40F Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 (edited) I do love these discussions with all experts who know the cause/reason immediately even if nowhere near the incident !!!!!!! Edited August 25, 2017 by 40F Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 There's always someone who makes this comment despite the fact that on an Internet forum there is no way of knowing who people are or whether they were there Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Wheeltimbers rot over a period of time largely because water penetrates into the heart of the timber via the chair / baseplate holes - they are inspected annually by the taking of drilled core samples in addition to the periodic patrol / TSM / TME inspections - these in association with track geometry recording should enable the timber condition & renewal to be properly managed - the use of manual methods is particularly important in areas where train born TG recording doesn't happen and there is no "dynamic" testing of gauge under load - my own particular experience of this was with the wheel-timbers at Waterloo platform bufferstop ends where the "steam-age" water / oil drainage sumps in the four-foot still exist - examination of the rail head contact pattern is doubly important in this situation as this can give indication of rail rotation due to loss of timber integrity around the coachscrews. Any sign of gauge spread should immediately be dealt with by tie-bars, shortly followed by base-plate relocation and plugging of the redundant holes - this continues until ultimately renewal of the timber is required when it can no longer retain the baseplates - this can be planned well in advance and in no way should be permitted to end up in the disgraceful situation that occurred at Bexley in 1997 that resulted from the chaos of early privatisation - Railtrack & Balfour Beatty' were very, very lucky not to have killed people that day .............. it would be another 3 years to the next wake-up call at Hatfield. Wheeltimbers are now relatively uncommon but huge numbers still exist (and not permitted above 100mph ISTR) so the risk is reduced - good thing really but as far as this latest occurrence is concerned, a derailment is a derailment is a derailment .......................... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 There's always someone who makes this comment despite the fact that on an Internet forum there is no way of knowing who people are or whether they were there Indeed, especially bearing in mind how many on this forum are experienced professional railwaymen... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted August 25, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 25, 2017 (edited) I do love these discussions with all experts who know the cause/reason immediately even if nowhere near the incident !!!!!!! There is nothing wrong with discussing such incidents on here provided the information is in the public domain. There's always someone who makes this comment despite the fact that on an Internet forum there is no way of knowing who people are or whether they were there It is not necessary to 'be there' to draw conclusions, particularly if the poster has specialist knowledge of the area concerned. Indeed, especially bearing in mind how many on this forum are experienced professional railwaymen... If you pay close attention to what we 'professional railwaymen' post you would realise that in most cases we are quite careful in what we say. That however does not mean we cannot use our professional knowledge to provide a degree of clarity as to the crucial issues at the heart of an incident and to rule out some of the more outlandish theories / speculation. In the case of Waterloo for example, there was nothing wrong with my statements - as its plainly obvious that the signalling system integrity had been compromised for the incident to happen if the first place. Equally in the case of Paddington we have P-way engineers on here who quite correctly state that using tie bars to keep the track in gauge for extended periods, particularly where several need to be deployed (as visible in the publicly available photos of the Paddington derailment) is asking for trouble and indicates a worrying lack of attention by those in charge. Neither of these observations makes specific allegations - but they do indicate the most likely areas the RAIB will focus on during their investigations. Edited August 25, 2017 by phil-b259 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted August 25, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 25, 2017 (edited) As far as I can see nobody has claimed to know the cause of this incident, for the very good reason that nobody does know the cause of this incident which will be established in due course by an internal or public inquiry. None of us can even claim to know the full facts of the incident. Those contributors who are current or ex-professional railwaymen have discussed possible factors that may or may not have been involved, and I see nothing wrong with that! Comments have been made about visible evidence such as tie bars, and about track going out of gauge, or loads bearing down under braking, but nobody has stated that these matters are the direct, indirect, or any, cause of the derailment! Edited August 25, 2017 by The Johnster Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
