Bulleid, Maunsell and Hawksworth coaches - did they last until the 1970's

[Bruciethefish]

Not exactly in revenue-earning service, but a rake of 3 Maunsell restriction 'O' carriages could be found inside Tunbridge Wells west shed up until the 80's, along with a 4-wheel utility van fitted out with a generator. This supposedly 'secret' train had been stripped internally & fitted out with offices & communications equipment, the intention being for its use as a mobile control centre in the event of nuclear war. I seem to remember they were painted a drab brown when I saw them.- No doubt other regions of BR had similar trains stashed in out of the way places?

[jimwal]

No one produces the LMS BSK in RTR OO gauge do they?

 

 

 

 

Bachmann have promised LMS porthole stock, first releases in crimson/cream.

 

Jim

[TheSignalEngineer]

About 11 LMS day coaches got B/G livery in the late 1960s to cover for shortages on the E-B-M/L services. They included 8 BSK, 2 SK and 1CK. I understand that 1 BSK was a non-Porthole type.

 

I remember regularly riding in B/G Porthole BSKs between Birmingham and Crewe in 1967/8. They were restricted to 90mph, but I timed one at well over the 'ton' through Betley Road when running late one night - somewhat lively. 

[Fat Controller]

Not exactly in revenue-earning service, but a rake of 3 Maunsell restriction 'O' carriages could be found inside Tunbridge Wells west shed up until the 80's, along with a 4-wheel utility van fitted out with a generator. This supposedly 'secret' train had been stripped internally & fitted out with offices & communications equipment, the intention being for its use as a mobile control centre in the event of nuclear war. I seem to remember they were painted a drab brown when I saw them.- No doubt other regions of BR had similar trains stashed in out of the way places?

The WR had one based at Craven Arms; I think a lot of vehicles from that ended up in preservation. They used to be kept in a substantial shed on the Up side.

[AberdeenBill]

The cover of M.Welsh's colour book looks to show preserved vehicles. Could interest me, but I wondered how many images show the genuine article taken in BR days as distinct from preservation?

 

Hi Coach.

 

As others have stated, the vast majority of pictures were taken prior to 1968 incluidng some in the 1950s.   There's a stunning picture of an ironclad brake third (second) at Templecombe, a rebuilt tavern car (The Jolly Tar) at Exeter Central, gate stock, Maunsell converted push-pull pairs etc. etc.   The extended captions are fantastic.  The only slightly odd feature is the lack of page numbers.

 

Bill

[keefer]

 

Small numbers of LMS and LNER design sleepers survived until 1971-2 (though they may actually have been built after 1948)

 

 

4 pics of LMS-design, but BR built sleepers in 1973/4 on robertcwp's flickr,the 'merrymaker' train showing that at least some of them had gained ETH:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/5564916935/in/set-72157603653607671/

 

 

gresley sleeper first, 1973: http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/6097480038/in/set-72157603653607671/

i suppose the rather run-down condition would suggest it carried the livery for some time?

 

thompson sleeper first at york (no date given): http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/3411736463/in/set-72157603653607671/

 

observation saloon Sc1999, former inspection saloon converted from thompson FK 1531: http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/7362940838/in/set-72157603653607671

 

thompsom buffets E1705 and E1706 lasted till 1978 - after withdrawal were used at penmanshiel as accommodation: http://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/8536670224/in/set-72157604142594351

Edited June 23, 2013 by keefer

[Fat Controller]

Late 60s not the 70s - and yes a very few select Hawkesworths did get blue/grey, not just the sleepers and BGs either

 

Phil

The BGs  received blue, rather than blue/grey, I believe. There were a small number of SK repainted in blue/grey , which saw regular service on the Cornish Riviera until the late 1960s. There is a photo of one on P49 of 'Heyday of the Warships, coupled at the head of the train- the photo is dated 29/05/1967. I have seen it suggested here that these vehicles were used as the compartment doors were big enough to allow entry by a buffet trolley, so they could be locked in when not in service. The practice seemed to have existed for some time, as there is a 1961 photo in the same book showing a maroon one similarily marshalled.

