Class 175 & 180 in 4mm rtr

[BritishRail60062]

Any more updates on these projects? It seems to have gone very quiet around here .

[Joseph_Pestell]

Any more updates on these projects? It seems to have gone very quiet around here .

It's holiday season. Still much in mind but I am not expecting to do any further work on it until September.

[GordonC]

Its a nice idea and they are attractive units that I see all the time, but I just couldn't see myself buying either. They'd stand out like a sore thumb with my otherwise 80s and 90s loco-hauled stock. Modern units just dont do anything for me I'm afraid. The cost of a 5 coach Class 180 would also be off-putting for something that is anything less than a must-have for my layout.

 

good luck with it though!

[James Makin]

Hi Joseph,

 

Hope all’s well,

 

Any more thoughts on this topic at all by chance?

 

The survey results don’t look too positive sadly (philistines haha!) but it’d be great to see if despite this, it was a project you’d still be interested in going forward with at some point!

 

Cheers,

James

[Joseph_Pestell]

Hi James,,

 

Not been at the forefront of my thoughts recently as various other (non-modelling) projects have had to take priority.

 

But, yes, I still see myself moving forward with this.

[James Makin]

Hi James,,

 

Not been at the forefront of my thoughts recently as various other (non-modelling) projects have had to take priority.

 

But, yes, I still see myself moving forward with this.

Lovely stuff Joseph! Sounds good, there’s no hurry at all but great to hear it’s something to look forward to in due course!

 

Cheers,

James

[Ncarter2]

Lovely stuff Joseph! Sounds good, there’s no hurry at all but great to hear it’s something to look forward to in due course!

 

Cheers,

James

Second this. I’d take 2 of each in fgw

[CazRail]

Very interested in this? A few 175s would definately join my fleet! Maybe a cheeky 180!

 

Any progress?

[Joseph_Pestell]

Very interested in this? A few 175s would definately join my fleet! Maybe a cheeky 180!

 

Any progress?

 

Very little really. But still researching it further and looking to select a manufacturer.

[adb968008]

I’m surprised i’m The only one voting for a FGW class 180.

I recall riding these frequently back 10-12 years ago and thought they were very good units.

 

I also seem to remember one of these units running for Northern on a Manchester airport - Glasgow for a period ?

 

Overall i’m Surprised it’s a big thumbs down

Edited June 28, 2018 by adb968008

[GordonC]

We're they not on Manchester to Blackpool runs for northern... don't think they went further north up the WCML

[big jim]

They went to Windermere too (175s that is)

Edited June 28, 2018 by big jim

[159220]

Well seeing that the class 175s only have another four years at max in service before they go off lease and to a scrap yard (as no one is going to pay for a multimillion pound re-build and standardisation of the fleet, when CAF/Stadler would sell you a brand new unit for the same price and the DfT shall reward you with a franchise for ordering new) - it really does make a class 175 model unattractive to justify a £150 k tooling investment to deliver the standard to which we would now demand on a modern multiple unit. 

 

They have either a limited geographical spread or sort after livery - both depending on time period, yet never both of these combine to make them a genuinely interesting unit (wont mention that they look horrific). 

 

Furthermore, I fear the 180s are also in this camp. When introduced in First 'barbie' livery, they hardly impressed and were not a widely travelled unit (sticking to north west of Oxford and once a day to Exeter), nor a sort after livery I feel (based on the fact that Hornby have never released a post 2007 HST in FGW barbie livery as I suspect there just is not the demand) Yes, now we have Grand Central, Hull Trains and the short lived FGW dynamic lines. None really with an especially large modelling market and Hull Trains shall be sending them back to the ROSCO within the year. 

 

Thus I am not surprise this poll has concluded there is not sufficient demand to justify the expense. Now I ask myself, would I have a class 180. Yep, but what livery? FGW barbie doesn't fit into my modelling scene, and the dynamic lines did not make it West. Would I pay under £200 for one - yes likely out of novelty. Would I pay the likely RRP of £400 plus. Nope. 

