Oxford Rail - LNER Cattle Wagon

[Dunsignalling]

Quick question guys. I've got a few Hornby cattle wagons but for variety I was thinking of adding a couple of these to the rake. But would one have ventured on to the souther region?

 

Big james

Strictly, no, because the 9' wheelbase ones (as produced by Oxford) were probably extinct by 1948 and, if not, so soon afterward that they wouldn't have received BR livery.

 

The 10' wheelbase versions definitely did, there are also photos of them on the WR way down in Cornwall.

 

I've yet to decide if my Oxford one is worth the work required - I've already adapted one Parkside kit and I think that's probably the easier job.

 

John

[seanmcs]

Well, I've offered to send a couple of pix of a recent nice Oxford LNER Cattle Wagon to a member if he would send me an email to which I could reply. I cannot master the RMWEB picture upload on a Mac.

 

Anyone else willing to take a look?

 

My email:

 

seanmcs@iprimus.com.au   

 

I'll send you the pix and maybe you can penetrate the pix routine on this site.

 

Best.   seanmcs

 

if no interest - fine. These little Foreign cattle trucks will be a delight on the layout of Wiltshire in mid-1930s. Probably a change of wheels to P4, and a bit of weathering. Really quite fine. I could not achieve those standards in a kit por selfbuilt. Details excluded.

 

Best   seanmcs

[micklner]

Well, I've offered to send a couple of pix of a recent nice Oxford LNER Cattle Wagon to a member if he would send me an email to which I could reply. I cannot master the RMWEB picture upload on a Mac.

 

Anyone else willing to take a look?

 

My email:

 

seanmcs@iprimus.com.au   

 

I'll send you the pix and maybe you can penetrate the pix routine on this site.

 

Best.   seanmcs

 

if no interest - fine. These little Foreign cattle trucks will be a delight on the layout of Wiltshire in mid-1930s. Probably a change of wheels to P4, and a bit of weathering. Really quite fine. I could not achieve those standards in a kit por selfbuilt. Details excluded.

 

Best   seanmcs

 

I haven't received anything ! Read your messages !

Edited September 21, 2017 by micklner

[Talltim]

Surely the image upload on the mac is the same as on a PC? This is a website not an application after all

Click on Choose File find the file, then click on Attach this File then select where in the post you want it and click on Add to Post

Edited September 21, 2017 by Talltim

[JeremyC]

Surely the image upload on the mac is the same as on a PC? This is a website not an application after all

Click on Choose File find the file, then click on Attach this File then select where in the post you want it and click on Add to Post

IMG_1811.PNG

If your reading screen is the same as mine you will need to click on the 'Reply with Attachments' button below the 'Reply to this Topic' box to get to the screen shown in Talltim's post. Edited September 21, 2017 by JeremyC

[Nile]

Photos of the latest one to arrive at Hattons indicate no change to the tooling:

 

http://www.hattons.co.uk/254675/Oxford_Rail_OR76CAT003W_4_wheel_cattle_wagon_196152_in_LNER_bauxite_with_lime_washed_weathered_finish/StockDetail.aspx

[seanmcs]

Nile:

 

I think you can be misled by the fact that your Hatton's pictures show two views at first of the same side. Look more carefully and you will see that one image shows LARGE on the left, and another LARGE on the right, as it should be.

 

I asked Hatton's and they sent images of the more authentic model with no lime, exactly the same.

 

So, it seems, error corrected.

 

A spiffy model. Highly suitable for P4.

 

seanmcs

[micklner]

Nile:

 

I think you can be misled by the fact that your Hatton's pictures show two views at first of the same side. Look more carefully and you will see that one image shows LARGE on the left, and another LARGE on the right, as it should be.

 

I asked Hatton's and they sent images of the more authentic model with no lime, exactly the same.

 

So, it seems, error corrected.

 

A spiffy model. Highly suitable for P4.

 

seanmcs

 

I still never received the mystery photos of your model? 

 

If you look at the photos the words " LARGE" should be both on the LEFT on BOTH sides not one on the RIGHT. If you look at there photos you will see the slots for the dividing screen, they should be both on the RIGHT of the vehicle.

 

Sorry you are wrong , look at the photos of my conversion and then any of the prototype and see how they should look.

 

 

More proof 

 

http://www.steve-banks.org/modelling/256-lner-cattle-truck

Edited September 25, 2017 by micklner

[31A]

I had a look at one of the 'weathered LNER' models (which I take it are the most recent production) at the weekend and the slots for the partition were still at the wrong end on one side, i.e. the same as the problem which Mick showed how he corrected earlier in the thread.