w124bob Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Come on , I can state without doubt,the cause of the derailment was somebody nudged the baseboard. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 25, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 25, 2017 And toilet waste... Plus being regularly (weekly) hosed down back in BR days in order to clear away the remnants of effluent deposited by passengers who couldn't (or wouldn't) read. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Endacott Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 As far as I can see nobody has claimed to know the cause of this incident... It was caused by gravity. Someone must have left the gravity switch in the "on" position. Geoff Endacott 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 It was caused by gravity. Someone must have left the gravity switch in the "on" position. Geoff Endacott No, no - it must have been the wrong kind of gravity. It's all off to one side. Jim 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 (edited) It was caused by gravity. Someone must have left the gravity switch in the "on" position. Geoff Endacott I told them when I put it in that it was too close to the isolating section switch for platform 2. The coming of the Digital Railway will mean that such section switches go OOU and it will all be controlled from an iPhone... Edited August 25, 2017 by Talltim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 96701 Posted August 25, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 25, 2017 Wheeltimbers rot over a period of time largely because water penetrates into the heart of the timber via the chair / baseplate holes - they are inspected annually by the taking of drilled core samples in addition to the periodic patrol / TSM / TME inspections - these in association with track geometry recording should enable the timber condition & renewal to be properly managed - the use of manual methods is particularly important in areas where train born TG recording doesn't happen and there is no "dynamic" testing of gauge under load - my own particular experience of this was with the wheel-timbers at Waterloo platform bufferstop ends where the "steam-age" water / oil drainage sumps in the four-foot still exist - examination of the rail head contact pattern is doubly important in this situation as this can give indication of rail rotation due to loss of timber integrity around the coachscrews. Any sign of gauge spread should immediately be dealt with by tie-bars, shortly followed by base-plate relocation and plugging of the redundant holes - this continues until ultimately renewal of the timber is required when it can no longer retain the baseplates - this can be planned well in advance and in no way should be permitted to end up in the disgraceful situation that occurred at Bexley in 1997 that resulted from the chaos of early privatisation - Railtrack & Balfour Beatty' were very, very lucky not to have killed people that day .............. it would be another 3 years to the next wake-up call at Hatfield. Wheeltimbers are now relatively uncommon but huge numbers still exist (and not permitted above 100mph ISTR) so the risk is reduced - good thing really but as far as this latest occurrence is concerned, a derailment is a derailment is a derailment .......................... I don't think any train borne geometry recording would make it that far down a platform, so if there is a regular track recording booked on Trackid 3602, would anybody think that they really must do a manual geometry recording right up to the buffers (to coin a phrase). If the regular patrols happen to coincide with a train being in No 2 platform, when does anybody actually record that level of detail? It could be quite interesting to see what level of granularity comes from the reporting systems if the investigation heads down that route.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted August 25, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 25, 2017 Wheeltimbers rot over a period of time largely because water penetrates into the heart of the timber via the chair / baseplate holes - they are inspected annually by the taking of drilled core samples in addition to the periodic patrol / TSM / TME inspections - these in association with track geometry recording should enable the timber condition & renewal to be properly managed - the use of manual methods is particularly important in areas where train born TG recording doesn't happen and there is no "dynamic" testing of gauge under load - my own particular experience of this was with the wheel-timbers at Waterloo platform bufferstop ends where the "steam-age" water / oil drainage sumps in the four-foot still exist - examination of the rail head contact pattern is doubly important in this situation as this can give indication of rail rotation due to loss of timber integrity around the coachscrews. Any sign of gauge spread should immediately be dealt with by tie-bars, shortly followed by base-plate relocation and plugging of the redundant holes - this continues until ultimately renewal of the timber is required when it can no longer retain the baseplates - this can be planned well in advance and in no way should be permitted to end up in the disgraceful situation that occurred at Bexley in 1997 that resulted from the chaos of early privatisation - Railtrack & Balfour Beatty' were very, very lucky not to have killed people that day .............. it would be another 3 years to the next wake-up call at Hatfield. Wheeltimbers are now relatively uncommon but huge numbers still exist (and not permitted above 100mph ISTR) so the risk is reduced - good thing really but as far as this latest occurrence is concerned, a derailment is a derailment is a derailment .......................... Excuse my ignorance, but what is a wheeltimber? Is that what I would call a longitudinal sleeper? