SECR Birdcage Coaches

[Wickham Green]

 

I was hoping that the coaches would give a new lease of life for my Wrenn R1. Unfortunately it was a second hand one and the rear coupling had been glued on and the coupling fell off as soon as I attached it to the coaches. The Bachmann E4 was in better shape and with the coaches would look right on the Bluebell Line. I am not sure if the R1 ever pulled the birdcage coaches but it was in the right area.

60' Birdcage sets probably made it down to Folkestone Harbour at times so an R1 - or four - might be appropriate ..................... they were certainly in common use on assorted Sussex (etc.) branches where E4 haulage would have been normal - probably from mid-Southern days ( once most of the 'Brighton' stock had gone ) well into the fifties.

[gwrrob]

Out of interest are orders for these than contained the composite too being sent out with just the brakes for now ?

[Robin Brasher]

60' Birdcage sets probably made it down to Folkestone Harbour at times so an R1 - or four - might be appropriate ..................... they were certainly in common use on assorted Sussex (etc.) branches where E4 haulage would have been normal - probably from mid-Southern days ( once most of the 'Brighton' stock had gone ) well into the fifties.

R1 335 spent 67 years around Hastings and St Leonards sheds before being withdrawn in July 1955 as British Railways 31335. See picture on page 47 of South Eastern Steam by Rodney Lissenden. It may well have pulled birdcage sets but I have not seen any pictures of it doing so. It was in the right area.

[Andy Hayter]

Out of interest are orders for these than contained the composite too being sent out with just the brakes for now ?

 

I can only speak for Hattons, where they have given the option of immediate dispatch or wait until the composite is available (at a date they could not confirm).

[No Decorum]

Out of interest are orders for these than contained the composite too being sent out with just the brakes for now ?

I suppose it would depend on your retailer. I should imagine most would send them out to get the cash in and avoid getting confused by reserved stock sitting around. Mine should have been here today without the compo. *sniff*

[GreenGiraffe22]

On the topic of shades of olive green, I compared other Southern items against the Birdcage green and nearly everything looks to be in a slightly different shade to each other aha

 

 

 

 

 

 

I imagine all the yellow lining probably effects what shade the green appears too. I always thought the E4s looked way too dark, the one on the Bluebell is extremely light by comparison

Edited November 30, 2017 by GreenGiraffe22

[Nile]

Out of interest are orders for these that contained the composite too being sent out with just the brakes for now ?

 

Rails did. As they aren't charging postage on these orders it makes no difference cost-wise to us.

[Pre Grouping fan]

Same with the locos, nearly every SR loco I have is a different shade and thats about 6/7. Lighting probably affects how the colours look as well.

 

Apparently the bluebells loco olive green shade is incorrect but thats worth a different thread in its self

[Edwardian]

On the topic of shades of olive green, I compared other Southern items against the Birdcage green and nearly everything looks to be in a slightly different shade to each other

 

Good of the different manufacturers to co-operate in ensuring a prototypical lack of uniformity to Southern green(s)!

[phil-b259]

I imagine all the yellow lining probably effects what shade the green appears too. I always thought the E4s looked way too dark, the one on the Bluebell is extremely light by comparison

 

 

The conclusion I came to several years ago was that Bachmann's rendition of Olive Green was indeed too dark and that Hornby's attempt was far more accurate*. However....

 

....the colour of the lettering used by Hornby is far to pale - in this case Bachmann have got it right with the deeper yellow hue.

 

I seem to recall discussing this on one of the Taunton members days with Chris of Kernow Models and suggested that for his forthcoming O2 engine, he try and colour match the green to Hornby and the lettering to Bachmann - which is what they appear to have done.

 

 

* Based on the Maunsell locos at the Bluebell Railway

Edited November 30, 2017 by phil-b259

[Pre Grouping fan]

How does the birdcage green compare to the maunsell green uaed by Hornby?

[GreenGiraffe22]

How does the birdcage green compare to the maunsell green uaed by Hornby?

 

See my post above against a Hornby Maunsell & 2Bil, it's slightly darker, but not as dark as Bachmann's E4 or PLV which is a totally different shade to everything. Definitely more of a sheen on the birdcages too.

[Pre Grouping fan]

Suppose the 2bil and maunsells are the same colour. Prefer the finish on the birdcages. Hornby's stuff sometimes looks dull

[GNR Dave]

According to the guys at Warley, the olive comps won't be here 'til Jan/Feb 2018. The same source did expect the SECR liveried stock before Christmas though, which I found surprising. Happy if it happens though.

[Wickham Green]

I can only speak for Hattons, where they have given the option of immediate dispatch or wait until the composite is available (at a date they could not confirm).

