Lathes & M/C tools

[ozzyo]

Hello all,

 

It was mentioned that we were taking over someones thread with the mentioning of lathes and Machining in general, so I have started a new thread, for questions and hopefully answers.

 

Do I have a lathe? Yes, two one is a Unimat 3, the second a cheap one about the size of a super seven (Axminster BVM20?), a pillar drill that will handle about 9" from table to drill end, and a mill with a 14" table.

 

Do I have any experience in this world yes. Can I answer all your questions NO but someone else will (I hope).

 

So here goes,

 

OzzyO.

[Ohmisterporter]

Good idea OzzyO, let's start with some really basic advice.

Machine tools can be dangerous. Do not ever use one without eye protection, and if a guard is fitted to the machine use it. I have seen guards removed 'because they get in the way'. They are only fitted in the first place because there is a proven need for them. I am a time served fitter/turner and can tell some horror stories about machine tools. Treat them with respect and you should be safe. If we ever meet and you want to see my shortened little finger, where it was crushed in a lathe accident, feel free to ask.

 

My other hobby was model engineering, and a debate our club occassionally had was with regard to which machine tool was the better buy for for the beginner? Lathe and milling machine both had advocates. A friend who built a superb 5" gauge Britannia reckoned that a milling machine was the better choice, as he had had to do far more milling work than turning. Bear in mind the scale he was working in. For modellers up to gauge 1 I would think that there is possibly more turning than milling to be done. Once you get past the frames and spacers how much more milling is required?

 

It would be interesting to see the views of others on this.

 

Geoff.

[PhilH]

If you get the lathe and buy a vertical slide you can turn it into a very effective milling machine. For me the lathe is a far more adaptable machine than the mill (I own both)

[Adrian]

Good idea OzzyO, let's start with some really basic advice.

Machine tools can be dangerous. Do not ever use one without eye protection, and if a guard is fitted to the machine use it. I have seen guards removed 'because they get in the way'.

I couldn't agree more - I wear safety googles and use the guards - I might look daft but my eyesight is too valuable to lose.

 

 

My other hobby was model engineering, and a debate our club occassionally had was with regard to which machine tool was the better buy for for the beginner? Lathe and milling machine both had advocates. For modellers up to gauge 1 I would think that there is possibly more turning than milling to be done. Once you get past the frames and spacers how much more milling is required?

 

It would be interesting to see the views of others on this.

I think you're probably right, there are more turning jobs than milling but depending on what you want to do there are still several "milling" jobs after the frames and spacers. All the motion, especially if fluted, fly cutting fittings, various boxes and brackets. Fortunately the vast majority can be done on the lathe with a vertical slide.

 

Adrian

[pointstaken]

Also, before you turn the machine on, is everything tightened up as it should be, and all loose components, such as CHUCK KEYS, removed ? As many of us have found out, loose chuck keys in a spinning chuck have quite a velocity. Safety doesn't take long, but saves a lot of time in the end.

Put unnecessary bits out of the way, so they don't catch on any clothing or whatever you're working on.

 

(PS. Sitting on a loose chuck key that one forgot was on the seat apparently can induce a very passable imitation of a vuvuzela, so my wife informed me when she heard me this afternoon.)

 

Dennis

[Tim V]

I will put in a vote for the Unimat.

 

I would suggest a precision vertical drill is the tool that will get the most use.

 

A mill and a lathe both have their uses.

 

Good lighting is essential, under certain lighting machine tools can strobe - looking like they are not moving. OK I know a lot are noisy!

[f#m]

Also, before you turn the machine on, is everything tightened up as it should be, and all loose components, such as CHUCK KEYS, removed ? As many of us have found out, loose chuck keys in a spinning chuck have quite a velocity. Safety doesn't take long, but saves a lot of time in the end.

Put unnecessary bits out of the way, so they don't catch on any clothing or whatever you're working on.

 

(PS. Sitting on a loose chuck key that one forgot was on the seat apparently can induce a very passable imitation of a vuvuzela, so my wife informed me when she heard me this afternoon.)

 

Dennis

I've had a chuck that itself come loose on a pillar drill while such things normally shouldn't happen you should have some spare pants in the workshop incase it does.

