Heljan class 86

[PM47079]

Hi one of my former colleagues from work who likes his AC locos wants a Heljan 86. I haven’t seen one in ages. Do they come up much on eBay ? I only found one which is an Anglia one for £164. Is that the going rate for these?

[Ncarter2]

Depends on livery to be honest with you.

From personal experience I find the Intercity and Freightliner command the highest prices. Sub 150£ your doing well. Last Intercity one I seen on flee bay sold for 175£.

Virgin ones slightly more common. I brought three recently and didn’t pay more than 130£.

The heritage blue one I’ve not seen in a while and the Anglia ones seem to be the cheapest when on auction and not buy now.

I have brought 2 Anglia, both under 100£ second hand. I brought my Intercity and heritage one new.

Hope that helps.

[PM47079]

Yes thanks it does I will try and see what I can find. I think an intercity or freightliner one would interest him

[Padishar Creel]

Yes thanks it does I will try and see what I can find. I think an intercity or freightliner one would interest him

hallo,

a freightliner at GBP112 at the moment

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Heljan-86041-FREIGHTLINER-CLASS-86-86605-used-/132544176552

 

es grüßt

pc

[cs233]

I fail to understand why Heljan are not releasing new versions based on the tooling they have spent much on developing for the Class 86. Sure it is not perfect but I think overall it is not half bad. I also fail to understand why they do not release discounted Class 47 releases based on the now paid for tooling.

[BigAndy]

I fail to understand why Heljan are not releasing new versions based on the tooling they have spent much on developing for the Class 86. Sure it is not perfect but I think overall it is not half bad. I also fail to understand why they do not release discounted Class 47 releases based on the now paid for tooling.

 

Agreed. Not that I know one thing about market economics or such like, but on the face of it, if they were to release the 86 again and indeed more plausibly the 47 at knock down prices, then surely they would sell. Heljan were always very broad with their range of liveries for the 47, so releasing a limited range again would be something I would definitely be interested in - same as re-introducing their spare parts which are like hen's teeth.

 

cheers

 

Andy

[martin_l_jones]

I bought the Virgin and Freightliner, look good and run really well.

 

A new Powerhaul set would be perfect, a powered and dummy !

Edited April 3, 2018 by martin_l_jones

[MGR Hooper!]

I fail to understand why Heljan are not releasing new versions based on the tooling they have spent much on developing for the Class 86.

Because they're probably well aware of how badly they messed up a loco.

 

A few weeks ago I found myself wanting a Virgin Trains one so that my pre-ordered Hornby Virgin Trains Class 87 would have a companion. I then decided to go through the Heljan Class 86 thread and as a rule, only look at images and not read the content. Therefore not getting dragged to one side just by what people write (be it true or false). And the images of the model immediately put my need for one to rest. Livery errors aside I was really upset by the simplest of errors and what looked like misaligned/badly made tools.

 

If I were them I'd be selling the tools for scrap, pitch in some money and have the model re-designed from scrap.

 

The one thing putting me off from buying a Heljan Class 47 is again silly things like the model being much wider than it should be, it is noticeable. The windscreens look wrong and the handrail on the face of the loco is also wrong and spoils the whole look of the model.

[cs233]

Because they're probably well aware of how badly they messed up a loco.

 

A few weeks ago I found myself wanting a Virgin Trains one so that my pre-ordered Hornby Virgin Trains Class 87 would have a companion. I then decided to go through the Heljan Class 86 thread and as a rule, only look at images and not read the content. Therefore not getting dragged to one side just by what people write (be it true or false). And the images of the model immediately put my need for one to rest. Livery errors aside I was really upset by the simplest of errors and what looked like misaligned/badly made tools.

 

If I were them I'd be selling the tools for scrap, pitch in some money and have the model re-designed from scrap.

 

The one thing putting me off from buying a Heljan Class 47 is again silly things like the model being much wider than it should be, it is noticeable. The windscreens look wrong and the handrail on the face of the loco is also wrong and spoils the whole look of the model.

 

Good points about the shortcomings although I still feel they would sell both the 86 and 47 at the right price. I have Heljan 47s as well as Bachmann and run them side by side and there are areas of the Heljan offering that are better than the Bachmann product.

[MGR Hooper!]

Good points about the shortcomings although I still feel they would sell both the 86 and 47 at the right price.

Yes but what is this right price? Things have changed since they were last released. Not many people will accept that lump of plastic and metal for today's prices. The current demand for them is being satisfied by the second-hand market.

 

As for the Class 47, there's a Bachmann one and also a ViTrains one which unfortunately ViTrains isn't making anymore. Hopefully somehow the ViTrains Class 37 and Class 47 is revived either by them or by another manufacturer.

[cs233]

Yes but what is this right price? 