[Oldddudders]

Upon completion of the Kent coast electrification scheme (1959 - LCDR lines / 1963 SER lines) large quantities of Maunsell and Builled stock became redundant overnight, As this was still in the BR green era none carried blue and grey. A similar situation occurred 5 years later when the Bournemouth scheme went live because although blue and grey was being introduced, the remaining loco hauled Maunsell / Builled stock was all scheduled for scrapping upon completion of the scheme. Meanwhile the introduction of DEMUs and later Beaching mandated branch line cuts for those lines not being 'juiced' quickly removed the rest.

In fact when the new Bournemouth electric stock was introduced in 1967, it was painted all-over blue, no grey. REPs, TCs, VEPs all started life as drab blue. Southern EMUs were not seen as important enough to warrant anything more attractive.

[coachmann]

In fact when the new Bournemouth electric stock was introduced in 1967, it was painted all-over blue, no grey. REPs, TCs, VEPs all started life as drab blue. Southern EMUs were not seen as important enough to warrant anything more attractive.

Just a thought.....Would the all-over blue possibly have anything to do with non-refurbished stock. The DMU's that went through asbestos removal & refurbishment usually got blue & grey.

Edited June 24, 2013 by coachmann

[Fat Controller]

Just a thought.....Would the all-over blue possibly have anything to do with non-refurbished stock. The DMU's that went through asbestos removal & refurbishment usually got blue & grey.

I don't think so, as the rebuilding (which was quite major in the case of some vehicles) would have been at least a decade before formerly-blue DMMUs were given blue and grey livery. Most likely, it was that the Bournemouth line was simply considered as a (long) suburban route, and the stock painted accordingly

Initially, blue and grey seemed to have been intended for Intercity and major Cross-Country routes, hence its application to the Gloucester/Swindon Cross-Country units, and the Transpennine/ Intercity units. ISTR that some refurbished units initially came out in a 'white with a little blue' livery, before everything (including purely suburban stock, both EMU and DMU) got blue and grey

[The Stationmaster]

Just a thought.....Would the all-over blue possibly have anything to do with non-refurbished stock. The DMU's that went through asbestos removal & refurbishment usually got blue & grey.

No Coach - plain blue was the standard livery for non-InterCity stock at that time although appearance of the finish varied depending on which works did it and how they did, the stuff on the SW electrification, in particular, looked terribly dismal.

[10800]

In terms of books on Southern coaches/carriages, the standard work is: http://www.amazon.co.uk/An-Illustrated-History-Southern-Coaches/dp/0860935701/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1371895369&sr=8-1-fkmr2&keywords=southern+coaches+in+colour    (unfortunately, it now seems to be out of print and rather expensive...)

And also David Gould's Oakwood Press books on Maunsell and Bulleid coaches. The Maunsell one is linked under the Amazon description of Mike King's book.

[Ben04uk]

Quite a few Maunsells carriages survived on in departmental service, IIRC, and of course Maunsell and Bulleid designs for EMUs were around for quite a while I believe. But as for revenue earning loco hauled, not beyond 1968 or 1969 I think. Weren't some Bulleids used in Scotland for a year or two after steam, though not in blue/grey?

 

Edit: to add 'and Bulleid'

There is a maroon coloured Bullied coach in the Kingswear to Paddington consist in August 1967 as shown in the photo on Page 46 of 'Diesel-Hydraulics in the West Country' by Peter Gray. The author comments this was unusual as it was allocated to the Scottish Region.

[Karhedron]

The BGs  received blue, rather than blue/grey, I believe. There were a small number of SK repainted in blue/grey , which saw regular service on the Cornish Riviera until the late 1960s.

There is a nice shot of of one of these Hawksworth SKs here.

 

http://freepages.nostalgia.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cyberheritage/oldy2.jpg

Edited June 25, 2013 by Karhedron

[New Haven Neil]

Not exactly in revenue-earning service, but a rake of 3 Maunsell restriction 'O' carriages could be found inside Tunbridge Wells west shed up until the 80's, along with a 4-wheel utility van fitted out with a generator. This supposedly 'secret' train had been stripped internally & fitted out with offices & communications equipment, the intention being for its use as a mobile control centre in the event of nuclear war. I seem to remember they were painted a drab brown when I saw them.- No doubt other regions of BR had similar trains stashed in out of the way places?

 

There was a rake of Gresley coaches (in maroon) that turned up at Simonside wagon works for scrapping (South Tyneside) in the early 70's that were rumoured at the time to be of a similar purpose.  I think some of these survived, perhaps the rake at the NYMR has some of them.  I don't recall the exact year, but I do recall the stir in the Railway Club they caused!

