Hornby Chip

[GoingUnderground]

As Craig said above the caps might still be fitted to the motor. I have a Hornby Pannier which came with DCC fitted. 9 times out of 10 when I switch on my NCE Power Pro at the wall it takes off at full speed. Once I have it run in i will open it up & take a look but I expect to find caps there.

If that happens literally when you turn on the Power Pro, it sounds to me more like the loco reacting badly to a voltage spike produced by turning on the mains supply to the Power Pro than an issue with the caps. You might want to try fitting a DPST (On/Off) switch between the Power Pro output and the power bus so that you can switch off the track power before you turn off the Power Pro and then switch it back on again after turning on the mains to the Power Pro.

[amdaley]

If that happens literally when you turn on the Power Pro, it sounds to me more like the loco reacting badly to a voltage spike produced by turning on the mains supply to the Power Pro than an issue with the caps. You might want to try fitting a DPST (On/Off) switch between the Power Pro output and the power bus so that you can switch off the track power before you turn off the Power Pro and then switch it back on again after turning on the mains to the Power Pro.

 

Hi Keith.

I will try that but the Hornby pannier is the only loco to react in that fashion.There would be 3 or 4 other locos of various manufacture on the layout at the time of switch on. It came from a Hornby digital set so I suspect it may have the original Hornby chip fitted. I will take a look at switching off Dc running on the chip & see if that works.Its the only loco that has reacted in that fashion.

[GoingUnderground]

It may be that as a cheap trainset decoder it is more sensitive to voltage spikes than your other decoders.

[amdaley]

It may be that as a cheap trainset decoder it is more sensitive to voltage spikes than your other decoders.

 

I have heard that when track becomes live that some decoders become confused & run off at a rate of knots.It was also suggested that switching DC operation off stopped this. I would also suspect that the Hornby pannier came with one of Hornby's original attempts at producing their own decoder. I haven't had the time to go in & look.

[Pete the Elaner]

I would also suspect that the Hornby pannier came with one of Hornby's original attempts at producing their own decoder. I haven't had the time to go in & look.

Can't you read back the manufacturer & chip code on your throttle?

[250BOB]

I find Lenz decoders to be "average", but expensive. I get better control out of other makers.

 

Ron has covered the issues over Gold/Silver/etc motor drives being identical.

 

On the contrary Nigel............had little success with anything other than Lenz.

 

Bob.

[Dagworth]

Lenz decoders seem to give consistent performance, generally needing very little setting up. I had problems with getting any haulage power out of Hornby pancake motors in 86s with Golds and Silvers, but this was solved by getting rid of the pancakes rather than the decoders.

Other decoders have seemed to need more tweaking for the performance I want.

 

Back to topic has anyone got any feedback on how good the Hornby Sapphire decoder is yet?

 

Andi

[Ron Ron Ron]

......Back to topic has anyone got any feedback on how good the Hornby Sapphire decoder is yet?

There does seem to be a shortage of operational experience being shared both here and on other forums.

Is it because few people are prepared to try the Sapphire after Hornby's poor earlier efforts?

 

On paper it looks to be a worthwhile contender, but AFAICS there is no "goof proof" warranty to back it up.

The only reports I've read simply concerned the (apparently flawed) implementation of the Asymmetric Braking function and the poor instruction sheet.

 

.

[Sunnysa]

There does seem to be a shortage of operational experience being shared both here and on other forums.

Is it because few people are prepared to try the Sapphire after Hornby's poor earlier efforts?

 

On paper it looks to be a worthwhile contender, but AFAICS there is no "goof proof" warranty to back it up.

The only reports I've read simply concerned the (apparently flawed) implementation of the Asymmetric Braking function and the poor instruction sheet.

 

.

 

What is the total amp rating of the Saphire?

 

Ian

[johnd]

The spec for the Sapphire of the Hornby web site

 

PRODUCT DESCRIPTION

Supports 1 Amp continuous current with 1.5 Amp stall. low speed "gear" for shunting operations. Set amounts of "water" and "fuel" can be stored in the Sapphire providing real time fuel consumption. Burn rates can be selected.

 

The Saphire decoder is NMRA compliant, and supports RailCom and asymmetric DCC.

 

High Frequency back-emf motor control - high frequency to reduce audile noise

Low speed gear for shunting operations

14, 28 and 128 speed steps

Operation on conventional DC layouts

Provides 1A continious motor current and 1.5A stall.

