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Wagon Wheels - a beauty contest (and an annoucement)


magmouse

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[There is quite a lot of back-story to this post - feel free to skip to the bit about wheels if you want just the nitty gritty!]

 

Like many modellers, I suspect, I spend time pondering what my priorities are, what I want from my hobby, and how to get the most satisfaction within the constraints of time, money, space, skills, and so on. This post then, is not about something I have already made, presented as a piece of 'finished' work. Rather, it's about why I am here and where I am going, in both philosophical and practical terms. It's also about wagon wheels.

 

I became a railway modeller as a boy, as a natural progression from a train set (my joint best toy alongside Lego). My Dad and I developed the hobby together, first with an OO GWR layout in the loft, never finished due to a house move. Later as a teenager I got into 1970s BR - recent history at the time - in EM and then P4. Meanwhile Dad progressed to 7mm scale, still GWR, never building a layout but making stock and scenic items for a couple of club layouts. For me, life, work and family intervened, and modelling stopped for a long time, though there was some intermittent work on a garden line in 16mm scale.

 

When I decided to get back into the hobby around 18 months ago, I knew I wanted to work in 7mm scale, having enjoyed seeing my Dad's models, and sharing his love of wagons. I also knew I wanted to model the late Victorian or Edwardian period, for essentially aesthetic reasons. Although Dad had sold off most of his stock when he moved into a flat towards the end of his life, I still have a couple of items that he kept, including a Dean Goods -

 

pic01.jpeg.fc6df98cc0c4fe4984a32403a94797c9.jpeg

 

 - and a PO coal wagon - more of which in an upcoming post.

 

The Dean Goods became a guiding factor in my plans. The livery is 1906, with 'Great (garter) Western' on the tender, which, together with the putative red-to-grey wagon livery change of 1904, set my modelling date at 1908. The Dean Goods would thus be feasible in the 1906 livery, and a mix of red and grey wagons would be appropriate. It steered clear of the all-brown and lake coach liveries, which I don't care for, and was still early enough to plausibly allow some 1, 2 and 3 plank wagons in small numbers. And of course, I would be modelling to O gauge finescale standards, because that is what the Dean Goods is.

 

A year or so went by, with me happily building wagons and learning more about my chosen period with all its nuances and intricacies. I started gradually to develop a backstory - Netherport - to accommodate what I want in a layout. No rush - our current house, at least as currently configured, has no room for a layout, but that is fine - I like making wagons.

 

Then two things happened to disturb my equilibrium. Firstly, I put up a display cupboard for the wagons to go in, so they could be on show but protected from the dust. Naturally, I got the Dean Goods out of its box and added it to the display. A while later, in an idle moment, I found a bit of O gauge track, wired it up to an ancient H&M Duet controller, and put the loco on it. Given it hadn't run for 10+ years, it was OK. A clean of the wheels and track, and it was passable, if not great. The gears were noisy and it sometimes needed a nudge to start, suggesting pickup issues.

 

I took a look underneath. Construction was fairly basic, typical of a kit-built loco of its era. The gears and bearings looked worn, and the pickups appeared rather rudimentary. There was quite a lot of 'slop' in all the moving parts - a testament to its history of putting in the miles on a club layout. None of these things are impossible to fix, but... 

 

Decades ago, I had taken the Hornby 'Britania' that was the pride of my childhood trainset, and attempted to convert it to EM, using Sharman wheels. I was way too inexperienced and unskilled for such a project, and I abandoned the attempt, but not before the loco was in such a state it could never return to its original condition. I had lost something of significant sentimental value, and gained nothing other than a painful life lesson. I wasn't going to make the same mistake with the Dean Goods - it has earned its retirement.

 

The second thing that happened was that, in the comments section of a blog post, I mentioned I had once modelled in P4. Mike @airnimal said he was a little surprised that someone who once modelled in P4 would not adopt S7 standards when moving to 7mm scale. I didn't mention the story of the Dean Goods, and made some excuse, but it got me thinking.