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Excuse my ignorance, but what is a wheeltimber? Is that what I would call a longitudinal sleeper? Yes. Wheeltimber is be the current terminology, but looking back at the first edition of the PWI's British Railway Track, they were referred to as way beams, and I am fairly certain I have seen them referred to as long, or longitudinal, bearers. Jim 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted August 25, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 25, 2017 Yes. Wheeltimber is be the current terminology, but looking back at the first edition of the PWI's British Railway Track, they were referred to as way beams, and I am fairly certain I have seen them referred to as long, or longitudinal, bearers. Jim Ta! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 96701 Posted August 25, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 25, 2017 Excuse my ignorance, but what is a wheeltimber? Is that what I would call a longitudinal sleeper? A wheel timber is also known as a longitudinal timber. They support the rail along the length. There are some photos on this site of Barmouth bridge that show them quite well. http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nw1608b.htm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 I'm not aware that the GWR ever referred to "wheeltimber road", or "beam road". They look like baulks to me . 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted August 25, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 25, 2017 You think Paddington has problems? <iframe src="https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Funiladmag%2Fvideos%2F2916452238377816%2F&show_text=1&width=560"width="560" height="562" style="border:none;overflow:hidden" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowTransparency="true" allowFullScreen="true"></iframe> Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 It doesnt take a genius to work out what happened in this case, the evidence is there for all to see. The main things are the number of loose tie bars and the fact that all 4 platform side wheels are in the four foot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerald Henriksen Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 You think Paddington has problems? <iframe src="https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Funiladmag%2Fvideos%2F2916452238377816%2F&show_text=1&width=560"width="560" height="562" style="border:none;overflow:hidden" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowTransparency="true" allowFullScreen="true"></iframe> Not saying the track is in great condition, but its appearance is also greatly exaggerated by the use of a zoom lens on the camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted August 26, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 26, 2017 As is the way the loco is bouncing around, but it is pretty dreadful. Presumably the driver knows if he's off the road because the ride improves! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 Yes, Wheeltimber = longitudinal timber = waybeam = ? = ? as with some many railway things depends on your location era etc etc I've always known them as wheeltimbers which is a "Southern R" thing apparently - might derive from the time at Headcorn / Staplehurst in 18?? when they tried to use the actual timbers rather than the rails to run Charles Dickens' train over a bridge .......... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john new Posted August 26, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 26, 2017 (edited) The pressures on staff being talked about were exactly what made me leave the industry as soon as I was in a position to be financially secure and before I had a nervous breakdown or heart attack. There had been been bad at times during the financially strapped days of the 1970s and into sectorisation, but from the early 1990s got many times worse. Under BR I was spending about 80% of my time on engineering decisions and making sure the job got done right, the other 20% on managing staff and doing the paperwork. Within a couple of years I was lucky to spend 20% of my week on engineering matters. Backside covering paperwork and contractual arguments had almost swamped us, not to mention the Magic Roundabout of escalating costs trying to retain competent staff after so many had been retired early. Local government was similar too when I also managed to get out (2008) for basically similar health reasons. When I meet my younger ex-colleagues who are still in the service they say it's got even worse. If you want stuff to run safely those responsible for it need need adequate resources and a stable environment to work in. I daren't comment further as it would stray into the banned areas of political comments. Edited August 26, 2017 by john new Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hroth Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 Yes, Wheeltimber = longitudinal timber = waybeam = ? = ? as with some many railway things depends on your location era etc etc I've always known them as wheeltimbers which is a "Southern R" thing apparently - might derive from the time at Headcorn / Staplehurst in 18?? when they tried to use the actual timbers rather than the rails to run Charles Dickens' train over a bridge .......... Dickens and, as I understand, his mistress and the manuscript for "Our Mutual Friend". Though to be fair to the PW gang at the time, they only expected the train to run on 30ft or so of timber..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted August 27, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 27, 2017 The idea of Dickens having a mistress is somehow more shocking than it ought to be; hope she wasn't hurt. Rolt's 'Red For Danger' account of the accident ascribes Dickens' early death and ongoing health problems to it, and comments that it probably deprived us of the solution to 'The Mystery Of Edwin Drood'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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