[flubrush]

My other hobby was model engineering, and a debate our club occassionally had was with regard to which machine tool was the better buy for for the beginner? Lathe and milling machine both had advocates. A friend who built a superb 5" gauge Britannia reckoned that a milling machine was the better choice, as he had had to do far more milling work than turning. Bear in mind the scale he was working in. For modellers up to gauge 1 I would think that there is possibly more turning than milling to be done. Once you get past the frames and spacers how much more milling is required?

 

If you have a horizontal mill you can do a fair bit of turning with a toolholder on the table, and can do most vertical mill and drilling operations with an angle plate mounted on the table.

 

Jim.

[3 link]

Also, before you turn the machine on, is everything tightened up as it should be, and all loose components, such as CHUCK KEYS, removed ? As many of us have found out, loose chuck keys in a spinning chuck have quite a velocity. Safety doesn't take long, but saves a lot of time in the end.

Put unnecessary bits out of the way, so they don't catch on any clothing or whatever you're working on.

 

(PS. Sitting on a loose chuck key that one forgot was on the seat apparently can induce a very passable imitation of a vuvuzela, so my wife informed me when she heard me this afternoon.)

 

Dennis

 

I met my old metalwork teacher a few years ago and he just had to remind me that the chuck key that I had forgot to remove " is still embedded in the workshop ceiling " B). That was over 30years ago .

 

ATB, Martyn.

[ozzyo]

Hello all,

 

thanks for the replies, not quite what I was expecting but what the heck, I can remember one well known modeler doing a demo at a big show. Doing a lathe demo with a loose tie on, when I said to him do you think that is a good impression on the use of a lathe, he said Ive not got it caught up to now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

OzzyO.

[dibateg]

Good idea Ozzyo

 

I have just aquired a Hobbymat MD 65. Where would be a good source to obtain cutting tools etc?

 

Thanks!

Tony

[3 link]

Well I for one do not have the faintest idea when it comes to milling, and what the benefits of horizontal over vertical (angle plate ?), and what makes it worse is that I have a Proxxon vertical pillar drill/milling machine that only really gets used for precision drilling . My trouble is back at school I had my mind on different things and life was just a party, never thought boring metalwork would raise it's head again. So I for one would like to know more about milling and it's dark art.

 

ATB, Martyn.

[Horsetan]

I will put in a vote for the Unimat....

 

I am bookmarking this thread.

 

I became the owner of a (used) Unimat 4 last year, to my complete surprise. It was offered to me free, as its previous owner had upgraded to something bigger! Things like that don't exactly happen often, so I jumped at the chance.

 

As I don't really have space for it at home, a very good friend now hosts it in his workshop shed. Once it has had new belts installed, I think we will both be slowly learning about what we can (and can't) do on it.... so a thread like this is eminently useful.

 

I didn't really have a proper chance to learn about lathe work when I was in school (although my school had - and still has - three big ones which were used mainly for CDT woodwork projects), so the chance to learn is always going to be welcome. I am conscious of the fact that many of the things we currently take for granted are likely to be lost when people (and here I mean kit / component / detailing part makers) retire, so it is as well that we learn to make things for ourselves.

 

Making one's own driving wheels would be something that would be of interest, given that - certainly for S4 / P4 people - the very extensive Sharman Wheels range which many of us treated as part of the furniture is now lost to us, probably forever. You don't know what you've got until you've lost it. Same goes for P87 German steam wheels which are only available expensively from Germany.

 

The other thing that will exercise a few personal "wants" are things like smokebox doors - you hardly ever see these offered as spare parts (I know I need one for a Britannia, for a start)

[bertiedog]

Good idea Ozzyo

 

I have just aquired a Hobbymat MD 65. Where would be a good source to obtain cutting tools etc?

 

Thanks!

Tony

 

Tracy Tools, on the net, I have dealt with them for 30 years, good prices and service, and they know what they are selling. There are also Chronos and Maidstone model engineering and Reeves and many other suppliers.

 

The MD65 takes standard small lathe tools and can easily be modified to take better tool posts and interchangeable types. At first you may want to use modern carbide insert types to save tool grinding, but get a simple grinder and you can make HSS tools in the workshop.

 

 

 

Make sure the jib strips and adjustments are 100%, no slack, and the accuracy of the lathe is very good indeed. Spares are available, although I believe the German production stopped several years ago. They are basically a metric lathe, and cannot cut a wide range of imperial sizes for threads, but most would be done with taps and dies anyway, especially for BA threads, where all lathes have difficulty matching the odd turns per inch.