 

And not just thinking - fretting. If the Dean Goods is going to be a shelf queen, then I am no longer tied to period, railway company or track and wheel standards. Except, of course, I have the 13 wagons I have built over the last year and a half, with FS wheels, and none of them designed to have the wheels removed or replaced. Unlike the pinpoint axles used in 4mm scale, the 7mm scale axles have long journals and deep bearings, making it pretty much impossible to spring the wheel sets out without causing major damage.

 

There followed a period of reflection, and looking at forums, websites, photos of models, my own models... I have several times decided that, on balance, I am happy with finescale standards. I told myself that narrowing the gauge to 31.5mm, at least through pointwork, allows good-looking track, and it isn't as if the gauge difference is huge, unlike the change from OO to P4. My fretting became focused on the appearance of wheels...

 

With a couple of wagons on the bench in mid-construction at the stage where wheels must be fitted, I have decided I need to make a decision, once and for all. I have therefore been paying a lot of attention to wheels. Mainly wagon wheels. A complicating factor is that - even leaving aside the formation of the flange and tyre, not all wheels are made equal. Slaters are the primary source of S7 wheels, but looking at the finescale ones, the Peco wheels are nicer in terms of delicacy of the spokes and a slightly more subtle flange. Would Slaters S7 wheels be an unequivocal improvement over Peco FS, and what about other makes?

 

There was only one choice - a wagon wheel beauty contest. The credit card was flexed and wheels ordered or dug out of stock:

 

  1. Slaters FS
  2. Peco FS
  3. 51L / Wizard FS
  4. Slaters S7

 

(all plain spoke 3'1.5" wagon wheels)

 

And here they are, lined up for the pageant, in the order listed:

 

pic02.JPG.bac47c5d32ce2b285de6485af02df1e5.JPG

 

521863928_WheelComparisonthree-quarterview.png.8bd0b8bd7cd9542e8dc05059e04f37cb.png

 

1982045915_WheelComparisonaxleview.png.19efe6f1db6a996823a19c52a72f231d.png

 

And a reminder of what we are aiming for:

 

pic05.jpeg.415054aa8b3375adc7f1df1f9cd68628.jpeg

 

So what do we notice?

 

Slaters FS

  • heavy looking tyre
  • the spoke moulding looks quite delicate from the front, but it is deep, so when looked at obliquely the effect is heavy and way over-scale.
  • there is a wide range of types available
  • wheels feature free rust, available to 'special' customers only

 
Peco FS

  • even heavier tyre
  • slightly more subtle flange profile than Slaters FS
  • much better spokes - more rounded and delicate
  • only available as plain spoke and disk, in 3'1.5" size

 

51L / Wizard FS

  • nice, delicate tyre (though the improved appearance is partly down to the chemical blackening and the pronounced chamfer on the front edge of the tyre)
  • delicate spokes when seen from the front, but they are deep, like the Slaters
  • only available as plain spoke, open spoke, and 3-hole, in 3'1.5" size

 
Slaters S7

  • subtle flange profile, of course, being S7
  • thinner tyre than Slaters FS, with a narrower tread as per S7 standards
  • more delicate spokes than Slaters FS, though still lacking the rounded profile of Peco, and still quite deep.
  • wide range of types available

 
So the category winners are (judged very subjectively by me!):

 

Best tyre profile - Slaters FS (with Wizard getting an honourable mention)

 

Best spoke profile - Peco FS

 

Best available range - Slaters (tie between FS and S7)

 

For me, not having seen the Slaters S7 wheels 'in the metal' before, they are better than I was expecting - the difference between them and the Slaters FS wheels is more than just the flange profile. The tyre is thinner, and the centre moulding is more subtle. The Peco spokes are better, but for overall effect it has to be the Slaters S7 - and of course Slaters have the range to bring that benefit to all stock, not just conventional wagons with plain-spoked 3ft wheels.

 

So here is the announcement (did someone at the back say 'about time'?):

 

I'm 90% sure I am converting to S7.

 

Actually, I am 100% sure, because I know if I don't I will regret it, and the decision needs to be made now. So that's it, decision made.

 

Although, I have pretty much no idea how I will convert the existing stock. I will go into more detail on that another time, but I know I will be needing all the experience, knowledge and moral support folks can bring to bear on the matter.