 

Only Heljan know what will commercially work for them based on the overall end to end costings. I would have suggested £75 - £90 would be a good starting point. I still feel the Class 47 is a good model the  high intensity headlight moulding is far better than the Bachmann offering and also the haulage based on my findings is far superior. Running the Heljan 47 along side the Bachmann offering is fine and it does not look out of place in my humble opinion. I still also would suggest that the Class 86 would sell despite the issues list which I have read in detail.

[adb968008]

Only Heljan know what will commercially work for them based on the overall end to end costings. I would have suggested £75 - £90 would be a good starting point. I still feel the Class 47 is a good model the  high intensity headlight moulding is far better than the Bachmann offering and also the haulage based on my findings is far superior. Running the Heljan 47 along side the Bachmann offering is fine and it does not look out of place in my humble opinion. I still also would suggest that the Class 86 would sell despite the issues list which I have read in detail.

That is the 2nd hand price.

Not much chance of a new release of any detailed diesel for less than 100 notes today.

 

With finite production slots available they may as well re-run models with a greater chance of selling.. they’ve repeated the 14/15/17/26/28/33/35 with the 05/27 not seen recently to go and 07 still to come. Even then the 17 and 35 seems to be yet once more slipping from the shelves and good for another pass. By that point maybe a 76/77 might go GA.

Why bother with a risky 47 or 86 re-run?

[wombatofludham]

I think the Heljan 86 has ceased to be, otherwise I expect it would have emerged in a second run some time ago, Heljan don't seem to be too worried about bad reviews and re-releasing models with flaws. There are a number of liveries it could still be released in even with it's flaws and mid-90's detailing, such as RES, Frightliner grey, possibly even Executive (not sure about the fire bottles though) and given they did sell, and still fetch decent prices on the Bay of Thief, there seem to be enough out there who would turn a Nelson to some of the design flaws if a second run did miraculously perform a Lazarine return. Given the imminent docking of the container with Hornby's 87, and Bachmann's 90 on final approach (even if it is in a very long hold over Barwell) if the tools are still around it probably wouldn't do Heljan any harm to run a few off, the market situation has changed quite dramatically since they launched the model.

 

That said, as the owner of several of the models, some liveries do seem to disguise the much debated front-end flaws better than others.

[MGR Hooper!]

I would have suggested £75 - £90 would be a good starting point. I still feel the Class 47 is a good model the  high intensity headlight moulding is far better than the Bachmann offering and also the haulage based on my findings is far superior. Running the Heljan 47 along side the Bachmann offering is fine and it does not look out of place in my humble opinion. I still also would suggest that the Class 86 would sell despite the issues list which I have read in detail.

Unfortunately that price is something one can only dream of and the second hand prices currently are much higher than that. That's what you'll pay for a brand new 0-4-0/0-6-0 done to today's standards.

 

Running qualities aside a lot of people don't only care about how a mode runs, they do care about how it looks and how accurate it is. Also the Class 86 will sell, no one will disagree with that, but it won't sell as well as it should be selling and those who will buy it will be the ones who don't know/don't care about the errors or those who really want one so badly. Therefore Heljan will be losing a large chuck of sales to the serious collector/modeler.

 

Moreover Heljan have publicly stated on a social media site that they do not intend to produce another batch of Class 86s because the first batch took extremely long to sell.

Edited April 5, 2018 by MGR Hooper!

[wombatofludham]

Moreover Heljan have publicly stated on a social media site that they do not intend to produce another batch of Class 86s because the first batch took extremely long to sell.

Self fulfilling decision. It was at the time of release the only "modern" AC electric model (the Hornby offerings were by then nearly 30 years old) so there was nothing of comparable finish to run alongside it. It also concentrated on the post 1995 condition for the body style, and some of the liveries, Anglia in particular, didn't have much in the way of supporting stock. In any case the Intercity ones seemed to sell out much faster. If the Danes have any sense - which I sometimes wonder given some of their model selections - they'd park the slow selling issue as mainly down to the market at that time not being ready. Hell, if Hornby with their kettle fetish and near bankruptcy have committed serious money to an 87, then that should be enough to convince the Danes they were a bit too early to market.

 

However, I can't help thinking the product planners at Heljan, whose decisions seem to wander wildly all over the place like a drunk in charge of a shopping trolley, have moved onto freak kettles and O gauge, with a few re-runs of things like the 33 to keep them ticking over.

[reevesthecat]

Can't help feeling if another manufacturer announces an 86 we will see a spoiler rerun at a cheaper price!