Four function outputs rated at 200mA each. Total current sum of function outputs is 500mA

Directional or independant lighting, featurng dimming and extensive special effects

Advanced consist control and extended addresing

Support for all forms of programming as described in NMRA RP-9.2.3

21-pin connector

 

It also comes with a harness fitted enabling it to be connected to a 8 pin socket or if you cut it off hard wire it.

 

Must say in the shops i've been in they do seem to be selling so people are using them.

[craigwelsh]

They seemed to have given the spec for the Lenz gold of the time to the design team and said 'copy that' trouble is now that the spec is supported by the Standard and the Silver and Gold have improved further though it is still competitive on price.

 

Does anyone know if it features a thermal cutout now by the way as the normal Hornby chips can sometimes do a very good impression of a smoke generator. The Lenz chips never have this issue and obviously have the warranty anyway.

 

Its probably selling well to those who buy Hornby though anyway.

[Mike Smith]

Hi All

 

Just thought I'd update on my limited findings.

 

Having bought two of the Bachmann decoders at just under a £10 each - as yet no problems.

 

Also bought the TCS M1 - great little decoder, initial problem was installing it the right way around - you've got to have really good eyesight, or a good magnifying glass. Works well - no problems as yet.

For ease I think the TCS is the best, no extra bits too fit in, will be going for this one everytime.

At present all I want is too enjoy running my locomotives, once the layout is finished, at least another year or two, then I will look at more complex uses for the decoder.

Mike

[250BOB]

Can anyone remember which modelling mag ran a feature on the Sapphire decoder recently.????

[Butler Henderson]

Does anyone know if it features a thermal cutout now by the way as the normal Hornby chips can sometimes do a very good impression of a smoke generator. The Lenz chips never have this issue and obviously have the warranty anyway.

Picked up a couple off ebay, one cheap and one very very cheap (the selling trader must have lost money on it). Apalling manual that is nearly impossible to read and when you manage it find that much of the info that Lenz for example provide is missing. It refers to the Hornby web site but nothing extra seems to exist anywhere, in fact having just looked again I cannot even find the manual which was there before. Some info exists on the Ontracks web site (is it a Hornby International product). Anyway as to the protection the manual claims "Motor overload protection" and "Functional output overload protection" so seemingly no thermal cutout.

[Mr.S.corn78]

Can anyone remember which modelling mag ran a feature on the Sapphire decoder recently.????

 

Hi,

 

I think it was Hornby mag and the artical was done by Ian Morton.

 

I have been playing around with a saphire decoder Andi and I will post my thoughts and findings tomorrow when I have more time

 

cheers

Simon

[250BOB]

Hi,

 

I think it was Hornby mag and the artical was done by Ian Morton.

 

I have been playing around with a saphire decoder Andi and I will post my thoughts and findings tomorrow when I have more time

 

cheers

Simon

 

Thanks Simon...a few of us are very much looking forward to your findings.

Bob.

[AllScales]

One thing's for sure: The Lenz mini decoders are fab for tiny locos like the old Roco "Lina" HOe loco.

 

It's stuck to roof of the cab, the wires have been glued to the corner posts. So you can't see a thing!

 

I have to admit, I got someone else to fit it for me, my eyesight is not up to the job...

 

In terms of which brand of decoder to go for, all of mine are Lenz or Roco (which I think is a Lenz anyway).

 

However I might try a cheap Bachmann in one of my engines which I bought purely because it was so cheap I couldn't leave it. I don't intend to run it very often though as it constantly derails (It's an OBB Class 2091 "Pig Nose" diesel).

 

In fact that could be a nice project for the weekend!

[br-nse-fan]

Hi All

 

Just thought I'd add my two pence into the conversation. I've tried a number of different decoders, and all seem to work without too much trouble..

 

TCS-T1

TCS-M1

TCS-DP2X

TCS-DP2X-UK

Hornby Standard

Hornby Saphire

Digitrax DZ123PS

Digitrax DN135D

Digitrax DN135PS

 

Some minor issues I have come across:

 

I've found that the Hornby Standard decoder does not like to be read by the MRC/Guagemaster PA, so it's difficult to confirm the settings that I've programmed into it.

 

I originally had a standard Hornby decoder in a Bachmann Cl 47 w/ the Bachmann 21-8pin adapter, the loco ran fine, but the lights acted wonky. I recently replaced it with a Saphire decoder, and it works fine now.

 

The standard Hornby decoders are only 500ma, therefore useless in my Heljan 33's... for a moment, I thought the loco was actually letting off with some clag at startup!