 

For now though, that's it - as always, all comments, indications that I am mad, indications that I was mad not to do it in the first place, and general ribaldry are welcome.

 

Nick.
 

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27 Comments


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They get to you, these S7 types... But from what I've seen, it's an inevitable outcome of your approach to modelling.

 

Mike @airnimal does some improvement work on the spokes of the Slaters wheels which I confess I've never paid a great deal of attention too but is said to improve the appearance.

Edited by Compound2632
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17 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Mike @airnimal does some improvement work on the spokes of the Slaters wheels which I confess I've never paid a great deal of attention too but is said to improve the appearance.

 

Yes, I've noticed he makes reference to that occasionally. I think it involves scrapping the corners of the spokes to reduce their depth and round them off a little. I'll have to try it.

 

Nick.

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Peco (Steve Haynes, Product / Marketing Manager)  said to me - in my capacity pre-Covid as S7 Technical Officer - that Peco bought 7mm wheels from Slaters.  In discussion with David White (Slater's supremo), at about the same time that I spoke with Peco, he said that Slater's supplied Peco with 7mm wheels...  not surprising as Parkside-Dundas used Slater's 0-FS and S7 wheels for the 7mm kit range.

 

I recollect that Webster's may have manufactured their own 7mm wheels before their range of 7mm kits was taken over by Peco.

 

 

regards, Graham

Edited by Western Star
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8 minutes ago, Western Star said:

I recollect that Webster's may have manufactured their own 7mm wheels before their range of 7mm kits was taken over by Peco.

 

I suspect the ex Webster kits are still supplied with those, and ex Parkside with Slaters. They are quite different once you start looking.

 

I was pleased to see how much thinner the tyres are on the S7 Slaters wheels compared to their FS wheels. Together with the finer flange of S7, it gets us reasonably close to the look of the prototype when seen in silhouette. I want to be able to have that slightly 'up on tip-toes' look of GWR 4-plank wagons!

 

Nick.

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The late Adrian Swain (ABS Models) was so precise in his opinions that he got banned on here! A few years ago he explained to me that he wouldn't use anything other than Peco wheels when suitable. 

 

Although I can understand standardising on one manufacturer's product from a consistency of running point of view I'm not convinced all plain spoke wheels are the same and a bit of variety wouldn't harm. Also, perhaps not so common as a wheel in comparison with split spoke wheels (which had lots of differences) or disc wheels https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/axleboxes

Admittedly the GWR did seem to use plain spoke wheels more than other companies. 

 

Paul Bartlett

Edited by hmrspaul
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35 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

The late Adrian Swain (ABS Models) was so precise in his opinions that he got banned on here! A few years ago he explained to me that he wouldn't use anything other than Peco wheels when suitable. 

 

Although I can understand standardising on one manufacturer's product from a consistency of running point of view I'm not convinced all plain spoke wheels are the same and a bit of variety wouldn't harm. Also, perhaps not so common as a wheel in comparison with split spoke wheels (which had lots of differences) or disc wheels https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/axleboxes

Admittedly the GWR did seem to use plain spoke wheels more than other companies. 

 

Paul Bartlett

 

That's interesting about Adrian's views. Before making the Big Decision to go S7, I was thinking of standardising on the Peco wheels for anything needing 3'1.5" plain spoke. Peco do a 3-hole disc, which is not much use for my 1908 period, but nothing else, so it would still be Slaters for anything larger, Maunsell, etc. The Peco wheels still have a rather over-large tyre thickness, though, which of course compounds with the over-scale flange in SF standards to make the wheel look too heavy, even though the spokes are nice.

 

Nick.

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58 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

plain spoke wheels [--] perhaps not so common as a wheel in comparison with split spoke wheels (which had lots of differences) or disc wheels https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/axleboxes

Admittedly the GWR did seem to use plain spoke wheels more than other companies. 

