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19 minutes ago, Mel_H said:

It's only just occurred to me, but how were the AWS batteries charged?

Hi Mel,

 

There was charging equipment set up in the depot and the batteries were exchanged at regular intervals.

 

Gibbo.

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15 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

 

 

 

Just to finally put this to bed. 

 

...but those differences relate to the eth control cubicle and some of the eth fault indications. 

 

Almost...

 

Can you say for sure the differences in the control cubicle don't relate to how the traction power and ETH were managed?  Of course if the ETH cubicle on both variants have no connection at all to the traction side of things or the engine governor either directly or indirectly then that would finally put it to bed.

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On 03/10/2021 at 19:57, LMS2968 said:

Whatever the situation across the Pond, that's how they were powered over here: steam turbo. A wheel driven generator might have worked better; perhaps you could nip back eighty years to tell them! Of course, it would also need a battery.

 

One would have thought that if going the wheel driven route a coach dynamo driven off a tender axle with batteries would have been the best option.  Yes it would most likely be much bigger than required, but using standard easily available proven components would have dramatically improved maintenance costs and reliability.

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15 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Wind the wrong handle and lower the dynamo into the water trough ! ............ maybe not, but water and electrics are best not mixed.

 

Since when have coach dynamos needed handles?  You do know how they work right? And since they can cope with the excrement that comes out of coach toilets, not to mention being first behind a tender filling with water as well, I suspect that they are 100% waterproof as well as wee proof.

Edited by Titan
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OK, if you want a serious reason not to put a conventional dynamo under a tender - the dynamo pulley is normally ( always ? ) 4'6'' from the axle pulley so the dynamo itself would be very close to or actually between the wheels of the next axle ( depending on wheelbase ). ( or hanging out one end or t'other of the tender )

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Just now, Wickham Green too said:

OK, if you want a serious reason not to put a conventional dynamo under a tender - the dynamo pulley is normally ( always ? ) 4'6'' from the axle pulley so the dynamo itself would be very close to or actually between the wheels of the next axle ( depending on wheelbase ). ( or hanging out one end or t'other of the tender )

 

Which can easily be solved by a shorter belt, particularly as there is no bogie rotation to account for.

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2 hours ago, Titan said:

 

Almost...

 

Can you say for sure the differences in the control cubicle don't relate to how the traction power and ETH were managed?  Of course if the ETH cubicle on both variants have no connection at all to the traction side of things or the engine governor either directly or indirectly then that would finally put it to bed.

 

I'm not sure what you're driving at.   There is feedback between the control cubicle and the engine on both series which shuts down the engine or reduces it to idle under various fault conditions.  There's also obviously an ongoing variable effect on the engine from the dynamic heating load at any moment in time.

 

If you're referring to the alleged fixed, constant power drain on 31401-424 then it seems to me that would be very easy to arrange by constraining the governor when the eth is off and a bit more difficult as the eth load varied but why on earth would you even contemplate doing it?  It certainly doesn't make life easier from a technical viewpoint and nobody has ever claimed this "feature" was present on any other class so why do it on the eth class with the lowest installed engine power?  You want as much of the installed power as possible for traction so why deliberately cripple it even when there is no heating load?  It doesn't make any sense on any level which is why of course it isn't true. 

 

 

 

Edited by DY444
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19 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

I'm not sure what you're driving at.   There is feedback between the control cubicle and the engine on both series which shuts down the engine or reduces it to idle under various fault conditions.  There's also obviously an ongoing variable effect on the engine from the dynamic heating load at any moment in time.

 

If you're referring to the alleged fixed, constant power drain on 31401-424 then it seems to me that would be very easy to arrange by constraining the governor when the eth is off and a bit more difficult as the eth load varied but why on earth would you even contemplate doing it?  It certainly doesn't make life easier from a technical viewpoint and nobody has ever claimed this "feature" was present on any other class so why do it on the eth class with the lowest installed engine power?  You want as much of the installed power as possible for traction so why deliberately cripple it even when there is no heating load?  It doesn't make any sense on any level which is why of course it isn't true. 

