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1 hour ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

HS2 was never going to serve Leicester anyway, even before the revised plans. It does already have the best service to London of anywhere in the East Midlands. 

 

So scrapping HS2 phase 2b 'apart from some short spurs to connect with existing lines'?

 

Presumably they are relying on the anti-HS2 campaigners to not understand the geography of places outside the Home Counties or be able to read maps, which is probably quite an astute bit of judgement on the Government's part.... 

 

The "short spur" to East Midlands parkway was described as being 42 miles long in the ST article, so about 2/3 of the length of the short spur from Dollands Moor to St.Pancras

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4 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

The Sunday Times was describing a high speed line as far as East Midlands Parkway and another south from Leeds towards Sheffield.  Unless I'm missing something then it seems to me therefore that "scrapping the Eastern leg" isn't entirely accurate; more that it has been divided into three parts and the middle one is not being built.  However there is no obvious reason why the missing bit could not be added later if the case stacks up. 

 

This is actually quite a canny move (assuming provision is made to fill the gap later on).

 

Nottingham, Derby, plus to a lesser extent Chesterfield and Sheffield still benefit from more and / or faster trains to London so cannot said to be 'missing out' compared to the West Midlands.

 

Leeds - Sheffield provides not only extra platforms in Leeds plus a significant increase in capacity for trains serving the city from York / Sheffield, it also provides a significant speed uplift south of Leeds by-passing some relatively low speed twisty bit on the classic network as well as providing a ready made termini should the dropped section between Sheffield and the East Midlands be resurrected in future.

 

For the Anti Lobby - cancellation of the middle bit chucks them a sizeable bone so they can claim some sort of victory while also freeing up borrowing to spend on Trans-Pennine enhancements and a tramway for Leeds to placate the 'The north is hard done by brigade'

 

 

Edited by phil-b259
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5 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

...should the dropped section between Sheffield and the East Midlands be resurrected in future.

 

I think that's a 'when' not an 'if'. I imagine that the sequence of events will be:

 

- Phase2 construction starts, press demands that it should be scrapped as waste of money.

- Phase 2 opens, press presents one of the trains breaking down during a test run as a complete national disaster. 

- Phase 2 is a massive success.

- Press now starts lambasting Government about how stupid it was for not building the missing bits, how they wouldn't do that in Europe etc. and demands that the missing high speed sections are built.  

- Government builds missing bit. 

- Press moves on to lambast plans for High Speed 6 being a complete waste of money. 

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10 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

This is actually quite a canny move (assuming provision is made to fill the gap later on).

 

Nottingham, Derby, plus to a lesser extent Chesterfield and Sheffield still benefit from more and / or faster trains to London so cannot said to be 'missing out' compared to the West Midlands.

 

Leeds - Sheffield provides not only extra platforms in Leeds plus a significant increase in capacity for trains serving the city from York / Sheffield, it also provides a significant speed uplift south of Leeds by-passing some relatively low speed twisty bit on the classic network as well as providing a ready made termini should the dropped section between Sheffield and the East Midlands be resurrected in future.

 

For the Anti Lobby - cancellation of the middle bit chucks them a sizeable bone so they can claim some sort of victory while also freeing up borrowing to spend on Trans-Pennine enhancements and a tramway for Leeds to placate the 'The north is hard done by brigade'

 

 


Benefits to Chesterfield Sheffield & Leeds in reduced travel time will be reduced. Leeds little better than currently via KX & ECML. This approach will just cost more in the long run, take longer & deliver less.

 

People in East Midlands & on the Transpennine route have been let down & lied to so often by Tory politicians about electrification, HS2 & NPR we have no reason to trust this lot to  deliver what is announced.

 

Shameful.

 

Dava

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7 hours ago, Dava said:


Benefits to Chesterfield Sheffield & Leeds in reduced travel time will be reduced. Leeds little better than currently via KX & ECML. This approach will just cost more in the long run, take longer & deliver less.

 

People in East Midlands & on the Transpennine route have been let down & lied to so often by Tory politicians about electrification, HS2 & NPR we have no reason to trust this lot to  deliver what is announced.

 

Shameful.

 

Dava

Maybe wait until Thursday ? This government has a record of media management ie letting a bad picture be pedalled in the press so that when the real proposals are known it appears to be better than expected but not anywhere ass good as the original proposals !. We will know in 48 hours now !

Edited by class26
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I see the Eastern leg has now been cancelled, which must always have been inevitable. How long before the Northern section goes the same way? 

 

The government won't want the embarrassment of huge preliminary works abandoned at a cost of billions, so the first section will be completed, I suppose...  to what purpose at this stage, is unclear. 

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If, as is looking likely, the Eastern branch is cancelled, I hope that they at least build the first few hundred meters of the track bed to enable a much less disruptive build in the future if/when it is reinstated. 

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1 hour ago, Kris said:

If, as is looking likely, the Eastern branch is cancelled, I hope that they at least build the first few hundred meters of the track bed to enable a much less disruptive build in the future if/when it is reinstated. 

There will be something as it has to exit Curzon Street and also the main HS2 heading north by-passing Curzon St.

 

It seems to me they are downgrading rather than cancelling the eastern branch - using the existing trackbed rather than a completely new line - probably will involve four tracking or reinstatement of four tracks where it existed in the past.  Rather like a WCML type line with space for higher speed services alongside slower traffic.  This solution couldn't work on the WCML as it is already mainly four tracked and the disruption to add more lines had already discounted the option.  But in the central belt of the Midlands to the east, there is clearly scope to do so.