 

They have fine surface cutting feeds and all common metric threads available in the gear set. A slow speed extra belt drive was once made by the then English importer, Essar, but the components can be easily made on the machine if you want extra low speeds for cast iron turning. The extra belt turns a layshaft at the back with an extra large pulley, and then a new belt back to the lathe.

 

The rest of the lathe is standard tapers and fittings, and there is a collet chuck made, expensive but very accurate indeed. All standard chucks fit or can be adapted to fit the back plates. The tailstock is standard morse taper, and takes all normal small chucks and tailstock tools.

 

Like all these smaller single phase lathes it cannot take a speed controller to slow the motor, wrong type of AC motor, do not try them, the motor will not start!! Early MD65 have s switched start with a gyro start, or later versions have a capacitor start. If it is an early model, a modern capacitor can be added to give a smoother and quieter start.

 

One word of warning on all MD65 lathes is not to overdo tightening the tool post the bolts that retain the tools in place, the whole top slide is somewhat thin to get clearance under the lathes centreline and in consequence is weak, and if the bolts retaining the tools are over tight, it warps the top slide.

 

The effect is not permanent, does no damage, but throws out the jib strip adjustment, appearing to jam things when the tool retaining bolts are very tight.

 

Just be careful, make sure the retaining bolts are tight enough for safety, but then adjust the cross slide jib strips at that point to ease things, a balance point will be found, and as long as big spanners are not used!...things should remain in adjustment.

 

I still have one of these lathes in daily use, and they are very accurate and pleasant to use, it's only limit is size, and even large 5inch gauge live steam engines could easily be built on them, bar perhaps the large size wheels, without adding the slow speed devices to get them to run at 60 RPM or less.

 

For model railway use it can do all the work, including milling, and there is a vertical milling attachment once made for these that turn up S/hand. The attachment could also be converted to a full milling machine with the addition on a milling table. These are still made in Germany, but are now extremely expensive.

 

The whole machine was designed to be used in East German schools and colleges, heavily subsidised by the State, which expected a good standard machine which could be exported as well. The makers were independent, even under the East German systems, and continued after unification, but costs have driven them to cut the design back or use FE production now.

 

Stephen.

[bike2steam]

The 'Workshop Practice Series' is a very useful collection of handbooks - or be like me, and do a 5 year engineering apprenticeship .

[Rumblestripe]

There is a Hobbymat on Ebay at the moment hidden away in the "Business and Office equipment section" so you might get a bargain?

 

Hobbymat with Milliing doofer

 

Worth a silly bid?

 

Disclaimer - Nowt to do with me, just spotted it and tryin' to be neighbourly!

[bertiedog]

There is a Hobbymat on Ebay at the moment hidden away in the "Business and Office equipment section" so you might get a bargain?

 

Hobbymat with Milliing doofer

 

Worth a silly bid?

 

Disclaimer - Nowt to do with me, just spotted it and tryin' to be neighbourly!

 

Worth it for the BFE milling attachment.......with free lathe! Reserve not met, so presume a responsible price.........

[RedgateModels]

Ive got a Clarke ML250 that for the light use that I give it suits me very well (when I can dig it out of the cupboard and find somewhere to set it up!)

 

I'd love one of these for it too, but then, how often have I not been able to saw/file what I might have milled?

[PaulRhB]

Axminster tools hold a good range of tools and accessories with models to suit a range of budgets, I looked at the proxxon range but felt that they were too expensive compared to some of the other small mills and drills unless you really need something very small that can do everything.

http://www.axminster.co.uk/

 

Camden Miniature Steam Services carry an excellent range of machine tool guides from less than a tenner, well worth asking for the catalogue and browsing or do it online. (I think the books Paul mentions above are one of the sets they carry)

http://www.camdenmin...ills-c-320.html

 

Personally I have a Toyo mini lathe as I only need it for small projects, that's 19 years old and as good as new. I also have a nice small bench drill and currently looking at aquiring a small mill of my own. I have friends with larger machines if I need them but it would be nice to have a mill so I can just get on with jobs.

I find the lathe has a multitude of uses from models through to bits for the car and household.