 

The balance depends on period, I'm sure, nevertheless I find it a rather doubtful conclusion. The Midland, along with the Great Western, was predominantly a user of solid spoked wheels; the LNWR and NER were largely split-spokers - so that's about half-and-half among the pre-grouping "big four". Disc wheels were rather a late innovation - certainly irrelevant to @magmouse's 1908 date. It comes down to knowing the practices of the particular railway company or private builder.

 

I see that Slaters offer both solid and split-spoke types; what about Peco and Wizard? (Looking at the Wizard website, the only product in the "wheels &c" category I find for 7 mm scale is bearings.)

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50 minutes ago, ianmaccormac said:

You don't seem to have considered Alan Gibson, Peartree or Roxey suppliers??


Entirely selfishly, I only looked at manufacturers that make wheels I would use - Roxey and Peartree were ruled out because they don’t include spoked wheels, only solid discs. I could have included Alan Gibson, but I didn’t have any in stock, and the lack of web-based ordering put just a bit too much friction into the process for my inherent laziness…


Nick.

 

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47 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I see that Slaters offer both solid and split-spoke types; what about Peco and Wizard?


Peco do plain spoke and 3-hole disc - no split spoke. Wizard do all three, plus disk and Mansell in 3’7.5” size. I think they are a good option if you are happy with them being blackened, and with the quite heavy chamfer on the front edge of the tyre, which is not very prototypical but does give them a lighter look well suited to 19th century wagons, I feel.

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The balance depends on period, I'm sure, nevertheless I find it a rather doubtful conclusion. The Midland, along with the Great Western, was predominantly a user of solid spoked wheels; the LNWR and NER were largely split-spokers - so that's about half-and-half among the pre-grouping "big four". Disc wheels were rather a late innovation - certainly irrelevant to @magmouse's 1908 date. It comes down to knowing the practices of the particular railway company or private builder.

 

 

Ah but split spoke appear to have been more popular for Private trader wagons, and they were at least half the national fleet. Looking at my photos as linked to there aren't many plain spoke wheels. I do accept that the MR was also a user of plain spoke - including 3ft 6in. 

 

And I had no idea the discussion was limited to 1908, and I still don't understand if we are discussing FS or S7 wheels!

 

1 hour ago, ianmaccormac said:

You don't seem to have considered Alan Gibson, Peartree or Roxey suppliers??

 

 

Do Gibson still move easily on the axle, I had problems with them 30 years ago and soon gave up. Peartree seem to have unusually deep flanges; I used them to replace the wheels used in the Bachmann tank wagons (I suspect are US standards) because they didn't run well through Peco points and the replacements were little better. 

Heljan? Accurascale? 

 

Paul

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2 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

And I had no idea the discussion was limited to 1908, and I still don't understand if we are discussing FS or S7 wheels!

 

Well, the discussion started with my post, which was specific to the requirements of my circa 1908, mostly-GWR modelling, and what the options are (both FS and S7) that would result in improved wheel appearance on wagons. So we are discussing both FS and S7, which I appreciate is not relevant to everyone, since most 7mm scale modellers will be committed to one or the other. It was relevant to me, because I was at the crossroads. Hopefully the consideration of FS wheels, ignoring the S7 option, is of wider interest and value.

 

And like all such discussions, it has wandered a little...

 

Nick.

Edited by magmouse
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16 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

Ah but split spoke appear to have been more popular for Private trader wagons, and they were at least half the national fleet. 

 

Yes indeed; I withdraw.

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Nick,

 

GWR 1908 wagonary down by the sea-side might require a 3'1", solid spoke, 10 spoke wagon wheel...  and that appears solely in the Slater's range.  For example, the ballast hoppers to diagram P7.

 

Given that your blog post is - to my mind - about finding what appeals to you in regard to 7mm carriage / wagon wheels then I think that you have covered the most probable bases (especially if availability, consistency, range are valid criteria in the selection process).

 

I do not use Peartree or Roxey because I want pinpoint axles and spoked wheels.

 

I do not use Alan Gibson because of supply worries and loose tyres.

 

I do not use Wizard  as, I believe, there is no S7 option.

 

As for Dapol, Heljan, Accurascale...  there is no S7 interest from those manufacturers.