 

I know this shall not be a popular view. But hey, make a FGW 180 barbie for £150 - paint it pink and call it a flying pig. 

[big jim]

I think your being a bit harsh, they have been around for 20 years, a lot longer than some steam or early diesel prototypes that have been produced have managed

 

Geographically 175, ok not too far afield but south cumbria to South Wales and lots of places in between is a fair spread, 180s Newcastle to london and Hill, and london to Oxford, Hereford?, Bristol etc is pretty widespread too

 

Both have carried lots of liveries or variations of, 175 not so much as the 180 but not limited to one livery per unit

 

I’d certainly be interested in a 175 in arriva livery as I used to drive them (in barbie livery for FNW too)

[newbryford]

We're they not on Manchester to Blackpool runs for northern... don't think they went further north up the WCML

 

A common working was Hazel Grove-Blackpool to which they were totally unsuited. It was bit like sending a Ferrari to do a milk round.

They were not well liked by Newton Heath as they kept breaking down. 3 out of 5 engines running was not uncommon.

Although probably compounded by not many drivers (or fitters) being trained on them.

 

The modified Northern livery looked good though......

 

Cheers,

Mick

[cheesysmith]

I keep looking at these and thinking could you modify a mk3 into one? The body shell and windows look a lot like they were based in the old 156, which was based on the mk 3 coaches.

[159220]

Geographically 175, ok not too far afield but south cumbria to South Wales and lots of places in between is a fair spread, 180s Newcastle to london and Hill, and london to Oxford, Hereford?, Bristol etc is pretty widespread too

 

Both have carried lots of liveries or variations...

I fear that is the point I was making. The class 175s might spatially spread from S.Cumbria to S.Wales. But not under the same livery variation, era or time someone might be modelling. Thus making it a difficult case to prove there is a market for the minimum amount of models in each livery variation to justify tooling and production costs. Such small batches would mean an extremely expensive model. Of course it is a hobby and if you are happy to pay £250 plus for a two car class 175 and at least another 999 modellers are, then great.

 

Equally the class 180 again, spatially they are well travelled yet not across the board with liveries. I very much doubt 150-200 modellers have a layout based on Abellio/Serco Northern for the few months the class 180 ran around with a Northern sticker on them. Certainly not those willing to pay over £400 for justying such a small production run (if a factory was even willing).

 

I think a teller shall be in the form of a Hornby 802 in Hull Trains livery (if ever released) and whether it sells. Then there might be the case for a Hull Trains class 180. Yet again the issue would be, much of the market the 180 would be aimed at likes to model “today’s railway” and by time the 802 take over next year. The couple of years the 180s operator shall be old news.

 

It comes down to whether over 800 modellers would buy a class 180 in either original FGW Barbie or Grand Central (both the longest surviving liveries) for over £400. I suspect not, would half of them be happy to pay £700-800? Maybe? Though my concern would be that even a grand central class 180 would have limited appeal as the Hornby HST in Grand Central livery was a slow seller, becoming heavily discounted to shift.

 

Now from all this, I still think I would buy a barbie 180, yet I am very aware how niche this model is. Luckily though for me this is a hobby and cost is not a consideration. Just I am trying to advise others who seem to be price conscious (I suspect they don’t buy many models or any, anyway), that the realities of a model here would b expensive and of limited appeal.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Lots of good points made here. And I will try to answer them from my own perspective.

 

It's a unit (175) that I quite like and regret that it was not more successful. But I am not a huge fan of anything modern. It just seems to me like a model that could be brought forward because one can create quite a lot of variants from only a few components. Therefore, rather lower tooling cost than most units = affordable retail price. Most modern four car units need at least three separate mould tools for the bodies. A five-car 180 needs just two, one of which is shared with the 175 anyway.