Mark

[BrushVeteran]

Self fulfilling decision. It was at the time of release the only "modern" AC electric model (the Hornby offerings were by then nearly 30 years old) so there was nothing of comparable finish to run alongside it. It also concentrated on the post 1995 condition for the body style, and some of the liveries, Anglia in particular, didn't have much in the way of supporting stock. In any case the Intercity ones seemed to sell out much faster. If the Danes have any sense - which I sometimes wonder given some of their model selections - they'd park the slow selling issue as mainly down to the market at that time not being ready. Hell, if Hornby with their kettle fetish and near bankruptcy have committed serious money to an 87, then that should be enough to convince the Danes they were a bit too early to market.

 

However, I can't help thinking the product planners at Heljan, whose decisions seem to wander wildly all over the place like a drunk in charge of a shopping trolley, have moved onto freak kettles and O gauge, with a few re-runs of things like the 33 to keep them ticking over.

Heljan UK planned the class 86 when then prototypes were about to be replaced and there was no other current model available representing the multitude of liveries. The model was produced in its final body style because that was the current trend.

 

True, the production run took longer to sell than the diesel range, but it did sell out. None of the other manufacturers can claim that electric locomotives are fast sellers either and that may be something to do with all the overhead equipment that is required to make a true representative of the prototype.

 

I think the planners at Heljan do enjoy the occasional tipple though.....................usually to keep sanity after picking the pieces out of posts similar to the one posted today.........but obviously their model selections can't have been that unsuccessful because they sell out.

 

The new product selection of today is more of a difficult task because most of the 'popular' subjects are either already done or difficult to research, especially where no prototype exists. There are also a larger number of manufacturers/retailers introducing models to the market in what is a diminishing hobby overall and Heljan have to look, like others are gradually doing, at other scales. What has been produced recently has been taken from requests, polls, research and the availability of material................and yes some of it has been diverse............but it sells.

 

We have never had the selection in this sector of the hobby as good as it is now so who cares if a manufacturer 'wanders with a shopping trolley' to introduce something that pleases the majority and gives them enough return to be able to stay in business. The class 86 is not dead yet, the tooling is still there and obviously remains a popular choice in the electric prototype model department so who knows,..........................I remember hearing a manufacturer saying they wouldn't produce the 'Blue Pullman', but there we go, trends change.

[brushman47544]

I’m not surprised that the Heljan 86’s sold out eventually because there has been nothing else available, either as reruns in new liveries or from Hornby. But if Heljan does produce some more, I do think they would do well to make tooling changes to allow earlier pre-sectorisation liveries and to improve the grills on the sides of the loco. They were the deal breakers for me when the loco was originally released.

[gribble]

in the style of the BBC "reality check"...

 

Sure the 86's sold out. So does everything eventually. In this case they sold out 2.5 years after they were released when Hattons etc reduced their prices substantially. To illustrate the point, Hattons had the VT 86 in their sale in August 2012 for £52, a price no doubt many on RMWEB took advantage of and well done if you snagged a bargain. The RRP.... £134.95. Prior to this it was available at 30 to 40% off RRP for nearly 2 years. I haven't done a poll admittedly, but I think most people when asked what sold out means would suggest something that was highly sought after and flew off the shelves, like the LTM tube livery 66, or Dapols DRS 68's, not something that had its price cut by 60% to finally shift it from the shelves.

 

Given that the RRP hails from 8 years ago and most loco's have seen RRP increase 75-100% in that time, I kinda get why we haven't seen any more but I am disappointed not to have seen a re-run. I'd be genuinely amazed (and happy) if Heljan ever released any more in their main range. The only hope you would think is if the shop that recently off loaded its Ltd edition Heljan 58's on the cheap to Hattons were to commission a run. Oh...

 

*gribble*

[Ncarter2]

Does anyone know if it’s possible to obtain replacement pantograph for the 86 or is there a better scale version out there that could be made to fit?

[MGR Hooper!]

Does anyone know if it’s possible to obtain replacement pantograph for the 86 or is there a better scale version out there that could be made to fit?

Nope, you could always use a slightly under-scale Sommerfeldt one. I did a 3D printed one but that cannot go up or down, it's fixed.

[E3109]

The Heljan 86 is an appalling offering, unless all you care about is running qualities in which case it's excellent.

I spend the majority of my working life on or around these fine machines and can I just say is it any wonder that people still crave the 1981 Hornby version.

[jjb1970]

The biggest indictment of the Heljan model was that in many ways it was no better than the antiquated Hornby offering. True, the Heljan model had a much better mechanism and lovely under frame detail but the overall impression was poor.

[E3109]

Agreed to a point, Jjb1970 but the fact remains that the body of the old Hornby model is miles better than the Heljan blob.

 

Provided you file the door handles out

[MGR Hooper!]

The biggest indictment of the Heljan model was that in many ways it was no better than the antiquated Hornby offering. True, the Heljan model had a much better mechanism and lovely under frame detail but the overall impression was poor.

Agreed. There's no pointing having a model with a whole list of features/details when those features/details aren't replicated properly. So much effort went into something so poor and it was such a missed opportunity.