 

regards, Graham

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55 minutes ago, Western Star said:

GWR 1908 wagonary down by the sea-side might require a 3'1", solid spoke, 10 spoke wagon wheel...  and that appears solely in the Slater's range.  For example, the ballast hoppers to diagram P7.

 

Thanks, Graham - and I hadn't considered the need for a 10 spoke wheel. Was the higher spoke count on the same size wheel to do with weight capacity?

 

Nick.

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6 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Thanks, Graham - and I hadn't considered the need for a 10 spoke wheel. Was the higher spoke count on the same size wheel to do with weight capacity?

 

I gather that for locomotive wheels, the usual formula was one spoke per foot run, so 7 ft drivers had 21 or 22 spokes. For a 3' 1" diameter 8-spoke wheel, there's about 14.5 in run per spoke but for a 10-spoke wheel, 11.6 in - nearer the locomotive rule.

 

The Great North of Scotland used 9-spoke wagon wheels, giving 13 in run per spoke. Does anyone make 9-spoke 3' 1" wheels, in 7 mm or 4 mm?

 

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So, a back-of-the-envelope calculation:

 

10T open wagon, tare around 5T, total = 15T, or 7.5T per axle.

 

20T ballast wagon, tare - what, 8T? So something like 14T per axle - nearly double, and of the order of a loco.

 

Hmmm....

 

Nick.

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I've now had a proper read of your post (+ comments) and, as I gathered from a brief look, it's definitely about wheels... but with the added bonus of a serious change in approach, from FS "fine scale" 7mm/ft to Scale 7, Great! I'm not sure that wheels would have been my first problem with FS, there are other compromises which have bothered me more, for instance, loco frames compromised by the reduced wheelset back to back would be closer to the top of my list. However, I can certainly see your point and making a change now, before starting on a layout, seems pretty sensible (not mad or an opportunity for ribaldry). I don't think I'll be following that path though, much as I might like to:  I model far too slowly to think that I'd get very far starting again from scratch - not just the locos and other stock to alter or re-do but all that 31.5mm point and track work...

Kit PW

 

Edited by kitpw
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1 hour ago, kitpw said:

loco frames compromised by the reduced wheelset back to back would be closer to the top of my list.

 

And probably mine, if I had got as far as building or even starting a loco! I do have a kit for a 517 class in the cupboard, awaiting its moment...

 

I can also appreciate why for you it wouldn't make sense - too much already committed. And working in FS doesn't stop Swan Hill from being completely gorgeous and full of atmosphere.

 

Nick

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1 hour ago, magmouse said:

I do have a kit for a 517 class in the cupboard, awaiting its moment...

I'll look forward to that: if it's to the same standard as the wagons so well illustrated on your Netherport thread, it will be a treat. (And thanks for your kind comment about Swan Hill).

 

 

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Obviously Gibson   And I write as someone who has in the past had an inordinate amount of trouble prizing ordered wheels out of them

  Still worth it in the end though

 

Edited by 1ngram
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1 hour ago, 1ngram said:

Obviously Gibson   And I write as someone who has in the past had an inordinate amount of trouble prizing ordered wheels out of them

  Still worth it in the end though

 

 

Are you able to post a close up picture or two, so we can compare with the others?

 

Thanks - 

 

Nick.

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Welcome to the world of S7. 

 

Hopefully changing to S7 now will not cause to much stress to you in your plans. A bonus point is you can get 10% discount on your purchases from Slaters if you join the Scaleseven society.  

Personally the standard of your modelling cries out to be taken to the next level. It does of course bring its own problems especially with track layouts requiring more space than finescale but you will of course be familiar with that having previously worked in P4. 

 

Mike

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Thanks, Mike. My application for the ScaleSeven group has been sent in, and I am looking forward to getting involved with that. I am sure a large Slaters order will be submitted soon too, so the 10% will be handy.

 

I am not too worried about the space issue, because I am more a maker than an operator, so I will be content with simple track layouts. Also, modelling the Edwardian period helps with smaller wagons, coaching stock and locos that can negotiate tighter curves. I’m not envisaging any loco with outside cylinders or more than 3 axles.

 

Nick.

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