C&L Finescale

[Stephen Freeman]

Not sure I find it funny! . Surely if you must go to shows, at least pick ones that stand a good chance of showing a profit! I can't imagine many of the punters to that show being interested in trackwork, the show's name gives you a clue surely?

Edited June 1, 2018 by Stephen Freeman

[hayfield]

Stephen

 

Phil last year reviewed which shows he felt were worth going to, the DEMU was one he felt was worth going to. Mainy modellers go to high quality shows even when the subject is either a different scale or gauge or as in this case theme.  

 

Firstly good models are good models whatever region or era chosen with ideas and tips seen being transferable, more importantly shows like these normally attract the specialist traders

 

The only strange thing is Burton being 2 weeks away from the Great Central show 2 weeks later, though the same could be said about Epsom, Expo and Railex  all within 4 weeks of each other

 

As for contacting Phil, it does look like things have got better, whilst frustrating for some Phils quietly reducing the backlog, which in itself is freeing up time

[lyneux]

Not sure I find it funny! . Surely if you must go to shows, at least pick ones that stand a good chance of showing a profit! I can't imagine many of the punters to that show being interested in trackwork, the show's name gives you a clue surely?

 

As the organiser of DEMU Showcase, I find your remarks incredibly strange. Why on earth shouldn't track components appeal to D&E modellers any more/less than to non-D&E modellers? Over a third of the layouts at this year's show feature hand-built track in multiple scales/gauges.

 

I'm equally perplexed by the funny rating from 2ManySpams (been eating too much canned meat maybe?)!

 

Phil has been very supportive of Showcase over the past few years (as have the S4 society and the EMGS) and we welcome having track components for sale at the show. Track was a gap in our trader coverage until Phil started bringing the C&L stand.

 

Guy

Edited June 1, 2018 by lyneux

[2ManySpams]

As the organiser of DEMU Showcase, I find your remarks incredibly strange. Why on earth shouldn't track components appeal to D&E modellers any more/less than to non-D&E modellers? Over a third of the layouts at this year's show feature hand-built track in multiple scales/gauges.

 

I'm equally perplexed by the funny rating from 2ManySpams (been eating too much canned meat maybe?)!

 

Phil has been very supportive of Showcase over the past few years (as have the S4 society and the EMGS) and we welcome having track components for sale at the show. Track was a gap in our trader coverage until Phil started bringing the C&L stand.

 

Guy

Guy, funny as in one post said he didn't have a show this weekend, immediately followed by one which said he did. Just reinforces a lack of organisation at C&L IMO. I do hope Phil gets to grips with it though.

[lyneux]

I take your point, funny and worrying at the same time!

[Stephen Freeman]

Thing is which show do you think he'd find most profitable? There may be some layouts with hand-built track but I bet the majority of the visitors will be customers of Peco, though I do discern an upturn in the demand for Flatbottom Track to scale standards, perhaps makes Pecos decision on BH a little strange, perhaps they can do the same of FB in 4mm? Unlikely though.

[Revolution Mike]

Thing is which show do you think he'd find most profitable? There may be some layouts with hand-built track but I bet the majority of the visitors will be customers of Peco, though I do discern an upturn in the demand for Flatbottom Track to scale standards, perhaps makes Pecos decision on BH a little strange, perhaps they can do the same of FB in 4mm? Unlikely though.

 

I think the same can be said of any non-track gauge specific show (ie anything other than Scaleforums or ExpoEMs)!  

 

Cheers, Mike

[Ravenser]

Thing is which show do you think he'd find most profitable? There may be some layouts with hand-built track but I bet the majority of the visitors will be customers of Peco, though I do discern an upturn in the demand for Flatbottom Track to scale standards, perhaps makes Pecos decision on BH a little strange, perhaps they can do the same of FB in 4mm? Unlikely though.

 

That's digging the hole deeper I think. DEMU was founded by a group of P4/EM modellers who felt that EMGS and S4Soc were basically ignoring their non-steam members...  Although OO and N modellers are very much in the majority in DEMU , they tend to be a silent and unobtrusive majority . I can understand lyneux's feelings 

[Stephen Freeman]

I think the same can be said of any non-track gauge specific show (ie anything other than Scaleforums or ExpoEMs)!  