[Mallard60022]

I still never received the mystery photos of your model? 

 

If you look at the photos the words " LARGE" should be both on the LEFT on BOTH sides not one on the RIGHT. If you look at there photos you will see the slots for the dividing screen, they should be both on the RIGHT of the vehicle.

 

Sorry you are wrong , look at the photos of my conversion and then any of the prototype and see how they should look.

 

 

More proof 

 

http://www.steve-banks.org/modelling/256-lner-cattle-truck

Blimey Steve that is one hell of a site for detail. If I needed to run one on a ER/LNEER/NER layout I'd be using that info without hesitation. My single example bought for £6.00 will get weathered and distressed (all my stock gets distressed when it sees me coming with a knife or brush) and it will run on the ex LSWR through Seaton Junction amongst a tatty collection of other stuff I have messed up.

Phil

[seanmcs]

I now see the problem. If you look at cattle wagons from a Great Western point of view, you see that the GWR wagons have lettering S, M and L indicating the location of the movable partition. Obviously the lettering on both sides need to correspond. Hence it is no great leap of imagination to expect that the LNER size label would also correspond! But not the case it seems from expert research and observation.

 

The fine work done on the conversion and the resource on the three aspects of these wagons is truly rich. I thank the writers for such fine application. For my Wiltshire GWR layout set in the mid 1930s I was wanting a good smattering of foreign horseboxes, cattle wagons, and POs. These Oxford wagons, if the underframe is replaced to accomodate P4 and incorporating springing are quite attractive. As I'm getting on I frankly need a few short cuts, so with the cattle wagons might not switch one side around at all, as only one side will be viewed. It's a long shelf layout close to eye level. 

 

Thanks again for the generous education, as I have no LNER archive.

[mikeharvey22]

Is there an online photo of a prototype fitted version taken from the non-vacuum cylinder side with the LARGE lettering? Must admit the LNER decision not to associate the LARGE lettering with the large compartment seems obscure. What was the purpose of the LARGE lettering, and its position?

[Dunsignalling]

Is there an online photo of a prototype fitted version taken from the non-vacuum cylinder side with the LARGE lettering? Must admit the LNER decision not to associate the LARGE lettering with the large compartment seems obscure. What was the purpose of the LARGE lettering, and its position?

I think we may be in danger of over thinking this.

 

The logical explanation is that the presence of "LARGE" simply denoted the maximum capacity, with the inference that it could be reduced as necessary using the movable partition. 

 

The position of the marking is thus not important, and seems to have varied, either according to the preferences of the paint-shop foreman or possibly the height of whatever the sign-writer had to stand on!

 

An older wagon lettered "Medium" or "Small" would similarly instruct to yard men to look elsewhere if the load on offer needed a "Large".

 

John

[seanmcs]

Just trying to connect a few dots with the 1927-1931 9' wheelbase LNER Cattle Wagon:

 

 - Were the LNER wheels 8 open spoke 

 

 - Are the Oxford springs and W-irons correct. Looking at the photos in the excellent Steve banks site, three springs look correct. Very skinny.

 

Thanks in anticipation of insight.

[jwealleans]

I think it's doubtful any new open spoke wheels were used by the time the LNER were building wagons, but it's not impossible that some wagons acquired them when repaired. Spoked or 3 hole disc are more likely.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

There is a useful selection of photos of dia 39 and 40 in Tatlow 4b, and some have spoked - and looking closely I think two are split spoked - wheelsets; and in addition a batch of dia 39 (9'wb) is shown as costing significantly less by use of s/h wheelsets. Shown constructed at Faverdale/Shildon, and it was one of these works that the LNER used for recovery and reconditioning of used wheelsets for re-use.

[seanmcs]

Most helpful.

 

Thank you.   seanmcs

[Edwardian]

I think we may be in danger of over thinking this.

 

The logical explanation is that the presence of "LARGE" simply denoted the maximum capacity, with the inference that it could be reduced as necessary using the movable partition. 

 

The position of the marking is thus not important, and seems to have varied, either according to the preferences of the paint-shop foreman or possibly the height of whatever the sign-writer had to stand on!

 

An older wagon lettered "Medium" or "Small" would similarly instruct to yard men to look elsewhere if the load on offer needed a "Large".

