Oxford Rail announces - OO gauge Mk3 coaches

[Gerald Henriksen]

While I agree with earlier comments that the window frames do seem a little on the thick side, I have to disagree strongly with the 'Railroad' analysis, and to be fair it comes across as a bit of a blanket dismissal.  Having viewed the pre-production prototypes I have to say I was pretty amazed at the level of detail on these new models.

It is, regrettably, a blanket dismissal, in a large part because it means my hope of being able to model the HST are out the window.

 

That sort of error on a modern model is unacceptable.  It is not a case of either omitting a detail or molding on instead of a separate part for cost savings, it is plain and simple wrong, and follows the pattern of Oxford just not caring enough to get things correct.

 

And when you add things to a model that don't exist on the prototype, you can no longer consider the model to be a high quality accurate  model, which by default therefore means it is a Railroad level model.

 

so maybe it's simply something to do with the nature of the photographs of the painted examples...  don't forget that enlarged images of even the best models can be cruel, so maybe viewed in the flesh the frames might well be perfectly fine...

 

Yet the same "enlarged, cruel" images of the Bachmann Mk2f don't exhibit the same oversize windows frames...

 

And with regard to detail, well, just looking at the coach ends and to be absolutely honest the level of detail already appears to be a level above that of the yet to come Bachmann Mk IIf.  So again, I think the Railroad comments are highly misplaced...

 

Two points:

 

1) the Bachmann Mk2f's appear to have the body window frames correct, unlike the Oxford Mk3's, and unfair or not the Oxford window frames stick out like a sore thumb.

 

2) Bachmann made it clear that the Mk2f tooling is not yet finished, and that details still need to be added (in particular I believe some of the door outlines still need to be cut into the tooling.  So the Bachmann model will still be improved.  On the other hand, once you reach the painted sample stage (the Oxford Mk3) you are normally past the point of making any tooling changes.

 

I will agree however that the Oxford model does on the end appear to use a separate detail part where Bachmann have appear to have chosen to mold it on.

[Legend]

Bachmann mk 2 £70 and Oxford mk 3 £30 .

 

The Oxford mk 3 is not "railroad". However it has yet to appear, and shows no sign of being imminent,which is why I've gone down the Lima route for my ScotRail Mk3s . I think Gerald just demonstrates that there are various levels in the market, those that require total fidelity and lots of features and others that just require a dimensionally accurate but affordable model. Either is OK , however this insistence on bells and whistles and no compromises is just driving the costs up. I accept many want that but it is also deterring people from joining the hobby because it is so expensive.

[njee20]

Sand down the window frames if you’re that fussed!

[Rob F]

Bachmann mk 2 £70 and Oxford mk 3 £30 .

The Oxford mk 3 is not "railroad". However it has yet to appear, and shows no sign of being imminent,which is why I've gone down the Lima route for my ScotRail Mk3s . I think Gerald just demonstrates that there are various levels in the market, those that require total fidelity and lots of features and others that just require a dimensionally accurate but affordable model. Either is OK , however this insistence on bells and whistles and no compromises is just driving the costs up. I accept many want that but it is also deterring people from joining the hobby because it is so expensive.

I am not sure this is entirely fair on Gerald. A high spec, expensive model will have lots of separately applied parts and maybe intricate livery applications to attempt to justify the price, but the basic standard that any model must strive to attain is that it LOOKS right. Aside from the intricacies, a mark 3 coach is basically a slab sided box with 8 big holes in the side, therefore those holes should look like the ones on the real thing. I agree wholeheartedly that apart from this, the rest of the model looks fine, particularly at the price point it is being offered at, but it is such a shame that such a major part of the visuals of the coach seem to be amiss. It is even sadder that the flaw is through adding something that is not there, rather than missing something that is.

 

Rob

[adb968008]

I’m surprised no ones commented about the interior detail...

It looks, unlike most coaches, like a real interior...all that’s missing is a bunch of passengers crawling over luggage, and scruffy tables of food bags

[James90012]

Indeed I also think that this criticism has been rather harsh. I appreciate the noted issues with the tool (which aren't that significant for me), but it still looks far better than the Hornby offering, and is offered at a competing price. 