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Isn't the problem, though, and I have for some reason only noticed it, that there will be a big gap in the electrification beyond East Midlands Parkway. It looks unlikely to get that far on the MML in current plans. So there would need to be electrification from EMP to Sheffield (if they are going to build Sheffield to Leeds in some form). I hope that are not now thinking about bimodes.

Jonathan

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39 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Isn't the problem, though, and I have for some reason only noticed it, that there will be a big gap in the electrification beyond East Midlands Parkway. It looks unlikely to get that far on the MML in current plans. So there would need to be electrification from EMP to Sheffield (if they are going to build Sheffield to Leeds in some form). I hope that are not now thinking about bimodes.

Jonathan

LOL - how cheap can we build it, we've got some class 43 locomotives and a load of Mk3 coaches - we could combine the two and make a High Speed Train.

 

I am sure any upgrade to the existing route would include electrification, probably linked with an extension from the current wiring to Nottingham and Derby too.  An obvious diversion route would also be Derby to Sheffield.  Between that and wiring to Leeds and a whole lot more of the Cross Country routes will then be electrified, MML services would be electric as well.  Electrify Bristol to Birmingham and it's winner winner chicken dinner time.

 

I don't think a diesel bi-mode could be in their minds, too close to zero carbon emissions deadlines, it will be battery electric at worst, but that really would be a poor step to make as it would complicate the fleets and change the price of the trains.  Not that this has never happened before when the government procures trains.

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3 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

LOL - how cheap can we build it, we've got some class 43 locomotives and a load of Mk3 coaches - we could combine the two and make a High Speed Train.

 

I am sure any upgrade to the existing route would include electrification, probably linked with an extension from the current wiring to Nottingham and Derby too.  An obvious diversion route would also be Derby to Sheffield.  Between that and wiring to Leeds and a whole lot more of the Cross Country routes will then be electrified, MML services would be electric as well.  Electrify Bristol to Birmingham and it's winner winner chicken dinner time.

 

I don't think a diesel bi-mode could be in their minds, too close to zero carbon emissions deadlines, it will be battery electric at worst, but that really would be a poor step to make as it would complicate the fleets and change the price of the trains.  Not that this has never happened before when the government procures trains.

has the train fleet been announced yet?

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5 minutes ago, ess1uk said:

has the train fleet been announced yet?

No, still awaiting the award but I cannot imagine it is anything but straight electrics.

 

Seems though the 5 shortlisted consortiums are not all happy: https://www.railjournal.com/fleet/siemens-launches-legal-action-against-hs2/

 

Edit: this is phase one only, nothing on later phases.

Edited by woodenhead
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So which summer is/was the contract going to be placed? More delay and increased costs?

And I admire Woodenhead's optimism. Though not sure why you describe Derby to Sheffield as a diversionary route as from EMP to Sheffield that is the logical route. Are you thinking of the "Old Road" as a diversionary route between Chesterfield and Sheffield (used as such now)? Or are you thinking of the route from Trent through Alfreton as the through route? That would miss both Derby and Nottingham and really please the locals, though perhaps the trains would be non-stop anyway.

Jonathan 

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12 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

So which summer is/was the contract going to be placed? More delay and increased costs?

And I admire Woodenhead's optimism. Though not sure why you describe Derby to Sheffield as a diversionary route as from EMP to Sheffield that is the logical route. Are you thinking of the "Old Road" as a diversionary route between Chesterfield and Sheffield (used as such now)? Or are you thinking of the route from Trent through Alfreton as the through route? That would miss both Derby and Nottingham and really please the locals, though perhaps the trains would be non-stop anyway.

Jonathan 

I was thinking more along the lines that Sheffield may not be the MML terminus once HS2 came on stream, so Derby to Sheffield becomes a HS2 diversionary route.  MML mainline services may end at Derby and Nottingham with only locals venturing north, Sheffield becoming more of a HS2 destination than now.  Assuming of course that HS2 eastern leg is still delivered in some diluted form.  Birmingham via Stenson junction and the existing freight line to Toton to Sheffield seeing upgraded track and additional lines as the HS2 route then up via Chesterfield to Sheffield and then on to Leeds.

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To turn Sheffield into an hs2 terminus is a bad thing to do ,London is not the only service ,norhwards westward and eastward are all important to the people of Sheffield . Once again ideas which will not benifit locals are put forward talk to the locals and look at ticket reciepts then come up with an idea.

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9 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

To turn Sheffield into an hs2 terminus is a bad thing to do ,London is not the only service ,norhwards westward and eastward are all important to the people of Sheffield . Once again ideas which will not benifit locals are put forward talk to the locals and look at ticket reciepts then come up with an idea.

I wasnt talking about making Sheffield a terminus per se, I was referring to is being a destination for long distance HS2 trains from London Euston in place of St Pancras which is already at strain from services.

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1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

I wasnt talking about making Sheffield a terminus per se, I was referring to is being a destination for long distance HS2 trains from London Euston in place of St Pancras which is already at strain from services.

It wouldn't relieve St Pancras except in the sense that there'd be fewer people on each train.  You'd still need four trains per hour to serve the stations south of EM Parkway, and those would have to continue to at least Derby and Nottingham, increasing congestion at the Trent junctions.  

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4 hours ago, woodenhead said:

No, still awaiting the award but I cannot imagine it is anything but straight electrics.

 

Seems though the 5 shortlisted consortiums are not all happy: https://www.railjournal.com/fleet/siemens-launches-legal-action-against-hs2/

 

Edit: this is phase one only, nothing on later phases.

I'm surprised that Talgo are/were in there. Or do they offer a full fat high speed train, as well as their traditional lightweight articulated things? 

 

 

 

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