 

Cheers, Mike

Do you not think that the Gauge 0 show at Doncaster counts then? In any case I think they'd all be much happier with better Mail Order rather than multiple shows if they had to make a choice?

Edited June 1, 2018 by Stephen Freeman

[Revolution Mike]

Do you not think that the Gauge 0 show at Doncaster counts then? In any case I think they'd all be much happier with better Mail Order rather than multiple shows if they had to make a choice?

 

I made no comment on the Gauge O show, nor did I realise that was the comparison you were trying to make.  That is really a commercial decision for Phil to make (IIRC he has done both shows in the past so he knows the strengths and weaknesses of each).

 

Cheers, Mike

[Mike Bellamy]

Remember that under the previous ownership of C&L, they operated two trade stands - Pete with the main stand and Phil with a smaller display, and so a clash of dates such as this wasn't a problem. Now Phil is the sole owner instead of an occasional helper, it's up to him to decide where he could better serve his customers. He certainly seemed busy at the recent Derby show.

 

.

[Stephen Freeman]

That's all very well but people are already looking into making alternative arrangements

[dj_crisp]

Not sure I find it funny! . Surely if you must go to shows, at least pick ones that stand a good chance of showing a profit! I can't imagine many of the punters to that show being interested in trackwork, the show's name gives you a clue surely?

 

I kinda have to be interested in trackwork otherwise I'll have no where to run my models. LOL.

 

Not sure what your point is.

 

I'll get my coat.

[sharris]

Not sure I find it funny! . Surely if you must go to shows, at least pick ones that stand a good chance of showing a profit! I can't imagine many of the punters to [DEMU showcase] being interested in trackwork, the show's name gives you a clue surely?

 

However, if your EMUs happen to run on the Southern network you might be very interested in the trackwork - hint: C&L list a range of 3rd (and 4th) rail components on the website. 

[Stephen Freeman]

Everybody (well most everybody) can do Mail Order, only a minority go to shows and they certainly don't go to every show. As to the 3rd rail, I think quite a few turn a blind to that anyway.

 

Certainly I can't see enough dedicated customers attending a show to make it worth his while. Attendance at shows isn't cheap and he'd have to sell quite a lot just to cover his costs, whereas Mail Order incurs no additonal cost. I don't think many folk appreciate just how much of a cost it is to attend a show as a trader. Not just the stand fee but the travelling and accommodation expenses soon mount up.

 

Of course he may well have been committed to some of the shows at least, before Pete made the decision to sell and it will take some time to cut down on them.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Stephen Freeman

[Jol Wilkinson]

As you say he may have already been committed to those shows and  is also probably finding his way with those he didn't do for C&L previously.

 

One intangible benefit of attending shows as a trader is that you can establish relationships with potential customers. Of course, that only works if you have the appropriate interpersonal and communication skills, something which several traders I know lack. So, while you may not make a sale on the day, it may produce future online business.

[hayfield]

Guy, funny as in one post said he didn't have a show this weekend, immediately followed by one which said he did. Just reinforces a lack of organisation at C&L IMO. I do hope Phil gets to grips with it though.

 

 

Normally at these larger shows there are two of us, I could not make Saturday this year and Saturdays are the busiest day of a two day shows. Phil was on the stand on his own,not having any breaks, coupled with Saturday being one of the hottest days of the year. In fact he was rather unwell at the end of the day. I think that if he had been busy and made a genuine mistake is quite acceptable in the circumstances.

 

Your comments especially as you are unaware of all the facts are both unwarranted and spiteful. no wonder a lot of the traders sadly have stopped using this site.

[Arthur38]

Can I just add that Phil has already got the sales from mail order, surely it's in his best interests to get those orders out as soon as possible as he's already had 100% of the sales money and not go to as many shows hoping for further sales, even when I spoke to Phil on the 9th of May, prior to a show, I asked could I pick my order up at the show but was told he did and wouldn't have the time to get it ready but yet he can find the time to load up with stock for a show, hence my utter frustration!

[2ManySpams]

Normally at these larger shows there are two of us, I could not make Saturday this year and Saturdays are the busiest day of a two day shows. Phil was on the stand on his own,not having any breaks, coupled with Saturday being one of the hottest days of the year. In fact he was rather unwell at the end of the day. I think that if he had been busy and made a genuine mistake is quite acceptable in the circumstances.