 

Sure, there is still a market for a 'top of the range' model, a-la the Bachmann MK2f, but that comes with a price premium. Oxford are not offering the 'definitive model' with all the bells and whistles (and cost) so it's unfair to judge it as such.

[wombatofludham]

Well, I'll be up for two rakes, one each in Blue/Grey and Intercity.  I'll also be up for an Inter City Executive rake if they do one, or t-cutting a second Intercity rake as appropriate.  Plus I'll want an additional RFM for the Bachmann  Mk2fs when they arrive.  To me they look fine and don't have any fictional Mk1 style underframes or missing roof vents to spoil the effect.

[tractor_37260]

The key point is that you can buy Hornby ones now. Despite being announced in 2015 Oxford still can't decide whether their Mk3s will have lights or not , which suggests they are no where near. I know some will be aghast, but when running round my layout the detail on Lima mk3s will do just fine. they at least have metal frames on windows like I remember Scotrail ones having

 

The Lima ones may have silvered window frames, but the frames are way over scale, on real MK3 ScotRail Exec livery coaches it's only the inside edge of the frame that's silver.  

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/151257534@N04/36331014833/in/album-72157688808442235/

[Legend]

The Lima ones may have silvered window frames, but the frames are way over scale, on real MK3 ScotRail Exec livery coaches it's only the inside edge of the frame that's silver.  

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/151257534@N04/36331014833/in/album-72157688808442235/

Thanks. They were a bargain @ 2 for £36. I'll review it again when(if) the Oxford Scotrail versions arrive. But for me they are good enough. I remember being wowed when the first Lima Intercity red stripe ones appeared in the 80s! They are going to run with a pair of Joueff ones I repainted back then , but have since been replaced by Lima/Hornby ones. By taking the red stripe off and replacing by blue I've managed to get a 4 car rake. Purists would be horrified but itll do for me at the moment behind my Bachmann 47.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Legend

[tractor_37260]

Thanks. They were a bargain @ 2 for £36. I'll review it again when(if) the Oxford Scotrail versions arrive. But for me they are good enough. I remember being wowed when the first Lima Intercity red stripe ones appeared in the 80s! They are going to run with a pair of Joueff ones I repainted back then , but have since been replaced by Lima/Hornby ones. By taking the red stripe off and replacing by blue I've managed to get a 4 car rake. Purists would be horrified but itll do for me at the moment behind my Bachmann 47.

 

Lima MK3's were always good for their time, and with some work work can be vastly improved, of particular note the windows, new EE frames and flush glazing, with the inner edges left silver/stainless steel, the Red lining also being better proportioned in depth compared to the photo of the OX Rail version above.

 

Model courtesy of Steven McNaught.................

[BigAndy]

Lima MK3's were always good for their time, and with some work work can be vastly improved, of particular note the windows, new EE frames and flush glazing, with the inner edges left silver/stainless steel, the Red lining also being better proportioned in depth compared to the photo of the OX Rail version above.

 

Model courtesy of Steven McNaught.................

 

That looks very nice indeed Tractor. It's amazing the difference to the Lima Mk3 some Extreme Etchings make, coupled with some laserglaze.

 

I've got a load of Joueff MK3a's that I've purchased over the years, in order to make some Edinburgh - Glasgow pushpull rafts. Admittedly, there is a fair bit of work involved with them, but they scrub pretty damn well considering the age of them and the B10 bogie representation is also very good.

 

As I say, the only downside is the sheer amount of work involved in getting them up to scratch, so I'm watching this thread about the OR 3a's with considerable interest, especially as it could mean the difference between doing some minor adjustments to the OR ones compared to getting knee deep in swarf with the Joueff ones.

 

I think I'm going to reserve any judgement until I can actually get one in my greasy mitt, so I can inpsect it in the plastic.....so to speak, although the level of detail that they already seem to have makes them a very attractive proposition indeed.

 

cheers

 

Andy

[Andrew F]

That Lima mk3 does look great. Like you Andy, I've been collecting Jouefs for a late 70's early 80's WCML rake and even without the EE frames they are a lot of work, taking off the mould lines etc and they can be quite brittle. I actually took the whole end off one just by removing one of the paint guide lines. One bonus with them if using the original frames is that they can be glazed easily as panes can be stuck behind the frame as it is thin. I think they actually look better than the OR coach in this respect and I don't know if I'm alone when I say it's really nice to have models that actually come your childhood, from the same era as the prototype and weren't made in China.