 

I've recently started using Digitrax decoders, as for about the same price as the cheap Hornby decoder, they offer Back EMF and a full 1.0amp... here are the specs on the DN135's:

 

Mobile Decoder with DCC 8-pin

Medium Plug ‘N Play 2†Harness

1 Amp/1.25 Amp Peak

3 FX3 Functions, 0.5 Amp

 

 

Features:

ï® Digitrax LocoMotion® System-Your locomotives look like the real thing.

The Digitrax LocoMotion System makes them run like the real thing, too!

Torque Compensation for smooth as silk silent operation.

128 Speed Step operation (14 or 28 steps can also be used).

Momentum with acceleration and deceleration.

Normal Direction of Travel is user selectable.

Switching Speed feature for easier and faster access to yard speeds.

3 Step Speed Tables set start, mid and max voltage for custom control.

28 Step Speed Tables with 256 level resolution for precise control.

ï® Scaleable Speed Stabilization (Back EMF) with simple setup & 256 level

resolution.

ï® SuperSonic motor drive for silent operation.

ï® FX3 Function outputs for prototypical lighting effects and on/off control:

Constant Brightness Lighting with directional or independent control.

Realistic Effects like Ditch lights, Mars lights, strobes, and many more.

FX3 & Standard Function Qualifiers operate functions based on direction,

F0 on or off, direction and F0, and whether loco is moving.

Function Remapping of 14 functions for custom function setup.

Master Light Switch turns off all lights & functions with one keystroke.

Advanced Consist Function Controls

ï® Plug ‘N Play compact design makes installation quick and easy in many

smaller locomotives.

ï® Plug and Harness arrangement for economic decoder-sharing options.

ï® Transponder equipped ready for transponding on your layout.

ï® All Mode Programming with Operations Mode Read Back reads back CV

values right on the mainline.

ï® Decoder Reset CV with or without speed table reset.

ï® Motor Isolation Protection prevents damage to your decoder.

ï® Basic, Advanced & UniVersal Consisting

ï® 2 Digit and 4 Digit Addressing

ï® FCC Part 15, Class B RFI compliant

 

[RBE]

I currently run both the cheap Bachmann and Hornby chips and they perform perfectly well. The accereation and deceleration works better on the Hornby I would say though. I don't really want to buy expensive chips as I intend to fit sound to all my locos eventually, however until that becomes a reality I need something in there to play with. For this they are just the ticket, I can always use them as function onlys after or even keep them for any new locos I buy prior to sound fitting.

 

Cav

[doggeface]

I have used the Hornby X9659 decoder on about 10 locos ranging from a 37 to a bunch of either very old or brand new 0-6-0s. Apart from having a rather short cable run (about 45mm between the terminals and the 4 pin plug they are of ideal size for small space availability. I cut off the plug and extend the wires and heat shrink cover the joints. To date they have been the most successful of the various whereas the 8249 is the least.

I find that Hornby locos using the X9108 can motor are the most likely to leap off like a demented kangaroo and also to give a final great leap after seeming to come to rest! I confess that the thought of paying £20 for a decoder when I can make one for less and mentally comparing the cost with other more sophisticated ICs leaves me cold. Having finally come to terms with the Elite I find myself an advocate of the cheap and cheerful and being a basic bolshie old ###### resent the exploitation involved!

[Crosland]

I confess that the thought of paying £20 for a decoder when I can make one for less and mentally comparing the cost with other more sophisticated ICs leaves me cold.

<grumpy old man>

Could you make one, pay the tax man, make a profit, allow a wholesaler to make a profit and allow a retailer to make a profit for less than £20?

 

Could you make 10,000 and still cover your costs of time to develop the firmware, test every feature and CV setting of every decoder and still do it all for less than £20 each?

 

We can all make lots of things cheaper at home. I find comments like this, especially about low volume DCC kit, very irritating.

</grumpy old man>

 

Andrew Crosland

http://www.sprog-dcc.co.uk

[RBE]

<grumpy old man>

Could you make one, pay the tax man, make a profit, allow a wholesaler to make a profit and allow a retailer to make a profit for less than £20?

 

Could you make 10,000 and still cover your costs of time to develop the firmware, test every feature and CV setting of every decoder and still do it all for less than £20 each?

 

We can all make lots of things cheaper at home. I find comments like this, especially about low volume DCC kit, very irritating.

</grumpy old man>

 

Andrew Crosland

http://www.sprog-dcc.co.uk

 

He he I feel like a soap box moment!

