Mike at C&M Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Waiting on the e-mails this morning is an announcement from Kim at Heljan to say that they are well advanced with development for a model of DP2 in 'OO' scale, and they expect delivery later on this year. Two versions are announced: 4010: Early BR green livery 4011: Later BR green livery No hint of a recommended price at this point Mike C&M Models Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted January 6, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2011 Blimey, now which will be the one to get - Heljan or Dapol? It's got to be one of them..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Accurascale Fran Posted January 6, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2011 Just saw this myself, hells bells! If it shapes up as well as the forthcoming O gauge Deltic (bar the side grill of course) then it might be very good. Looks like it'll be out before Dapol's too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan452 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Waiting on the e-mails this morning is an announcement from Kim at Heljan to say that they are well advanced with development for a model of DP2 in 'OO' scale, and they expect delivery later on this year. Mike C&M Models More duplication............................... (currently 34 pages on this subject matter and price rises on the Hornby 2011 thread). Remembering we are talking about a one off prototype (which is not a household name like Tornado). Wouldn't it have been been nicer in these straightened times for Heljan to have put the effort in-to improving/correcting some of their existing models i.e. the Class 86 and Class 33/0? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Accurascale Fran Posted January 6, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2011 More duplication............................... (currently 34 pages on this subject matter and price rises on the Hornby 2011 thread). Remembering we are talking about a one off prototype (which is not a household name like Tornado). Wouldn't it have been been nicer in these straightened times for Heljan to have put the effort in-to improving/correcting some of their existing models i.e. the Class 86 and Class 33/0? As the orignal email from Heljan says they are 'well advanced' with the model and the fact that DP2 wont be in the Dapol catalogue this year suggests that the duplication was unintentional. If you think about it such things can easily happen. As for the 34 pages about such matters on the Hornby thread I dont think the B1 could be classed as duplication as the existing model is overdue an upgrade and is a nightmare to DCC, and Tornado is a railroad cash-cow. However, that's something that will bring this thread off topic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 ... If it shapes up as well as the forthcoming O gauge Deltic (bar the side grill of course) then it might be very good. Looks like it'll be out before Dapol's too. More duplication. Remembering we are talking about a one off prototype (which is not a household name like Tornado)... But Heljan will have the overall shape of the body form for their class 55 in O, and may well plan to offer the DP2 in O as a variant eventually. It is not duplication as there is no RTR mass-produced model available in OO, so may as well use the research. Since DP2 is at least as well remembered as Falcon and Kestrel, and these must have sold in volumes to make continuing with prototypes worthwhile to Heljan, it must look like a good move from their POV. Why not press on and offer a Deltic in OO? The available models are not without their critics, and the original two tone green without yellow panel version has never been offered. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted January 6, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2011 As the orignal email from Heljan says they are 'well advanced' with the model and the fact that DP2 wont be in the Dapol catalogue this year suggests that the duplication was unintentional. Odd in that case that they did not "come out" after Dapol announced theirs at Warley, might have saved Dapol a couple of months R&D should they decide to pull the plug? Delaying the Heljan announcement would surely have made it more likely that Dapol will carry on and produce their version? Seems a bit odd to announce now IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Accurascale Fran Posted January 6, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2011 Odd in that case that they did not "come out" after Dapol announced theirs at Warley, might have saved Dapol a couple of months R&D should they decide to pull the plug? Delaying the Heljan announcement would surely have made it more likely that Dapol will carry on and produce their version? Seems a bit odd to announce now IMHO. Why would Heljan want to save a competitor time and money? They are a competitior after all, like any other business in any other industry. I'm sure if Heljan are telling the truth about it being 'in an advance stage of development' then they would've had to contemplate Dapol's announcement (which I'm sure took Heljan by suprise, as it did us!) before deciding to press on or pull the plug themselves. I am amazed by the outcry that comes when two companies announce or produce the same loco or rolling stock. Surely it pushes up standards and allows for a more competitive price for the customer? May the best model win I say! The public will vote with their wallets in the end. Both manufacturers will work to get it as bang on as possible as a result, meaning we should get a top drawer model from at least one of them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