 

Modelling and detailing older coaches can be a cheaper option and is often pleasurable but even though I've payed as little as 2 quid for a Jouef, the cost soon stacks up with wheels/transfers/laserglaze if used etc.  There is the benefit of having all the livery shades standardised.

 

I'd say the price of the OR mk3 gives a little scope for some extra work for those that feel a bit dodgy about some aspects of it. Personally there's nothing about them that would put me off.

[Roy Langridge]

Sand down the window frames if you’re that fussed!

But we shouldn’t have to, not on a brand-new 2017 (2018?) model. A standard Mk 3 has 16 main windows, that is a lot of work per coach and I don’t have the time to do 20+ coaches.

 

But, as I have said, they may be better when released. It would be nice if Oxford kept potential customers in the loop more.

 

Roy

[njee20]

Yes, fine, everything should be perfect, but I don’t get people like Gerald saying “it’s a blanket dismissal” and his hope of building an HST is gone, based on some photos. It’s just a bit melodramatic for me.

 

Whilst that Lima mk3 is great the Oxford ones still look better to my eye, even with window frames that risk striking stock on parallel running lines (if comments are to be believed).

[ThaneofFife]

I’m surprised no ones commented about the interior detail...

It looks, unlike most coaches, like a real interior...all that’s missing is a bunch of passengers crawling over luggage, and scruffy tables of food bags

 

youre unlikely to appreciate that detail if the coaches are not to be fitted with lighting as per those early photos. the slight window tint will in natural daylight hide much of painted interior.

 

sanding down the window frames is a silly suggestion and another throwaway remark ill though out.  the coaches would then need at least a partial repaint so not really workable and given that most will be running decent rakes....who has time to fettle all those coaches?  it should be right from the box this particular detail. if you go back to the argument about price differential between the £30 OR Mk3 and a £70 Bachmann Mk2f think of this....you buy your cheap £30 coach and get the sander out.  open up the coach and remove the glazing and interior then sand down the frames (all to the same level across all frames) then you buy your paints and stripes and decals and get to work building it back up......given that the Mk2f is likely to be discounted to £60-65 and the Oxford probably no less than £28 ish I would rather pay the higher price and have a grand model ready to plonk from the box that's right than have to faff about with rakes of Mk3s requiring heart surgery as soon as I take them out of their boxes.

 

Oh and that price differential that was mentioned in an earlier thread by another poster is not correct either because these coaches are not getting lighting at £30 whereas the £70 price highlighted for the Mk2f is for a dcc fitted coach with fully controllable lighting.  I believe the standard non dcc Mk2f coaches are around £45 equating to probably only a £10 differential to the Mk3 from OR after a small discount.  so that puts the kybosh on the argument of price differences.

[njee20]

I believe the standard non dcc Mk2f coaches are around £45 equating to probably only a £10 differential to the Mk3 from OR after a small discount.  so that puts the kybosh on the argument of price differences.

 

Since when did 33% mean 'no price difference'? If you sell something for £40 and I pay you £30, is that ok!?

 

My point about the window frames was that yes, they probably are a few thou too thick, but that really is it. If you're a true perfectionist then do some modelling and fix it. I just don't really get the handwringing sometimes around things that can be resolved if you think they're such a huge deal. But maybe that's just because I'm not seeing the window frames as that much of an issue. What if there's an error on the Bachmann mk2s? Do you dismiss those out of hand too? 

 

There are pretty much no models out there that are 100% perfect, there's always something amiss, whether it's a compromise because of scale, an intentional omission for ease on the manufacturers' part, or whether it's a mistake. To me, these look bloody good, and I think the price is very competitive for what looks like a very well detailed model. If you can't live with the window frames, don't buy them, but to dismiss them as a 'budget' model because of it is, in my opinion, misguided.

 

All that is completely moot of course, because I model in N, so we get the Dapol mk3 which doesn't look all that much like a mk3, with a 'lucky dip' approach to paint colours, too many bodyside steps, CDL lights on blue and grey coaches AND overscale window frames (I imagine, I CBA to check).

[BigAndy]

Hang on fellas, hang on a minute............