 

Your comments especially as you are unaware of all the facts are both unwarranted and spiteful. no wonder a lot of the traders sadly have stopped using this site.

A somewhat unwarranted reply John given that I've consistently said I hope the situation gets better for him. Unfortunately observation at several shows has demonstrated that organisation is not Phil's strongest attribute. Frustrating if you're a customer trying to get served / your order posted - it's a very good job that modellers are generally a very understanding bunch.

[LBRJ]

Normally at these larger shows there are two of us, I could not make Saturday this year and Saturdays are the busiest day of a two day shows. Phil was on the stand on his own,not having any breaks, coupled with Saturday being one of the hottest days of the year. In fact he was rather unwell at the end of the day. I think that if he had been busy and made a genuine mistake is quite acceptable in the circumstances.

 

Your comments especially as you are unaware of all the facts are both unwarranted and spiteful. no wonder a lot of the traders sadly have stopped using this site.

 

I don't quite get you here -  Its a business Phil is running, not a hobby, and sometimes things at work can be very hard. You jus have to pull through and take steps to make sure it doesn't happen again.

 

Seems a lot too harsh on Chris there too - Like most of us he has the best concerns of C& L at heart.

There is a danger that if things are left to just muddle along there may not be a C&L in the future.

[Ravenser]

Those who have outstanding mail orders with C+L have understandable and entirely legitimate concerns which we would all want to see resolved. We all want to see C+L prospering and operating well. 

 

However attending shows with a stand is an entirely normal trading pattern , and something that C+L have done for years. It clearly makes fundamental business sense for a lot of small traders in the hobby.

 

If comments had been left at "C+L need to make sure they don't allow their show commitments to compromise the mail-order business" I don't think anyone would have felt obliged to react.

 

But to publicly criticise a trader for supporting a specialist society show the stand has attended for several years, and to suggest he ought to be at another show instead, on the grounds that the patrons of the first show aren't worth bothering with - this in the face of the show manager , during the setup for the show - is something I've not seen before. 

 

 

 

I don't quite get you here -  Its a business Phil is running, not a hobby, and sometimes things at work can be very hard. You jus have to pull through and take steps to make sure it doesn't happen again.

 

Seems a lot too harsh on Chris there too - Like most of us he has the best concerns of C& L at heart.

 

We are talking about a question to someone single-manning a stand at a busy show , late on a long hot day , about future diary commitments - it's hardly a hanging issue or a significant business failure itself and it's a little bit over the top to suggest it shows there is something fundamentally wrong with the business

[2ManySpams]

I do wonder if some of the recent fuss has been caused by a misunderstanding?

 

Has a poster taken a DEMU showcase as an exhibition of diesel electric multiple units rather than a show hosted by the Diesel and Electric Modellers Unite group? The former wouldn't really put across a need for a specialist track trader whereas the latter does.

 

Just wondering...

 

(PS, despite modelling 60s steam I'll be at DEMU all weekend. Good trains is good trains and it's normally a good show)

[PeteScR]

Everybody (well most everybody) can do Mail Order, only a minority go to shows and they certainly don't go to every show. As to the 3rd rail, I think quite a few turn a blind to that anyway.

 

Certainly I can't see enough dedicated customers attending a show to make it worth his while. Attendance at shows isn't cheap and he'd have to sell quite a lot just to cover his costs, whereas Mail Order incurs no additonal cost. I don't think many folk appreciate just how much of a cost it is to attend a show as a trader. Not just the stand fee but the travelling and accommodation expenses soon mount up.

 

Of course he may well have been committed to some of the shows at least, before Pete made the decision to sell and it will take some time to cut down on them.

 

Stephen, I have been reading the posts you have put up on this thread and cant help thinking that you must be commenting from a position of ignorance as to who builds their own track and what shows like DEMU Showcase are about.

 

A significant number of D&E modellers that I know of are also members of the S4 society or the EMGS, sometimes both. These guys (me included) have chosen to build more authentic track work and model in a gauge that is more representative of the real thing. The numbers I am sure are rising and it is great to know that Exactoscale will once more be standing on its own again, and that C&L have continued to trade. We also have the excellent Colin Craig kits and details to call on for flat bottomed work. There will always be a place for PECO ( and their latest products on finer looking points are an improvement), but there are many of us out there that are modellers of track and modifiers of stock.