00ERmissus Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I am amazed by the outcry that comes when two companies announce or produce the same loco or rolling stock. Surely it pushes up standards and allows for a more competitive price for the customer? May the best model win I say! The public will vote with their wallets in the end. Both manufacturers will work to get it as bang on as possible as a result, meaning we should get a top drawer model from at least one of them. It does seem a strange decision but if Heljan have been working on DP2 for some while, then it would appear they got in there first. Let’s be fair here, on the one hand we hear complaints about models being announced and then not appearing for a year and a lot longer in some cases and then conversely, annoyance that a manufacturer has kept quiet about it until they are ready to give a more accurate and closer delivery date. I agree that if two companies decide to go ahead and produce the same model, however obscure, it will hopefully lead to a better deal for the consumer in terms of cost levels and accuracy of the finished article. It’s up to them to decide if the market can stand two versions as with the LMS twins. Time will tell but it would be nice to see even just one of the promised Dapol RTR ‘00’ scale locos on the shelves after such a long wait!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Odd in that case that they did not "come out" after Dapol announced theirs at Warley, might have saved Dapol a couple of months R&D should they decide to pull the plug? Delaying the Heljan announcement would surely have made it more likely that Dapol will carry on and produce their version? Seems a bit odd to announce now IMHO. Not in the slightest, they are operating from the Dapol playbook, G Smith as reported by C Leigh in MR 8/2007: "If it hasn't been made, we will consider making it irrespective of previous announcements promising to release models at an unspecified date in the future; no business can operate with restrictions placed upon it by any competitor. From this year onwards, NOTHING is taboo for Dapol." What is sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raffles Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Here is a link to the horse's mouth, so to speak: ClicketyLink Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliepetty Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Here is a link to the horse's mouth, so to speak: ClicketyLink Looks like Heljan 1, Dapol 0. Quality of end product from either 'Uncertain'. Told you there would be more duplication, with yet more to come, how can loco's of 'Modern Lima Quality' cost £140.00. Just a rip off I am afraid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Hmmm, thing is, Heljan need to pull the stops out this time, after the Class 17 debacle and the more then Lukewarm response to the 86. Maybe they need to start thinking about etched grilles and the like, or offer their products at a lower price. I fear they're starting to slip behind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Are they still assembling their 'kits' in Denmark? I assume they are a bit hampered with Danish labour still being a bit more than Chinese. A high price for the prototypes was justified when it was short run but if Dapol don't concede here they may end up in bargain bins faster than Kestrel and the weathered blue Falcon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigherb Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I didn't see it mentioned anywhere is this a limited run model like the other prototypes? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 how can loco's of 'Modern Lima Quality' cost £140.00. Just a rip off I am afraid. ...is a sentiment that I don't feel I can let go unchallenged. Modern Lima Quality? No, doesn't compute. £140.00 - rip off? To whom? See Hornby 2011 thread for full discussion of pricing, marketing and so on to debunk the 'rip-off' myth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 64B Posted January 7, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 7, 2011 If it looks as good as their O gauge deltic, I will be happy to buy one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I still remain firmly of the opinion "wait and see before choosing", but gut feeling is that based on Dapol reputation over many years, the Heljan will be superior. Note - I didn't say perfect! Heljan have made fairly consistently a higher quality product, particularly in the chassis area (class 17 initial release excepted),though each model has its foibles. And some of the "finesse" may not be the latest, such as etched grilles. Dapol have however to overcome a legacy of old, probably one that exists because of the early days policy of buying defunct ranges and re-issuing them (H-D/Wrenn etc); these were obviously to older standards at the time of re-issue. I was hopeful that the "new Dapol" was turning the corner; look at the CAD images for the new releases coming up for instance. However, one of the 1st of this new generation is the Stove R, with all its inherent faults. Sign of things to come or not? Like I said, an open mind until release dates. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Hmmm, thing is, Heljan need to pull the stops out this time, after the Class 17 debacle and the more then Lukewarm response to the 86. Maybe they need to start thinking about etched grilles and the like, or offer their products at a lower price. I fear they're starting to slip behind. It depends on area of interest, and thus what you purchase, that makes a perception . Those who have the class 35 or the class 15 may feel differently. The latter of those two was the first to fit my interest, and I would rate it as on par with a Bach 20, better by far than a Hornby 30. It needed some adjustment to body fits to optimise appearance, but otherwise good all around. Looking forward to the class 23, and may even go for a DP2, although it is out of period for me. Actually it will be 'interesting' to see what Heljan decide on in the way of compromise to get DP2 round curves. Bachmann fitted narrower tread but correct diameter wheelsets at the outer ends, and raise the ride height to allow enough bogie swing for second radius on the class 55. The other option, seen on the DP1 model, was smaller diameter wheels which simply clear under the bodywork. Which way will Heljan go? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I was hopeful that the "new Dapol" was turning the corner; look at the CAD images for the new releases coming up for instance. However, one of the 1st of this new generation is the Stove R, with all its inherent faults. Sign of things to come or not? Like I said, an open mind until release dates. Here here !! I too was prepared to put my justifiable prejudices aside and I have ordered the two Dapol diesel hydraulics; (though I'd have been happier if they were to be Bachmann products). When it came to 10000 / 10001, I was relieved when Bachmann entered the fray and I changed my order to their product, even if it does arrive second. A green 10203 has such appeal to me that it has been ordered; not without some trepidation though. I suspect that we 'baby boomers' are the principle target for these early sixties items, not least because we are at the stage of maximum disposable income. I and many of my contemporaries are in the happy position of being able to order all of these goodies, despite prices that constantly 'push the bar'. However, we will only continue to do so if we feel that we are getting value for money. I am confident to order the Heljan DP2 as I have been satisfied with all of their foregoing diesel prototypes. They have also demonstrated a willingness to put things right when things go wrong. However, I'm afraid that the confidence with which I ordered the items from Dapol is rapidly seeping away; especially after the STOVE R debacle. The price for this item is definitely 'pushing the bar', but the number of basic errors in the model defies belief. None of the 'design compromise' excuses put forward for this ring true, as has been demonstrated by purchasers who have taken the trouble to modify the product. We are now told that an article will be published to tell purchasers how, in their own time and at their expense, to rectify a faulty product !! (Of course, you have to buy the magazine in order to be told how to do this). If Dapol wish to be taken seriously, they must now take a proactive stance in respect to the errors in this model and issue a recall for the STOVE R. Nothing else will restore faith in their ability to offer products in the same league as their competitors. In the meantime, all of my pre-orders for Dapol-produced models are subject to them being able to match the standards of their competitors. If not - back they go for a refund! Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
00ERmissus Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I didn't see it mentioned anywhere is this a limited run model like the other prototypes? The Heljan web site states that they: will produce both livery versions as limited editions and delivery can be expected in 2011 as development work on this model is well advanced. 4010 - English Electric DP2 prototype in early BR green livery 4011 - English Electric DP2 prototype in later BR green livery Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
00ERmissus Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 It depends on area of interest, and thus what you purchase, that makes a perception . Those who have the class 35 or the class 15 may feel differently. The latter of those two was the first to fit my interest, and I would rate it as on par with a Bach 20, better by far than a Hornby 30. It needed some adjustment to body fits to optimise appearance, but otherwise good all around. Looking forward to the class 23, and may even go for a DP2, although it is out of period for me. Opinions vary on individual Heljan products but I take my hat off to them for entering the ‘OO’ scale market and for arguably being the catalyst for the raft of prototype and if you like, less fashionable diesel/electric locos of the 50’s and 60’s. They took a gamble and so far, it has worked for them. Would we have seen these ‘obscurities’ otherwise? Would there be such fierce competition from the other manufacturers to fill the remaining gaps? I doubt it. I too am very pleased with my two CL15’s although I know the 17 has had serious issues. I also have a Kestrel & Falcon and agree that perhaps the finer detailing could/should be better but I’m not complaining. I’m certainly looking forward to the CL23 and the WuM Railbus too. On pricing, I think they’re much of a muchness really, perhaps marginally higher but by shopping around, reasonable discounts can be found. As for the DP2, I would be surprised to see the two manufacturers going head to head on this one but as per a previous post, let’s wait and see. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MikeParkin65 Posted January 7, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 7, 2011 Worst case scenario : Heljan do DP2 whilst Dapol swap to the Deltc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigherb Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 The Heljan web site states that they: will produce both livery versions as limited editions and delivery can be expected in 2011 as development work on this model is well advanced. 4010 - English Electric DP2 prototype in early BR green livery 4011 - English Electric DP2 prototype in later BR green livery Ta, still had to read it twice before I noticed it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Worst case scenario : Heljan do DP2 whilst Dapol swap to the Deltc No, worst case scenario is both decide to swap to the Deltic simultaneously which then leads to a second land grab by both for DP2... I think the likelyhood of us seeing a Deltic in 00 from one or both of Dapol and Heljan is pretty high now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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