.............. while pointing out that the brakes which you'd pre-ordered all those months ago could have sold out completely by the time the Compos reach these shores. ( I wonder how many people haven't ordered full sets ? )

[Wickham Green]

R1 335 spent 67 years around Hastings and St Leonards sheds before being withdrawn in July 1955 as British Railways 31335. See picture on page 47 of South Eastern Steam by Rodney Lissenden. It may well have pulled birdcage sets but I have not seen any pictures of it doing so. It was in the right area.

Don't forget the R1 was basically a shunter : there's no doubt it would have handled birdcage stock on a daily basis - but not in passenger traffic other than, perhaps, when something else had failed.

[IWCR]

SR  Olive  Green  did  vary.

The early  green  followed  on  from  the  LSWR  electric  stock  green. 

At  a  later  date this  was  replaced  with  a  slightly  darker  shade. 

Added  to  this  was  the  practice  of  periodic  revarnishing  which  also  had  the  effect  of  darkening  the  colour.

Then  the effect  of  weathering  and  sunlight  which  takes  out  some  of  the  yellow  from  the  olive.

Lettering  was  Gold  Leaf,  this  is  very   bright  when  new  but will  look  different  depending  on  lighting  conditions.

Again  revarnishing  will  dull and darken  this.

These  carriages  do  look  good  in  the  photos.

 

Pete

[pete_mcfarlane]

Don't forget the R1 was basically a shunter : there's no doubt it would have handled birdcage stock on a daily basis - but not in passenger traffic other than, perhaps, when something else had failed.

The Stirling R and R1 classes seem to have hauled passenger services on the Elham Valley and Sandgate lines, back in SECR days. But those services would have been formed of much older stock than these Bachmann coaches. 

[Wickham Green]

The Stirling R and R1 classes seem to have hauled passenger services on the Elham Valley and Sandgate lines, back in SECR days. But those services would have been formed of much older stock than these Bachmann coaches. 

No to mention their monopoly on the Canterbury & Whitstable, of course ............. I've always wondered what the thinking was behind building them with 5' wheels : as such they should have been quite capable mixed traffic branchline machines - especially with the 'H' boiler ........ maybe the 'front end' was too restricted ?

[Thebigshot]

Hi Guys

 

I have recived my birdcage coaches and how good do they look behind the N class what a stunning train lol although one of the 3 coaches didn't have battery boxes that was a surprise it just gose to show you learn something new every day

 

Thanks

Alan

[it's-er]

Today, and today only, Rails Advent offer is for 3 BR Crimson Birdcage coaches reduced from RRP £179.85 to £134.50 - see

https://railsofsheffield.com/advent-calendar

 

John S

[Guy Rixon]

No to mention their monopoly on the Canterbury & Whitstable, of course ............. I've always wondered what the thinking was behind building them with 5' wheels : as such they should have been quite capable mixed traffic branchline machines - especially with the 'H' boiler ........ maybe the 'front end' was too restricted ?

 

 

I always assumed that they were based on the O class and that the Os had large wheels for the faster goods services. Bear in mind that the SER had express goods-services in which the wagons were fitted for fast running.

 

At one stage Rs were used as carriage pilots to Cannon Street and Charing Cross. They were taken off that duty after one failed to stop an ECS train and hit the buffers at Charing Cross; 0-6-0 tender engines were then rostered. That change was before the Trio-C coaches appeared, IIRC.

[Thebigshot]

Today, and today only, Rails Advent offer is for 3 BR Crimson Birdcage coaches reduced from RRP £179.85 to £134.50 - see

https://railsofsheffield.com/advent-calendar

John S

Hi

 

That's not a lot off compared to the normal price rails are charging I only payed £143.50 ant that was with next day delivery but still an excellent price

 

Thanks

Alan

[JSpencer]

No to mention their monopoly on the Canterbury & Whitstable, of course ............. I've always wondered what the thinking was behind building them with 5' wheels : as such they should have been quite capable mixed traffic branchline machines - especially with the 'H' boiler ........ maybe the 'front end' was too restricted ?

Not entirely. Stirling O class were used with short chimneys on the line for a while (long before BR days though). And yes, both O and R classes had the same chassis and boiler (even when converted to R1 and O1 respectively).

[Robin Brasher]

Hi

 

That's not a lot off compared to the normal price rails are charging I only payed £143.50 ant that was with next day delivery but still an excellent price

 

Thanks

Alan

I don't think that the crimson birdcage coaches are selling as well as the Maunsell green ones. At the Swanage station shop there are about four crimson sets left whereas there is only one pair of Maunsell green brakes although the Maunsell coaches are more expensive. I wonder what the demand will be for the SE&CR birdcage sets.