 

On the subject of DEMU Showcase, I organised that for 4 years and one of the rules we had (which I believe is still alive), is that we keep trader rents to a minimum in order to attract the smaller guys who often produce the parts that real modelllers want. In some cases we waived the rent in order to give them a leg-up and make the show more attractive to attendees, whilst at the same time keeping entry fees as low as possible. Showcase is not a cash-cow for DEMU or any trader that attends and that is recognised. What it is is the most significant event in the calendar for D&E Modellers and the trade to come together and look at whats new, discuss future projects and bounce ideas around in a friendly and informal atmosphere. Nobody expects to make a killing out of it.

 

I hope you can manage along this weekend and see what I mean.

 

Pete

[Stephen Freeman]

Stephen, I have been reading the posts you have put up on this thread and cant help thinking that you must be commenting from a position of ignorance as to who builds their own track and what shows like DEMU Showcase are about.

 

A significant number of D&E modellers that I know of are also members of the S4 society or the EMGS, sometimes both. These guys (me included) have chosen to build more authentic track work and model in a gauge that is more representative of the real thing. The numbers I am sure are rising and it is great to know that Exactoscale will once more be standing on its own again, and that C&L have continued to trade. We also have the excellent Colin Craig kits and details to call on for flat bottomed work. There will always be a place for PECO ( and their latest products on finer looking points are an improvement), but there are many of us out there that are modellers of track and modifiers of stock.

 

On the subject of DEMU Showcase, I organised that for 4 years and one of the rules we had (which I believe is still alive), is that we keep trader rents to a minimum in order to attract the smaller guys who often produce the parts that real modelllers want. In some cases we waived the rent in order to give them a leg-up and make the show more attractive to attendees, whilst at the same time keeping entry fees as low as possible. Showcase is not a cash-cow for DEMU or any trader that attends and that is recognised. What it is is the most significant event in the calendar for D&E Modellers and the trade to come together and look at whats new, discuss future projects and bounce ideas around in a friendly and informal atmosphere. Nobody expects to make a killing out of it.

 

I hope you can manage along this weekend and see what I mean.

 

Pete

Good Morning,

 

That all makes a refreshing change from the norm I have to say. The impression I have is that most shows try to maximise the trade stand fees as much as possible, to keep admission as low as possible in order to attract as many as they can. One of the reasons (not the only one, if indeed not the main one) I stopped doing shows years ago is that it was/is more profitable to concentrate on the internet side of things, most of the time I was lucky if I broke even. It was only the advantage of nuturing future business that was the real positive aspect from a trade point of view.

 

Having said that I still find it a strange choice on Phil's part. C&L is mainly involved with Bullhead track and whilst some Modern era (I use that term loosely) will find  Bullhead meets their needs, many if not most will be more interested in at least some Flatbottom.  In previous times C&L also sold Peco products but not now, so now he has no 7mm scale Code 143 or pandrols. In 4mm, scale no pandrols (I know he does clips but they are prototypically quite old), I understand the code 82 has a narrower head than it should be, and no code 83 rail.

 

So why? Still seems a strange choice.

Edited June 2, 2018 by Stephen Freeman

[hayfield]

A somewhat unwarranted reply John given that I've consistently said I hope the situation gets better for him. Unfortunately observation at several shows has demonstrated that organisation is not Phil's strongest attribute. Frustrating if you're a customer trying to get served / your order posted - it's a very good job that modellers are generally a very understanding bunch.

 

 

I am not trying to defend the issues that have arisen with the mail order side, I agree it should have been dealt with earlier and agree priority should be given to the earliest orders. I too have been slightly let down as it took him 3 shows to finally bring the parts I required. But he is doing hios best

 

I probably know more of what has been happening behind the scenes than most but there are things I am not privy to.  When Phil took over (after other buyers walked away) the business was in a sorry state.

 

However to pick on an honest mistake when a person was both under pressure and ill, probably serving three people at that time is out of order.

 

As for those who are telling him to stop going to shows, many of his customers prefer to buy direct and cannot/do not like internet ordering. Shows are an important part of his and other companies income stream. And helps keep the company running