 

Having had as close a look as I can on the photos within this thread, I reckon that this sudden issue of the window surrounds is down to the fact that they are represented by one moulded rib. The Lima/Hornby Mk3's are no different and admittedly for a 21st century model the injection mould should maybe have been cut to represent what a real MK3 frame looks like, however, when the Lima MK3 has some flushglazing fitted, there's a huge difference.

 

A Mk3 frame has an outside edge which is riveted to the coach side all the way around the apperture, then the Inner raised section is what actually holds the glazed unit - it is this raised surface which is left in its bare alluminium state on the ScotRail livery. Unfortunately it would appear that OR have moulded their window frames in one piece, neglecting the lower outside section.

 

I'm pretty sure that this is what is giving the OR MK3 window frame a sense of being overscale - I would imagine it has been scanned/measured around the outside of the frame and then moulded all as one - unlike what Hornby did with their 2E and measured around the raised, inner surface and used that as the finished dimensions for the model, making the frames too small........ When OR produce the ScotRail version and paint a silver line on their frames, it's going to look wayyy too overscale...........unless of course they can print a fine silver line covering only half the frame - that would make a huge difference visually.

 

I guess it's going to be a case of suck it and see really. If you can overlook the moulding error or replace them with some Extreme etchings ones, this still looks as though it's going to be a very fine representation of a MK3. Personally, at under 30 quid a throw, I would have no issuues whatsoever of dunking them in the brake fluid and IPA baths, fitting the EE frames and then respraying them. Depending on how careful you are, you may even get away with a partial respray.

 

Of course, the other side to that argument is that respraying them would then match up exactly with all my other ScotRail stock I've amassed...........

 

cheers

 

Andy

[Roy Langridge]

Having had as close a look as I can on the photos within this thread, I reckon that this sudden issue of the window surrounds is down to the fact that they are represented by one moulded rib. The Lima/Hornby Mk3's are no different and admittedly for a 21st century model the injection mould should maybe have been cut to represent what a real MK3 frame looks like, however, when the Lima MK3 has some flushglazing fitted, there's a huge difference.

 

A Mk3 frame has an outside edge which is riveted to the coach side all the way around the apperture, then the Inner raised section is what actually holds the glazed unit - it is this raised surface which is left in its bare alluminium state on the ScotRail livery. Unfortunately it would appear that OR have moulded their window frames in one piece, neglecting the lower outside section.

 

I'm pretty sure that this is what is giving the OR MK3 window frame a sense of being overscale - I would imagine it has been scanned/measured around the outside of the frame and then moulded all as one - unlike what Hornby did with their 2E and measured around the raised, inner surface and used that as the finished dimensions for the model, making the frames too small........ When OR produce the ScotRail version and paint a silver line on their frames, it's going to look wayyy too overscale...........unless of course they can print a fine silver line covering only half the frame - that would make a huge difference visually.

 

Can't agree with you there - the frames stick out way to far - far beyond anything on the real model. Compare this post: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107460-oxford-rail-announces-oo-gauge-mk3-coaches/page-33&do=findComment&comment=2865381 with this photo https://www.flickr.com/photos/45726467@N02/15199311001 (not mine and the closest match I could find for angle).

 

The Mk3 frames are nearly flush and pretty much flat. The OR frames stick out more than the bevel around the CDL light and are taller than the roof ribs - on the real thing they are less than both.

 

Edit - fixed link

 

Roy

Edited October 6, 2017 by Roy Langridge

[Hilux5972]

You do realise the blue grey coach in that image is an old Lima one don’t you

[Roy Langridge]

You do realise the blue grey coach in that image is an old Lima one don’t you

 

No, it is a Jouef model and I think it was quite obvious that I was talking about the Oxford model which is the intercity version as I mentioned CDL lights, which didn't exist 40 years ago...

 

Roy

Edited October 6, 2017 by Roy Langridge

[Legend]

youre unlikely to appreciate that detail if the coaches are not to be fitted with lighting as per those early photos. the slight window tint will in natural daylight hide much of painted interior.

