hayfield Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 I tend to look at which shows C&L are attending to buy rail and lengths of track, but you must order a week before the show these days. The saving of postage pays for the entrance fee for the show, further buys from other traders pays for the petrol. Having said this E trading is the way forward, especially as business rates for shops are going through the roof For smaller items their postal rates are very good and exceptionally quick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted January 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2017 I have never seen rival makes in the stores, bar at shows, but Peco is stocked everywhere there are still model and toy stores, plus the mail order suppliers. I expect C&L will pick up a bit of extra points sales even with the Peco points, but only to enthusiasts. Your original comment. No way. but name the model shops in the SE or London that stock C&:L track parts......erhh,,,,,,,, good luck with the list! When you get an answer that doesn't fit your question you change the location Stevenage is hardly the SE Kent or Sussex, a good 132 mile round trip by rail from North East Kent. The closures around here are legion. No London Stockist for instance. In Medway and north Kent we had three, now long gone. If you wanted locations specific to Kent/Sussex then you should have asked in your original comment, I then wouldn't have wasted my time replying. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted January 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2017 With the comment that some of the manufacture of the turnouts might be hand assembly would that possibly lead to a little "fragility" ? If so, what turnout motors would Peco expect to work with the new product as the current solenoid motors have a bit too much 'snap/crash/bang' ......didn't they start selling servo motors? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 With the comment that some of the manufacture of the turnouts might be hand assembly would that possibly lead to a little "fragility" ? If so, what turnout motors would Peco expect to work with the new product as the current solenoid motors have a bit too much 'snap/crash/bang' ......didn't they start selling servo motors? Whilst Peco may have to use hand assembly during their production process, I doubt very much if they will sell point kits. Though they may sell the pre-formed rail as they do with the 7 mm spare parts Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 (edited) With the comment that some of the manufacture of the turnouts might be hand assembly would that possibly lead to a little "fragility" ? If so, what turnout motors would Peco expect to work with the new product as the current solenoid motors have a bit too much 'snap/crash/bang' ......didn't they start selling servo motors? Hi Dave They do sell servo motors (PSS125) but I'd be surprised if Peco deviate from the current arrangement of loose heeled switch rails and a sprung snapover mechanism. They'e used that for their 83 line and it's worked well for them since they first introduced Streamline in the 1960s. The entire switch assembly may well be identical to the current code 75 one in which the switch rails are not actually tapered rail but folded. That would make the switch rail- tie bar assemby the same so it should be fine with the current solenoid point motors. In my experience it's at the tiebar where turnouts tend to fail; Peco track and pointwork is notoriously reliable and I can't see them risking that reputation with their new bullhead range. Edited January 4, 2017 by Pacific231G 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 David In some ways I agree with you, why spoil a winning formula, Peco's announcement that it will be compatible with the existing range. But then who this time last year who would have expected flexi track in 4 mm scale 00 gauge, let alone promises of compatible turnouts. They may have a surprise or two up their sleeves Still the gene is out of the bag, if you go to the expense of using 00 scale plain track why would you want to use H0 scale turnouts and crossings Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 (edited) With the comment that some of the manufacture of the turnouts might be hand assembly would that possibly lead to a little "fragility" ? If so, what turnout motors would Peco expect to work with the new product as the current solenoid motors have a bit too much 'snap/crash/bang' ......didn't they start selling servo motors? If the force is too great then put a couple of 3 amp diodes in series with the coils, it will reduce the voltage and current. This assumes a CD unit in use, not just an AC output which may be high. Some CD units are adjustable as well. The number to use in series will vary it may need more than 2. The sprung Peco point only needs a small nudge, the solenoid does rather over do it. The hand assembly on the bullhead is not a weaker joint, just that the bullhead section is difficult to hold accurately in a mould, whereas the flatbottom locates better. Once assembled the durability is the same. Stephen Edited January 4, 2017 by bertiedog Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Still the gene is out of the bag Just wait till the genie follows it - we'll get double-slips, trap points, the works Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Your original comment. When you get an answer that doesn't fit your question you change the location If you wanted locations specific to Kent/Sussex then you should have asked in your original comment, I then wouldn't have wasted my time replying. I did not change location, and comments were aimed at the lack of shops in this area, not a serious point as there are no stockists of C&L, which I buy regularly by post as I am stuck at home due to ill health. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Further to the Peco problem with the solenoid based point motor, just tested on with Lab supply at 16 vac into a CD circuit that is typical of commercial units and it needed three diodes to reduce the power to a much lower level, two might work or you may need four, they are only a few pence on Ebay and the rating barely matters as they only face a short pulse, .5 amp, 500ma might object a bit! but general purpose 3 amp and above work and should never burn out. The Seep motor is slightly lower power anyway, but again can have diodes in the power line to the coils. you could use resistors, but they might burn out more easily. The other solution is to get a 10VAC transformer as this is enough to charge the CD unit capacitor at a lower level. This should work with any commercial CD unit, unless they have added extras like LEDs or a semi conductor output. Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted January 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2017 Further to the Peco problem with the solenoid based point motor, just tested on with Lab supply at 16 vac into a CD circuit that is typical of commercial units and it needed three diodes to reduce the power to a much lower level, two might work or you may need four, they are only a few pence on Ebay and the rating barely matters as they only face a short pulse, .5 amp, 500ma might object a bit! but general purpose 3 amp and above work and should never burn out. The Seep motor is slightly lower power anyway, but again can have diodes in the power line to the coils. you could use resistors, but they might burn out more easily. The other solution is to get a 10VAC transformer as this is enough to charge the CD unit capacitor at a lower level. This should work with any commercial CD unit, unless they have added extras like LEDs or a semi conductor output. Stephen Assuming that the current solenoid motors are too powerful for the proposed BH turnouts, wouldn't having to do as you suggest be at odds with the assumption that the turnouts are 'ready to lay' the same as the current range. Also there are quite a few in the hobby who are either not comfortable with or don't understand electrics. It could be that the new BH range is robust enough to cope. My own experience is of handbuilt turnouts which have quite an element of play until fixed, as the BH rail does not have the same strength as FB. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted January 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2017 The turnouts have not yet appeared and already experts on here are assuming that the current solenoid motors are too powerful. I think the reason for this and similar analysis of as yet unavailable products is a question that belongs to the "unsolved mysteries" thread. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted January 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2017 The turnouts have not yet appeared and already experts on here are assuming that the current solenoid motors are too powerful. I think the reason for this and similar analysis of as yet unavailable products is a question that belongs to the "unsolved mysteries" thread. I never claimed to be an expert but I posed the question as my experience of BH turnouts is that they are not as robust as FB and it's not recommended to use solenoid motors. The unsolved mystery for me is why some have to criticise others for having a discussion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted January 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2017 You have misunderstood Chris. There have been several posts querying the strength of the new points and I was referring to them in general and not your post in particular. As for your own question that would be an ecumenical matter. lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold sjp23480 Posted January 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2017 No way. but name the model shops in the SE or London that stock C&:L track parts......erhh,,,,,,,, good luck with the list! Hey Bertiedog, You could try the Model Shop in Woodchurch, between Ashford and Tenterden off the A28. In the past they have had track components from C&L, SMP point kits and flexible track in 00 and EM. They also stock DCC concepts, remaindered items from the Peco Individulay components range, as well as Tillig, Roco, Peco and Hornby as usual. Probably worth a call to the shop before making a journey to check what they have. No connection to the shop other than being a satisfied customer. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted January 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2017 You have misunderstood Chris. There have been several posts querying the strength of the new points and I was referring to them in general and not your post in particular. As for your own question that would be an ecumenical matter. lol Careful now.....don't go in there.... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Assuming that the current solenoid motors are too powerful for the proposed BH turnouts, wouldn't having to do as you suggest be at odds with the assumption that the turnouts are 'ready to lay' the same as the current range. Also there are quite a few in the hobby who are either not comfortable with or don't understand electrics. It could be that the new BH range is robust enough to cope. My own experience is of handbuilt turnouts which have quite an element of play until fixed, as the BH rail does not have the same strength as FB. Hand built turnouts are as strong as the builder makes them and if using solenoid motors in the past it is quiet easy to use a sprung steel wire as a damper, though most using hand built turnouts now use either servos or slow action motors I guess you are describing chaired turnouts when describing (side) play with bullhead track. I would expect Peco to use a turnout base which would eliminate this, there are various ways of eliminating this when building hand made track though The turnouts have not yet appeared and already experts on here are assuming that the current solenoid motors are too powerful. I think the reason for this and similar analysis of as yet unavailable products is a question that belongs to the "unsolved mysteries" thread. Colin, good healthy debate and you never know who are reading these threads. Some points may be taken into consideration during the design process I never claimed to be an expert but I posed the question as my experience of BH turnouts is that they are not as robust as FB and it's not recommended to use solenoid motors. The unsolved mystery for me is why some have to criticise others for having a discussion. Bullhead rail is more flexible than flatbottom, which can in some cases be a benefit. As said before strength of a turnout can be designed into the build/manufacturing process. The turnouts have not yet appeared and already experts on here are assuming that the current solenoid motors are too powerful. I think the reason for this and similar analysis of as yet unavailable products is a question that belongs to the "unsolved mysteries" thread. The current design of point motor fitting and tiebar arrangement does detract from the visual appearance, lets hope a new design is forthcoming and or a system designed for an easy to use servo system 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted January 5, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 5, 2017 Hand built turnouts are as strong as the builder makes them and if using solenoid motors in the past it is quiet easy to use a sprung steel wire as a damper, though most using hand built turnouts now use either servos or slow action motors The current design of point motor fitting and tiebar arrangement does detract from the visual appearance, lets hope a new design is forthcoming and or a system designed for an easy to use servo system I have seen solenoid motors used with handbuilt turnouts where there is an Omega (?) loop fitted, but this only really works where the motor is fitted to one side or some distance from the turnout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 I have seen solenoid motors used with handbuilt turnouts where there is an Omega (?) loop fitted, but this only really works where the motor is fitted to one side or some distance from the turnout. The old H&M motors were a favourite and could be used either under or on top of the board. If used under the board I used sprung steel wire (not too stiff) which could act as a damper, if used on top as said an omega loop in the connecting wire is best practice 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Bathurst Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Just an update, I emailed Peco about the point work, message below was their reply: ''Work is under way on the code 75 bullhead large radius points, and we hope to have these available in the spring.'' 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gismorail Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 In regard to the concern over the strength of any new Peco bullhead points and the different applications / types of point motor etc the simple answer would be to use the Meggapoint control system and use servo motors which work out at less then £2 per point. I know there is the cost of the Meggapoint control board to be added to this but is still the way ahead and a lot cheaper than any other slow motion point motor with out any possible damage to the point itself. I personally feel that there will not be an issue with the strength of any Peco product as their track record would indicate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BR(W) Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 "I personally feel that there will not be an issue with the strength of any Peco product as their track record would indicate." I see what you did there. Cheers, BR(W). 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PMP Posted January 5, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 5, 2017 The points will be hand made in the UK, and are designed to use existing Peco products for their actuation, so the PL10 and PL10E solenoid motors. The design uses the Unifrog system already included in some of Peco's ranges http://www.peco-uk.com/product.asp?strParents=&CAT_ID=3360&P_ID=18132 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold lakeview770 Posted January 5, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 5, 2017 I hope the build quality will be the same, as there code 75 range is getting harder to source I know of only 2 dealers who carry a decent range. For me its better than the offerings from Atlas and Shinohara and its ideal track in our sun-room. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted January 5, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 5, 2017 The old H&M motors were a favourite and could be used either under or on top of the board. If used under the board I used sprung steel wire (not too stiff) which could act as a damper, if used on top as said an omega loop in the connecting wire is best practice H&M point motors, I have heard of them but I never been able to buy them, are they still in production? If not when did they stop being made? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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