 

I get where you are coming from Andrew, companies have bills etc to pay and I sympathise as I too have these issues somewhat with my repainting, detailing, weathering service, but electronic componants are so cheap its criminal, if it can be made at home cheaper, which I don't doubt as I've made many circuits (not DCC but thats not my point) for about a tenth of the cost than to buy one ready done, then in a mass produced robot manufactured arena where they are knocked out in minutes it can be made at a tiny fraction of the cost. In fact making 10000 would be far more economical than making 3 for instance. There are development costs to cover granted. In my opinion the big companies are cashing in on the 'new' technology on offer such as sound etc. Its fantastic, it brings a whole new dimension to the hobby and it should be standard and half the price at most. The technology in there isn't new or difficult to acheive given the electronics knowhow. Just digital signals triggering a sound effect. I personally want sound. I want it on every loco I have. I don't really want to be paying £100 a time for it though. I would love someone to say, actually this stuff should only be £50. I can tell you if the sound quality was there, which it would be because its a recording at the end of the day (being well programmed to play them too of course) and of course in my ideal world someone like SWD or Howes would do this, then everyone would buy from them. Instead its all about seeing how much we will pay for it. (I get the reluctance of course because then everyone would be forced to lower their prices and we'd be back here with the companies just making less money, the point is it would be a fairer price and the buyers should probably drive it rather than the companies and refuse to buy at the higher price). After all, the tech is the same, just how the thing is programmed and how good the recording is. Once that bits done its almost free cash. There's only so many times you can get paid for the same thing. Compare how much tech is in say a computer graphics card, yet we can buy one of those (lower end granted) for under a £100 yet even that spec would make a DCC sound chip look like bashing rocks together to make fire compared with a nuclear bomb.

 

In conclusion I think that the 'new' tech in model railways is trying to pull the wool over our eyes a little bit. The wireless keyboard I'm writing this on probably has more tech than a sound chip and its wireless! Yet it was £40 with a wireless mouse too. Not quite the case I know but a little perspective needed I think.

 

End of soap box.

 

Cheers

Cav

[melmerby]

He he I feel like a soap box moment!

 

Compare how much tech is in say a computer graphics card, yet we can buy one of those (lower end granted) for under a £100 yet even that spec would make a DCC sound chip look like bashing rocks together to make fire compared with a nuclear bomb.

 

 

Cheers

Cav

 

And just compare how much you pay for a bottom end modern CPU, with all those millions of transistors. It is no more than a upper end DCC chip which just has a PIC and a few other components.

Last year I bought a new main board (with graphics processor etc.), quad core CPU, memory chip and fan, all for £149. Makes a DCC sound chip look really expensive.

However the computer components are no doubt mass produced on a scale that the DCC firms can only dream of!

 

 

Keith

[Ron Ron Ron]

......then in a mass produced robot manufactured arena where they are knocked out in minutes it can be made at a tiny fraction of the cost.....

 

....Compare how much tech is in say a computer graphics card, yet we can buy one of those (lower end granted) for under a £100 ....

That's the thing though Cav; decoders aren't made in anything like the quantities for "normal" consumer electronics.

Most of the DCC manufacturers are relatively small businesses, even the well known brands.

 

Even with some companies having the latest state-of-the-art machines, they are often operating from small workshops or small factories (e.g. Zimo's production facilities are in some converted shops.......

Lime Green fronted building here

Decoder production

Decoder production 2 ).

 

In terms of scale, they're not in the same league as the large component manufacturers or consumer electronics giants.

 

 

....In my opinion the big companies are cashing in on the 'new' technology on offer such as sound etc. Its fantastic, it brings a whole new dimension to the hobby and it should be standard and half the price at most.....

 

...... I don't really want to be paying £100 a time for it though. I would love someone to say, actually this stuff should only be £50.

I will agree with you on that.

Sound decoders are on sale for £50 or less... but not in the UK !

There are lots of them on sale in the US, designed at different points in the development of the technology. Some are older designs, others are the latest; the quality of sound varies too, as does the price, but I don't think many cost £100.

 

The latest LokSound decoder, the Select, retails for around £55 in the USA. It has better motor drive, more memory and better sound processing than the regular LokSound decoder (currently on version V3.5) - which costs more both there and over here.

However you cannot load your own sound projects onto it, or tweak what's on there IIRC.

 

I agree that if sound added only £30, 40 or 50 to the price of a DCC ready loco, it would be much more popular; but I don't know if any of the sound project folk would make any money out of it at those prices.

I'll wager big H have been considering an in-house sound decoder though.

[BromsMods]

Digitrax sound decoders are less than £50............

 

I'm with Andrew on this one. If it's so easy then why aren't there more companies making good quality sound decoders at a reasonable price? Sounds to me like someone wants to take up a challenge!!!!