 

sanding down the window frames is a silly suggestion and another throwaway remark ill though out.  the coaches would then need at least a partial repaint so not really workable and given that most will be running decent rakes....who has time to fettle all those coaches?  it should be right from the box this particular detail. if you go back to the argument about price differential between the £30 OR Mk3 and a £70 Bachmann Mk2f think of this....you buy your cheap £30 coach and get the sander out.  open up the coach and remove the glazing and interior then sand down the frames (all to the same level across all frames) then you buy your paints and stripes and decals and get to work building it back up......given that the Mk2f is likely to be discounted to £60-65 and the Oxford probably no less than £28 ish I would rather pay the higher price and have a grand model ready to plonk from the box that's right than have to faff about with rakes of Mk3s requiring heart surgery as soon as I take them out of their boxes.

 

Oh and that price differential that was mentioned in an earlier thread by another poster is not correct either because these coaches are not getting lighting at £30 whereas the £70 price highlighted for the Mk2f is for a dcc fitted coach with fully controllable lighting.  I believe the standard non dcc Mk2f coaches are around £45 equating to probably only a £10 differential to the Mk3 from OR after a small discount.  so that puts the kybosh on the argument of price differences.

That assumes you find the model so offensive you have to do all that work. I'll bet many don't, are happy with them as they are and just buy them.

[ThaneofFife]

That assumes you find the model so offensive you have to do all that work. I'll bet many don't, are happy with them as they are and just buy them.

 

Youre terming them "offensive" when of course to some people they will be acceptable.  I think its a little churlish to stoop down to calling them offensive.  Wrong is not offensive, theyre just wrong.   If you owned OR no doubt you would be hoping and praying those less easily offended folk outweigh those that will not pay for them because of the error. 

 

as has been paralleled earlier, the frames should look nigh on flush to the bodysides.  From what Ive seen of the Mk2f coach frames Bachmann seems to manage it.

[ThaneofFife]

Since when did 33% mean 'no price difference'? If you sell something for £40 and I pay you £30, is that ok!?

 

My point about the window frames was that yes, they probably are a few thou too thick, but that really is it. If you're a true perfectionist then do some modelling and fix it. I just don't really get the handwringing sometimes around things that can be resolved if you think they're such a huge deal. But maybe that's just because I'm not seeing the window frames as that much of an issue. What if there's an error on the Bachmann mk2s? Do you dismiss those out of hand too? 

 

There are pretty much no models out there that are 100% perfect, there's always something amiss, whether it's a compromise because of scale, an intentional omission for ease on the manufacturers' part, or whether it's a mistake. To me, these look bloody good, and I think the price is very competitive for what looks like a very well detailed model. If you can't live with the window frames, don't buy them, but to dismiss them as a 'budget' model because of it is, in my opinion, misguided.

 

All that is completely moot of course, because I model in N, so we get the Dapol mk3 which doesn't look all that much like a mk3, with a 'lucky dip' approach to paint colours, too many bodyside steps, CDL lights on blue and grey coaches AND overscale window frames (I imagine, I CBA to check).

 

Do you not think the Bachmann coach given what we have seen so far is worth the extra £10 (setting aside its a mk2 and a mk3) and you've got the glaring error on every coach but pocketed a tenner on each one ?   The price of everything and the value of nothing springs to mind here.  Unless you are suggesting the Bachmann coach is about a tenner to expensive.......I'm not privy to your personal situation on price sensitivity but the point is these coaches are not correct. 

[Andy Mac]

Well it looks like a mk3, I'm sure the inter city livery will be tidied up before release, and sitting on my track I'm sure I'll be delighted with them... at normal viewing distances I'm not going to noticed the window frames... already we have the positive impact that Hornby have reduced their mk3's back to a more realistic price, though wither they are worth the reduced price is a matter of opinion. I'm looking forward to their release, though my credit card isn't.....

[Legend]

Youre terming them "offensive" when of course to some people they will be acceptable.  I think its a little churlish to stoop down to calling them offensive.  Wrong is not offensive, theyre just wrong.   If you owned OR no doubt you would be hoping and praying those less easily offended folk outweigh those that will not pay for them because of the error. 

 

as has been paralleled earlier, the frames should look nigh on flush to the bodysides.  From what Ive seen of the Mk2f coach frames Bachmann seems to manage it.

I don't find them offensive, but some who are contemplating grinding down window surrounds clearly do. For me I'm just fed up waiting with no news so have bought Lima in the interim, but the interim could be a long time.