 

John

 

Presumably this is because, once upon a time, railway companies built smaller cattle wagons to small or medium capacity, as well as large wagons, before deciding that they need only build large ones if they introduced internal partitions to reduce the space for customers only paying for small or medium capacity?

 

As older wagons built to smaller capacities were still around, it was necessary to label newer wagons "large".  As John says, "large" was merely the maximum capacity available.  A large wagon could be reduced to small or medium by means of internal partitions. Some wagons had initials under the partition notches referring to the capacity that would result from placing the partition there.  This is, for me, the most obvious giveaway that the Oxford wagon is wrong by virtue of having identical rather than mirror-image sides; the notches are not opposite each other, as they would need to be in order to fit the partitions.   

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I didn't include the movable partition when I scratchbuilt a pair of LNER design cattle wagons long ago, not knowing quite what form it took. But the recent Tatlow 4B has drawings which reveal a vertically planked partition with three transverse cross members, the top and bottom of which are extended to form tenons to engage in the locating notches in the wagon sides. The partition stood taller than the wagon side, and informed by the drawing, the top of it it is visible in some of the photographs. Next question, if I make them, will it be possible to thread them inside the existing vehicles and get them positioned?

[Dunsignalling]

Presumably this is because, once upon a time, railway companies built smaller cattle wagons to small or medium capacity, as well as large wagons, before deciding that they need only build large ones if they introduced internal partitions to reduce the space for customers only paying for small or medium capacity?

 

As older wagons built to smaller capacities were still around, it was necessary to label newer wagons "large".  As John says, "large" was merely the maximum capacity available.  A large wagon could be reduced to small or medium by means of internal partitions. Some wagons had initials under the partition notches referring to the capacity that would result from placing the partition there.  This is, for me, the most obvious giveaway that the Oxford wagon is wrong by virtue of having identical rather than mirror-image sides; the notches are not opposite each other, as they would need to be in order to fit the partitions.   

Not just a matter of money. Cattle were less likely to become distressed or injured in transit if they fitted reasonably snugly into the space available. 

 

Their fellows provided support similar to that of the padded partitions in horseboxes and prize cattle vans.

 

John

Edited September 28, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[31A]

As well as the comfort of the animals, the partitions served to prevent them falling over in which case a fallen animal could be trampled on with obvious consequences ...

[coachmann]

I built livestock trailers at Abbeyfords in 1965-6. Our building was very close to where Abergele Station's cattle pens were located. I don't know how things were arranged on BR, but our road trailers for horses had cross beams with peg holes in them and the side cushion bearers could be pegged in to suit the width of the animal so that it was held secure and upright during transit.

 

Our double-deck sheep trailers were a case of every sheep for himself! I picked up paint spraying while there (and welding) and instead of giving trailers the usual Land rover green or blue, I talked the owner into shellacking and varnishing the timbers of one box and spraying the metal frame cream. It looked really upmarket even though it was bog standard really.

Edited September 29, 2017 by coachmann

[Clive Mark]

Strictly, no, because the 9' wheelbase ones (as produced by Oxford) were probably extinct by 1948 and, if not, so soon afterward that they wouldn't have received BR livery.

 

The 10' wheelbase versions definitely did, there are also photos of them on the WR way down in Cornwall.

 

I've yet to decide if my Oxford one is worth the work required - I've already adapted one Parkside kit and I think that's probably the easier job.

 

John

 

There were two Parkside LNER Cattle builds in BR bauxite on display in the showcase at Scaleforum. They had been put on Dave Bradwell's etched 10' underframe and had the appropriate bracing brackets that were added to the 10 foot AVB wagons. They looked superb. A pricey way to do it but the fine brakegear really did it for them. They were with a LMS Cattle built from a David Geen kit which also looked nice.

[Clive Mark]

Geoff Kent's excellent book The 4mm Wagon part 2 shows pictures and history of the LNER Cattle. He states that few of the 9' wheelbase made it to the early 1950's. Many 9' were rebuilt to 10' and vacuum braked so they would have lasted longer.

 

I believe some of the later builds that were built 10' from the start lasted until the early sixties.

 

Geoff shows E153516 built 9' from the Parkside kit and in BR livery.

[Clive Mark]

Steve Bank's website has very useful info and tells the stark truth about just how bad the Oxford Cattle wagon is.

 

Also MRJ issue 87 of 1996 has a very comprehensive article about 9' and 10' wheelbase developments.

Edited October 4, 2017 by CLIVE MARK