at Ally Pally exhibition. Cost me zero to repair - a stripped gearwheel which I had in stock. I then found the original one (which is the proverbial hammer with new heads and handles over the years), and was able to compare the two. Blue - excellent runner, a vast improvement over the old X04 with 20:1 gears (and I am very much a fan of the X04 too). Wire handrails, not moulded. Finer flanges. And still got DC sound fitted in the tender too! (sandpaper strip for the uninitiated. That unprototypical blue livery has to stay though, it is gorgeous. In my parallel universe, it is the shed "pet", which has been adorned because it hauls the Royal train  occasionally, just like the pair of green Clauds in the 50s. Rule 1, err, rules! 

I shall certainly get a new B12 next year, but the blue ones stays, and as the original old one was my 1st "layout" loco I purcsed (as opposed to trainset), I'm keeping that. They both run fine on code 75, and my feedback controller tames them so why not.

 

Stewart

Edited December 28, 2015 by stewartingram

[WD0-6-0]

To my eyes the wheels on the 3D printed loco look nothing like the CAD images, the balance weights appear different for a start. (The bogie wheels look the same) this is only my opinion

[31A]

Considering that the blue livery B12 was the last iteration of the venerable Triang B12, introduced in 1962, apart from the ghastly tongue sticking out under the smokebox door, and that blue livery,  for a 50 year old* design its not a "bad" representation of a B12/3.  At least the wide wheels and flangeless centre drivers of the Triang original had long gone and it had finer connecting rods and handrails.

 

 But I AM looking forward to the introduction of the new version.

 

Hubba Hubba!!!

 

 

* I counted on my fingers - the blue B12 came out in about 2012.  Half a century in production.  Eeep!!!

 

Apart from being not a scale model - too short, and boiler too small!  But as you say, OK by the standards of the time and quite highly regarded when it first came out.

 

I also had a CKD one (which my father repainted into LNER green with HumbroI and Kingsprint dry transfers), and I also bought a Chinese one, one of the first in LNER green (from R&D Models in Cambridge), and was impressed by the finish, and wire handrails.  However this turned to disappointment when I put it on the rails; poor performance due to pick up from only 4 wheels, and what seemed to be a poor motor and / or gear ratio (which may have been improved since).  Given that it was never going to be a scale model, I put it back in its box and put it down to experience!

 

 

So, very happy that a new one is to be produced to modern standards!

[Guest]

To my eyes the wheels on the 3D printed loco look nothing like the CAD images, the balance weights appear different for a start. (The bogie wheels look the same) this is only my opinion

I believe (don't quote me on it) the 3D printed model has been fitted with wheels out of the spares-bins from Hornby, likewise for the bogie and tender. Not meant to be entirely accurate to the B12 as such, but helps to sell the 3D printed version.

[WD0-6-0]

I believe (don't quote me on it) the 3D printed model has been fitted with wheels out of the spares-bins from Hornby, likewise for the bogie and tender. Not meant to be entirely accurate to the B12 as such, but helps to sell the 3D printed version.

That was the impression I got so I don't see why there is such a fuss about those wheels and why people seem so sure that these are going to be the production wheels?

[orford]

Larry Makes a fair point about the wheels and no - I had not looked hard enough at the pictures (my apologies, Larry) - but I was still told by a friend at Hornby that the production model will have 'better' wheels. Let's just wait and see - after all, the thing is still a year away yet. It's a pretty pointless argument to be having at this early stage.

 

Meantime, whilst the original Triang version was indeed too short and boiler too small, no-one has yet mentioned that its body also sat/sits some 2.5mm too high on it's chassis, in order to clear it's motor. It was probably this more than anything which gave it its top-heavy appearance.

 

But things could be done with it for all that if you were prepared to live with the short length.........here's mine as currrently running on Orford. It began life as a Chinese 'blue' and is fitted with a Portescap RG4 in the original white metal Triang chassis (after much filing out of the block), enabling me to lower the thing to the correct height. I did change the bogie wheels (Markits) although the drivers remain the original Chinese version ones. 

 

The 'shortness' remains obvious...as does the unsightly 'skirt' under the boiler - but it'll do until the new one arrives, after which it will no doubt find its way onto my scrap yard diorama!

 

It can be seen in action here (9 minute video clip) if anyone is interested....  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNaGisprWyc

Edited December 29, 2015 by orford

[31A]

Larry Makes a fair point about the wheels and no - I had not looked hard enough at the pictures (my apologies, Larry) - but I was still told by a friend at Hornby that the production model will have 'better' wheels. Let's just wait and see - after all, the thing is still a year away yet. It's a pretty pointless argument to be having at this early stage.

 

Meantime, whilst the original Triang version was indeed too short and boiler too small, no-one has yet mentioned that its body also sat/sits some 2.5mm too high on it's chassis, in order to clear it's motor. It was probably this more than anything which gave it its top-heavy appearance.