 

I think that we "purists" who have layouts set in precise locations at precise eras tend to forget that large number of railway modellers (probably a majority) who run any train they like on their layout  however much they do not belong together in the real world. And those same guys are probably quite happy with a "Railroad" model that looks the part and works well rather than a model that is correct in every last detail.

[159220]

There is absolutely no market for a new tool in the 'railroad' category. The market is in the high detail, with innovative value end, especially with such a niche end of the market. It would be a very dangerous path to take, to produce a model that is 'just alright'. Especially as, for a modern unit without much detail. The tooling differences would be minimal if doing for cheap thrills over precision. 

 

By purists I believe you mean those who discuss the hobby on RMweb. I feel it is the opposite, as it is mainly on here where people complain about price. Where as for most of the market, it is a hobby and as such if a model is desired, funds shall be sort. But certainly they would not accept poor specifications. You do the class 175/180 to the best that the current technology shall allow, or you limit your niche market significantly. 

 

I agree that a class 180 needs two body tools, driving car and centres. But you need a driving car for the class 175 too. Unless you are only proposing a two car unit. Seeing as Hornby have two body moulds for the class 800, I do not see where you get your tooling number from. 

 

You and I both know, the body tooling is not the most substantial part of the over all cost of the model, from initial design to delivery. One thing we do disagree on is, unless you do not wish to take a return for your efforts, is it wont be a cheap model (mainly as the market would support so few). 

[mdvle]

I think the point being made is that doing a 2 car 175 needs 1 tooling, but if you do a 3 car 175 then you need 2 tooling *but* then to also do the 180 only needs one more tooling - or alternately you need 3 toolings to make a 180, a 2 car 175, and a 3 car 175.

 

As for the comments about the "masses" I suspect you are both sort of correct.

 

It is accepted that the vast majority of purchases are made based on non-prototypical decisions.  Most in this hobby are quite happy to buy models based on what they like and run them without regard to era or geographic location correctness, and an equal number or even more buy stuff to either display or for that "future" layout that more often than not never happens.  It is this group, with their purchasing power, that make the hobby possible.

 

The good news is despite what can be seen as contradictions in the above paragraph they don't want to buy just anything and detailed models do matter to them - while there is a lot they are willing to happily ignore they want their models to be detailed with quality finish.

 

It is difficult to know what to make of the group who are more worried about price than detail.  On one hand the complaints about price do have some validity, but looking at the market and it appears that despite the noise made online they are a small part of the hobby.  There are really only 2 sources of RTR models that are aimed at this group, Hornby with their "Railroad" range and Oxford.  Everyone else are only aiming at the highly detailed end of the market as does Hornby with their new releases leaving only Oxford as the only company that is selling on price only.  I think the fact that nobody else is rushing to copy Oxford tells you all you need to know about the market.

[Scottish-Exile]

Oh, just found this thread. I'd be VERY interested in Arriva 175's and could even be tempted to a 5 car FGW 180.

 

Here's hoping the project comes to fruition.

[159220]

I could not agree more with your sentiments, mdvle. The market is not as price sensitive as you would be led to believe on reading some threads here. In a hobby, you use your disposable income and/or you save. If you wanted a class 175 or 180. You would expect it to be the very best as a compromise on detail would not sell (as the ones who moan about price, would still find it too expensive for their tastes, that is even if they actually buy models - I fully suspect they do not, yet just comment online). 

 

Thus both the proposed 175 and 180 need to be aimed at the high detailed market. Additionally, what shall have to be factored into the price is a very small production run. As they are such niche models, with liveries further dividing peoples interest, to accommodate producing (potentially) less than 200 per livery you need to factor the significant production sum the factory shall demand for building up their production resources for so few models. 

 

I do watch this thread with interest, and I am merely trying to inject some realism. I do however, see someone doing a class 180, though at £££££ due to its limited/niche interest. I would buy one, as hey, it is a hobby! But I would not stump money up front. 