[Bulleidnutter]

The WR had one based at Craven Arms; I think a lot of vehicles from that ended up in preservation. They used to be kept in a substantial shed on the Up side.

 

Correct me if I am wrong but were they no kept in the old mpd? And memory does serve me correctly. Those coaches are now running up and down the SVR.

[Fat Controller]

Correct me if I am wrong but were they no kept in the old mpd? And memory does serve me correctly. Those coaches are now running up and down the SVR.

I wasn't sure if this had been an old MPD or not, as I didn't encounter it until the late 1960s; what did strike me was how well-maintained the building was.

[The Stationmaster]

Correct me if I am wrong but were they no kept in the old mpd? And memory does serve me correctly. Those coaches are now running up and down the SVR.

Alas you're wrong - they lived in what had been a carriage shed

[roythebus]

ISTR seeing a rather mixed train in the mid 1960's at Paddington going to Cheltenham Races, with a sand coloured Western, and a rake of coaches of every type and colour, including a Bullied, a couple of Hawksworths, Mk1s in maroon and a WR Mk1, and an early mk2 in blue and grey! Pity I never had a camera at the time. It left from platform 1.

[mark alden]

A sleeper that I travelled down to South Wales in during the very early 1970s was a Hawksworth vehicle in blue & Grey.

There were some LMS designed Sleepers in B & G on Motor-rails to the South West. I think it was in the Stirling to Newton Abbot service. I've seen a picture of a Warship with one of these sleepers behind the loco.

[auld_boot]

This thread has jogged my memory, I remember seeing more than once a 12 wheeled dining/buffet/restaurant coach in blue/grey at Taunton in the early to mid 1970s.  I assume now that it was an ex-LMS coach but at that time we were only interested in when the next Western would appear so I have no notes of it's number and certainly no pictures. 

 

I've not seen or heard mention of it since and everywhere I've checked implies that the 12-wheeled dining cars were gone by the early/mid sixties, anybody have any idea what it was please ?

[Fat Controller]

This thread has jogged my memory, I remember seeing more than once a 12 wheeled dining/buffet/restaurant coach in blue/grey at Taunton in the early to mid 1970s.  I assume now that it was an ex-LMS coach but at that time we were only interested in when the next Western would appear so I have no notes of it's number and certainly no pictures. 

 

I've not seen or heard mention of it since and everywhere I've checked implies that the 12-wheeled dining cars were gone by the early/mid sixties, anybody have any idea what it was please ?

Are you certain it was a catering vehicle? I believe the LMS had some 12-wheeled sleeping cars which lasted quite late.

[Phil Bullock]

There were some LMS designed Sleepers in B & G on Motor-rails to the South West. I think it was in the Stirling to Newton Abbot service. I've seen a picture of a Warship with one of these sleepers behind the loco.

Nooooooooooooo!!!! Waiting for the Bacchy sleepers before we run this - planning on sending D1662 all the way to Stirling to show those Type 2 obsessed Scots a proper engine....

 

Anyone got the formation please?

 

Phil

 

 

[Ravenser]

This thread has jogged my memory, I remember seeing more than once a 12 wheeled dining/buffet/restaurant coach in blue/grey at Taunton in the early to mid 1970s.  I assume now that it was an ex-LMS coach but at that time we were only interested in when the next Western would appear so I have no notes of it's number and certainly no pictures. 

 

I've not seen or heard mention of it since and everywhere I've checked implies that the 12-wheeled dining cars were gone by the early/mid sixties, anybody have any idea what it was please ?

 

 

A very long shot - but I believe one LNWR coach carried blue/grey - an ex WCJS 12 wheel diner or sleeper -which was converted to a cinema coach for training purposes , and lasted in departmental stock into the early 70s, carrying blue/grey . This comes into the "believe it or not  " category, but I think I saw a photo somewhere in robertcwp's flickr stream 

[Fat Controller]

A very long shot - but I believe one LNWR coach carried blue/grey - an ex WCJS 12 wheel diner or sleeper -which was converted to a cinema coach for training purposes , and lasted in departmental stock into the early 70s, carrying blue/grey . This comes into the "believe it or not  " category, but I think I saw a photo somewhere in robertcwp's flickr stream 

This one , you mean:-

http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/4487366525/in/set-72157603653607671