 

But things could be done with it for all that if you were prepared to live with the short length.........here's mine as currrently running on Orford. It began life as a Chinese 'blue' and is fitted with a Portescap RG4 in the original white metal Triang chassis (after much filing out of the block), enabling me to lower the thing to the correct height. I did change the bogie wheels (Markits) although the drivers remain the original Chinese version ones. 

 

The 'shortness' remains obvious...as does the unsightly 'skirt' under the boiler - but it'll do until the new one arrives, after which it will no doubt find its way onto my scrap yard diorama!

 

It can be seen in action here (9 minute video clip) if anyone is interested....  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNaGisprWyc

 

That certainly makes a nice looking engine!  I hadn't considered the height issue, although realise that Triang rolling stock usually had the buffers set too high to allow for the coupling hook.

[coachmann]

Orford has made a fair job of making that original B12 model very acceptable within the limitation of the moulding. The worst part of this body is the running plate where the step up is far too shallow. It was all part of Triang's weird idea of maintaining a buffer height far above scale, afterall, Hornby Dublo had managed to produce models with the correct buffer height since before the war.

Edited December 29, 2015 by coachmann

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

But then again the Triang system was a pure toy, and the clearance under the buffer beam for the huge coupling hook allowed for operation onto the step change to a 1 in 15 gradient as produced by their pier system!

 

The best element of the old B12 was the tender body, a neatly moulded near scale item worth working on. By sawing out the 2mm of extra frame above the spring hangers, and reattaching the body a good model resulted, ready to be combined with a B17 or other appropriate Stratford design.

[Hroth]

As I understand it, the reason for the raised buffer height was to provide vertical space for the leading bogie to enable the locomotive to ascend sharp inclines within the confines of a 6x4 baseboard layout.  Many track plans had a flyover loop to add play content, a concept that was all the rage back in the mists of time. 

 

Of course, nowadays we don't do such things......

[orford]

As I understand it, the reason for the raised buffer height was to provide vertical space for the leading bogie to enable the locomotive to ascend sharp inclines within the confines of a 6x4 baseboard layout.  Many track plans had a flyover loop to add play content, a concept that was all the rage back in the mists of time. 

 

Of course, nowadays we don't do such things......

 

And that was mainly down to Cyril Freezer's plan books. I met him decades ago at the old UMIST Manchester show and he positively deluged me with fanatacism & spittle about how wonderful it was to have trains (and I quote) "popping in and out of little tunnels all over the place".  That was one of the best lessons I ever learned about model railways and from that day I vowed never to do it. And thankfully, I never have.

 

But he was a character for all that and did much for the hobby.

[coachmann]

And that was mainly down to Cyril Freezer's plan books. I met him decades ago at the old UMIST Manchester show and he positively deluged me with fanatacism & spittle about how wonderful it was to have trains (and I quote) "popping in and out of little tunnels all over the place".  

We might even have met then at UMIST.  I used to meet up with a regular gang that included Cyril Freezer, Smokey Bourne, George Mellor, 'Steve' Stratten, and others. From those pre-Xmas gatherings was derived a New Year editorial, as Cyril was an attentive listener as well haha...

[orford]

We might even have met then at UMIST.  I used to meet up with a regular gang that included Cyril Freezer, Smokey Bourne, George Mellor, 'Steve' Stratten, and others. From those pre-Xmas gatherings was derived a New Year editorial, as Cyril was an attentive listener as well haha...

 

We probably did, Larry.  I encountered Cyril again many years later when he was Editor of the Swiss Railway Society magazine (I was a member) and to be fair to the guy, he was always great company.

[Old Tearaway]

Belpaire version would have had a wider period and geographic range, arguably.

In the Railway Modeller February 1974 issue, in Junior Modeller, the author has a converted Triang Hornby LNER B12 with Belpaire firebox mentioned and in one of the photographs. If I remember right, he used diagrams from the Model Railway Constructor from a 1971 issue. 

[Hroth]

Latest Hattons crystal ball prognostication (LNER Apple Green):  Mid September 2016.

[Hroth]

New prognostication.  Hattons now advising R3430 as arriving on or after the 29th December 2016.

[Black 5 Bear]

New prognostication.  Hattons now advising R3430 as arriving on or after the 29th December 2016.

The Hornby website also confirms the above date. In effect, this will be another product delayed until 2017 !

[Hroth]

Well, at least it gives a little time to recover from the excesses of the Hattons Hornby sale!

[MGR Hooper!]

http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/news/the-engine-shed/creating-a-minature-world-with-a-decorated-b12/

[SRman]

That BR one really looks very nice. I have a soft spot for the B12, in spite of it having no place on my current layout: my first "large" steam loco as a teenager (a couple of centuries ago!!) was a Triang B12, which, while nowhere near modern standards, was not a bad model.

I suspect the retail price of the new model will deter me from buying one, but the temptation will be there, for me.