[philipd89]

you know what your right there, not seen a175 in multi for a while!

 

however my last train worked for arriva was a 10 car combo, 2x2 car and 2x3 car

 

including 175110 in its 'ghost' livery

 

Can I ask which working this was please? Do you have a date by any chance?

[wombatofludham]

Just to add to the debate, there is a market for Railroad otherwise Hornby wouldn't be making new Railroad models.  That said, I'd prefer a full fat model.

To be perfectly frank, I suspect a two car 175 (one body shell) would probably sell in enough numbers to justify a tooling.  Arriva liveried stuff sells in silly numbers, not sure why, but whether it's a bus or a train, they seem to achieve strong prices on the resale market through eBay.  The fact you can technically release two Arriva liveried variants of the two car unit - 175008's "Ghost" livery and the standard cow's horn livery - would get tha Arrivaists frothing and reaching for their credit cards.  The First Barbie livery is more of a Marmite livery - I personally can't abide it - but given Charlie sold out of First Barbie Scotrail 156s fairly swiftly and the fact the units covered the North West, North Wales and the West Midlands in the livery, that's a fairly decent population within which there will be bound to be some interest.

 

I also disagree with the assertion that the only people who will be interested in a unit are those modelling the absolutely this minute scene.  My planned shed layout has a cut off date of 2006 - 12 years ago - but I could find space for a debranded Barbie, 175 008 (at a push) and a normal Cows Horn liveried unit, all of which worked into the West Midlands in 2006.  In any case, no-one knows what will happen to the units after the new CAF units are delivered, as no-one can say with certainty that the scrap and build policy of the DfT will continue in the future, especially if cheap finance dries up, or if the units might be converted to run on sheep farts or recycled chip fat or become a Hertz Rentatrain franchise for spot hire.

 

Let's face it - the 175 has covered a greater geographical area, population spread and lasted as long in service as the Class 71 Southern turd-rail electric and we ended up with two models of that class when frankly even one would have been hard to justify.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I could not agree more with your sentiments, mdvle. The market is not as price sensitive as you would be led to believe on reading some threads here. In a hobby, you use your disposable income and/or you save. If you wanted a class 175 or 180. You would expect it to be the very best as a compromise on detail would not sell (as the ones who moan about price, would still find it too expensive for their tastes, that is even if they actually buy models - I fully suspect they do not, yet just comment online). 

 

Thus both the proposed 175 and 180 need to be aimed at the high detailed market. Additionally, what shall have to be factored into the price is a very small production run. As they are such niche models, with liveries further dividing peoples interest, to accommodate producing (potentially) less than 200 per livery you need to factor the significant production sum the factory shall demand for building up their production resources for so few models. 

 

I do watch this thread with interest, and I am merely trying to inject some realism. I do however, see someone doing a class 180, though at £££££ due to its limited/niche interest. I would buy one, as hey, it is a hobby! But I would not stump money up front. 

 

Sorry, I missed this post at the time.

 

I can do the maths OK. Yes, the numbers would probably be low but then so are a lot of new models these days.

 

Simpler detail is not just about tooling costs. True that with modern techniques, not a great difference. But when it comes to assembly, simple details makes life a whole lot easier/cheaper.

 

There is always going to be a trade-off here. Look at the discussion about Hornby and a potential Hawksworth Slip Coach, a product that they could make easily. They are not doing it because they "can't make it work". Probably could with DCC at a price, but nobody has suggested that they should. Hornby have a dilemma and don't know whether they are addressing a modellers market or a play market. Great to put lots of detail on a model but is there any point when everything below the solebar has to be compromised so that it can get round R2 trackwork? People often say that the best layouts are those where everything is done to a consistent standard. As soon as you have a disconnect between the quality of the different parts, it looks and feels wrong. Less of an issue with DMUs/EMUs than with locomotives, especially steam, but still needs thinking about.

 

For what it's worth,, my own view is that the standard to go for is Charlie's 156s.