[ozzyo]

I've had a chuck that itself come loose on a pillar drill while such things normally shouldn't happen you should have some spare pants in the workshop incase it does.

 

 

F#M,

 

I take it from that comment that adrenalin is brown!!!!!!!!

 

OzzyO.

[ozzyo]

There is a Hobbymat on Ebay at the moment hidden away in the "Business and Office equipment section" so you might get a bargain?

 

Hobbymat with Milliing doofer

 

Worth a silly bid?

 

Disclaimer - Nowt to do with me, just spotted it and tryin' to be neighbourly!

 

 

Worth £250 of any ones money and a bit more, the milling head looks a bit like the one that I have but I have the compound table, cost me about £1000 a good few years ago.

 

OzzyO.

[bertiedog]

If starting from scratch now, then the Sieg 7x10 miniature Chinese made lathe is good value.

 

 

It has been around a fair time, in a thousand assorted retail names, as well as Sieg, and comes in a 7x12 variation as well. A new 7x16 also exists on the US market and should be here soon. The very latest versions come with brushless motors as well. Plenty appear on Ebay in the US, not so much over here.

 

There are clubs, blogs, and whole websites devoted to this small Mini Lathe, fitting it out, using it to max capacity, and beyond, and curing some minor niggles with the design, like the tailstock locking clamp, there is none, only a locking nut.

 

 

In the UK, Warco, Axminster and Chester do them, also Clarkes list them, there may be other suppliers.

 

They come with lots of accessories and can take lots more, either bought in, or made on the lathe itself.

 

It can do milling as well, (horizontal), and has stepless electronic speed control of a DC motor. Full metric or imperial screwcutting as you can change the whole leadscrew in moments to give accurate cutting. The spare one costs extra, but under £30 from most suppliers. Again do not expect to screw cut BA threads they are oddball T.P.I. despite being based on metric dimensions, use taps and dies. It comes with a full changewheel set.

 

Regrettably there is no European or UK equivalent, except Myford, and the cost is very much higher, although a S/hand Myford would give good value. The current Unimats for instance are Sieg made anyway, as are the new Hobbymat. Some copies of the Seig are made in Taiwan, it seems from mainland Shanghai produced parts.

[dibateg]

Thanks BertieDog/ Stephen - that is very usefull!

[Mike Boucher]

Good idea OzzyO, let's start with some really basic advice.

Machine tools can be dangerous. Do not ever use one without eye protection, and if a guard is fitted to the machine use it. I have seen guards removed 'because they get in the way'. They are only fitted in the first place because there is a proven need for them. I am a time served fitter/turner and can tell some horror stories about machine tools.

 

Amen to that. I still have the pair of safety glasses with flute marks on them from when an endmill broke, bounced off the lens, and wound up about 30 feet across the shop...

 

My other hobby was model engineering, and a debate our club occassionally had was with regard to which machine tool was the better buy for for the beginner? Lathe and milling machine both had advocates. A friend who built a superb 5" gauge Britannia reckoned that a milling machine was the better choice, as he had had to do far more milling work than turning. Bear in mind the scale he was working in. For modellers up to gauge 1 I would think that there is possibly more turning than milling to be done. Once you get past the frames and spacers how much more milling is required?

 

I would say a lathe. You can do milling on a lathe with the right attachments. Its damned difficult to make a flanged wheel on a milling machine.

 

Mike

[bertiedog]

I would say a lathe. You can do milling on a lathe with the right attachments. Its damned difficult to make a flanged wheel on a milling machine.

 

Mike

I would agree about a lathe being more useful, but any decent vertical miller with a horizontal option makes a perfectly capable lathe for larger items, the faceplate fits the shaft, and the tooling fits on to the table, with power feeds etc available.

A Cincinnati 10 inch mill will tackle lathe work happily, allowing two foot diameter turning, and of course can go smaller. Even a Bridgeport vertical can handle work held on the spindle, with the tool on the machine table, very flexible in what they will do.

Mentioning this works does not mean I recommend it, it is just worth knowing it can be done, the MD 65 vertical mill can do 12 inch diameter wheels for instance, but needs a special speed reduction system added.

Also the flanged wheel on a miller would be easy, just put the blank on a rotary table........it allows any round shape to be milled out, this is the way CNC is often used to form rounds.

Stephen.