 

 

 

 

I agree with what you are saying - I would expect that the ETH has no control on the engine governor other than to increase idle speed if required. It just seemed there could be a potential hole in the argument that I wanted to highlight before anybody else did.  

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23 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Easily solved by using non-standard components ............... :stop:

 

A standard belt can be shortened to fit in five minutes. It is very easy to cut and splice using hand tools, so no non standard component required.  In fact I would not be surprised if all belts were made to length in the workshop on an as required basis anyway.

Edited by Titan
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2 minutes ago, uax6 said:

Doesn't Tornado have both the turbo gen and the dynamo on the tender to cover the electrical demands of a modern kettle?

 

Andy G

You mean to heat the water?:D

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9 hours ago, uax6 said:

Doesn't Tornado have both the turbo gen and the dynamo on the tender to cover the electrical demands of a modern kettle?

 

Andy G

Yes, that’s correct. It also has two independent large sets of batteries which can be charged from a mains supply, or the dynamo or turbogenerator. Either set of batteries can be used to power the safety systems. 

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On 06/10/2021 at 13:04, Titan said:

 

I agree with what you are saying - I would expect that the ETH has no control on the engine governor other than to increase idle speed if required. It just seemed there could be a potential hole in the argument that I wanted to highlight before anybody else did.  

ETH has no control of the engine governor other than that the governor will react under certain circumstances to change in ETH load by varying its output to the fuel pump linkage. 

 

The early 31/4s had a slightly different ETH cubicles and AVR, hence 31161 becoming 31400.......

 

Al Taylor  retired BR electrician, technical instructor and riding inspector.

Edited by 45125
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12 hours ago, 45125 said:

ETH has no control of the engine governor other than that the governor will react under certain circumstances to change in ETH load by varying its output to the fuel pump linkage. 

 

The early 31/4s had a slightly different ethnicities cubicle and AVR, hence 31161 becoming 31400.......

 

Al Taylor  retired BR electrician, technical instructor and riding inspector.

You may wish to edit the spelling, I am sure ethnicities was not the word you meant to type.

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August 1993 at Stafford, nothbound train arrives with 2 x cl.90 and 2 x DVT on the front of a Mk3 train (5xTSO, RFM with no red catering stripe and only one FO). Then because of engineering work to the North, the whole ensemble departs under the power of a RES cl.47/4!

(Train arrives @00:03 and departs @03:00)

 

Edited by keefer
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  • 3 weeks later...

Posted with permission from the owner, Ian Lothian who had posted to Facebook.  Polmont Junction, two class 33s and a Royal Scotsman ECS from Carnforth to Bo'ness on 15th March 2007.  The TPO was being transferred to the SRPS museum, almost certainly the only time a class 33 hauled a TPO vehicle  in Scotland.

 

Jim

FB_IMG_1635503836169.jpg

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46 minutes ago, luckymucklebackit said:

Posted with permission from the owner, Ian Lothian who had posted to Facebook.  Polmont Junction, two class 33s and a Royal Scotsman ECS from Carnforth to Bo'ness on 15th March 2007.  The TPO was being transferred to the SRPS museum, almost certainly the only time a class 33 hauled a TPO vehicle  in Scotland.

 

Jim

FB_IMG_1635503836169.jpg


Great photo!

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3 hours ago, luckymucklebackit said:

Posted with permission from the owner, Ian Lothian who had posted to Facebook.  Polmont Junction, two class 33s and a Royal Scotsman ECS from Carnforth to Bo'ness on 15th March 2007.  The TPO was being transferred to the SRPS museum, almost certainly the only time a class 33 hauled a TPO vehicle  in Scotland.

 

Jim

FB_IMG_1635503836169.jpg


Front class 33 to rear class 33…

 

“I can see why little brother spent his life round here. It’s a lovely neck of the woods!”

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