C&L Finescale

[martin_wynne]

Good evening, I have sent an enquiry email 1st thing this morning about some 7mm stuff, so I shall await and see how the communication goes with this one before buying, I shall report back.

 

But the web site says: do not email

 

You may not agree with that, but it's not fair to expect someone to do what they never offered to do.

 

Admittedly the grammar is a bit confused in places. The site has been updated today -- the news about the 00-SF gauges is worrying, I hope the quality doesn't suffer: http://www.finescale.org.uk

 

Martin.

[Vistisen]

But the web site says: do not email

 

You may not agree with that, but it's not fair to expect someone to do what they never offered to do.

 

Admittedly the grammar is a bit confused in places. The site has been updated today -- the news about the 00-SF gauges is worrying, I hope the quality doesn't suffer: http://www.finescale.org.uk

 

Martin.

No that is NOT what the website says. It says If you want to pick up at a show, then ring don't mail. The poster you are lecturing says absolutely nothing about emailing an order to be picked up at a show. It was just "an enquiry".

Edited June 11, 2018 by Vistiaen

[Lecorbusier]

Is it just me .... I can't see an e-mail address on the site - just the contact form.

 

If I am correct and there is no e-mail address on the site, then this would suggest that e-mail is not the best mode of contact?

 

Can I also suggest that if you are simply making an enquirey the phone might be the best method of communication. Particularly as there does appear to be an aversion to e-mails as evidenced by the request not to e-mail orders. In discussion with other small operators I have often been told how much time can be wasted on enquiries that never lead to sales. At least if someone makes the effort to phone it suggests they are serious.

 

Last time I ordered I placed the order on the web site and then immediately followed up with a phone call ... everything arrived safe and sound within a reasonable time period.

[martin_wynne]

No that is NOT what the website says. It says If you want to pick up at a show, then ring don't mail. The poster you are lecturing says absolutely nothing about emailing an order to be picked up at a show. It was just "an enquiry".

 

Nevertheless it's very obvious from the web site that Phil doesn't have time to deal with email enquiries, and prefers a phone call. If he can't keep up with actual orders, how is he going to find time to deal with mere enquiries?

 

Martin.

[Stephen Freeman]

If it's difficult to phone and email is questionable?...

 

I would have thought that an email you can respond to at a time to suit yourself would be less disruptive than a constant stream of phone calls. Similarly the ability to have an online payment system must save time?

[roythebus]

You are wasting your time emailing as he doesn't respond. My orders have typically taken 6 - 8 weeks - whether this is due to stock problems, lack of time due to other commitments (i.e shows), supplier issues or just general poor business practise is unclear. The issue of communication has been raised a number of times and personally I think its inexcusable given the ease of providing this in a tech powered world, even if you are a one man business.

 

Phil needs to be careful as I think that The Distance Selling Regulations require acknowledgment of pre-paid on-line orders and time bound delivery details.

 

I was about to mention the Distance Selling Regulations which can be quite onerous, especially on a small business. My business, selling vintage bus spares recently lost a county court case because someone didn't want the overhauled unit I sold him; he returned it 6 months later and demanded money back even though it turned out to be in perfect order. The judge cited the DSR and because my paperwork didn't say certain things, I lost the case.

 

I'd suggest we don't take this line with C&L, losing a couple of court cases could shut the business down.

[roythebus]

Hi Ravenser,

 

Regardless of the origins* of the DOGA-Fine standard, the C&L web site at: http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=346_375_376 says:

 

"

4mm OO Track Gauges.

Track Gauges are to the Double O Gauge Association Finetrack Standard, using a 1mm flangeway gap. 

4mm OO Back to Back Gauges

Back to Back gauges are to the Double O Gauge Association Intermediate Standard

"

 

Disregarding the obvious nonsense of selling track gauges and wheel gauges to two different standards which are not compatible with one another, the clear implication is that the gauges comply with standards "owned" by DOGA.

 

By whatever means C&L arrived at this situation, they are clearly doing no favours for the majority of 00 modellers.

 

Made all the more nonsensical by the fact that they also supply 00-SF track gauges, which DO allow both the use of EM-style 1mm flangeways AND unmodified modern RTR models together, even if not at very sharp radii (a restriction equally applicable to DOGA-Fine).

 

*I believe originally suggested by Iain Rice in his trackbuilding book.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

I would repeat what I said in maybe another thread on here about 16.2mm track. the late Frank Dyer of "Borchester" fame built the track for the MRC's New Annington branch in 197i to 16.2mm gauge with 1mm flangeways. Whether or not Borchester was built to 16.2 has been debated on here as well. It's nothing new. 

 

I'd hasten to add it worked and ran remarkably well, taking all but the most coarse wheels of 1979 without modification.

[Junctionmad]

all I can say  is my experiences with C&L in the past , communications by email were prompt, dispatch was prompt 

 

Now , nothing is like that 

 

Ive said it before, the solution is  a proper online stock controlled  marketplace, widely available at a reasonable cost , customers only order stock that can be delivered, stock is decremented automatically, payments are processed automatically by the site , with appropriate auto generated  responses and auto generated customer order tracking 

 

Thousand , nay millions of small one small band traders cant be wrong 

 

The alternative of chasing back orders , being  dammed by phone calls ( which you cant answer in a a time that suits you ) , looking unresponsive etc etc 

 

Thats called " slowly going out of business "

 

there is no going back to the past , its 2018  not 1818 , perceptions have changed , expectations have changed 

 

the current business model will simply overwhelm Phil , I have no doubt whatsoever if he retains this model , it will fail him . 

[Lecorbusier]

Aren't there a number of existing small traders in the hobby who still operate in a more trad. manner? I am pretty certain last time I dealt with LRM and Branchlines this was the case. I had a feeling the same was true for South Eastern.

 

I suppose it all depends on the product and the competition.

[RichardS]

It's very easy to comment on anything these days via online forums with the sanctuary of anonymity and the safety net of distance.

 

It's also very easy to find fault with the behaviour of others. We humans are adept at this in all spheres of life.

 

We find it far harder to offer solutions.

 

If individuals are unhappy with the C&L situation I observe that any of us had the chance to buy C&L and to run it as we perceive to be 'the right way.'

 

In fact anybody could offer to buy it from him now. For the right price he might sell who knows.

 

Any of us could volunteer to lend the proprietor a hand to sort things out. He might not accept. But apart from John (Hayfield who helps at shows) has anybody offered?

 

Any of us could start a new business making track components.

 

There's only so much point in negatively criticising a situation for so long, after a while the activity becomes utterly pointless.

 

Then is the time to take alternative actions in pursuit of your personal goals.

 

There is always an alternative.

Edited June 12, 2018 by RichardS

[muddys-blues]

Gents there is a facility in the contact us section, where you fill out your details and the nature of your enquiry.

 

This facility is used by other suppliers, the previous C&L owner, Peter Clark Models & others, which I have received a prompt response from.

 

If I don’t hear by the end of the week, then I shall ring them next, personally I find email is easier as it gives the business the opportunity to respond in their own time, phone calls can be a chore, especially as some callers to the business just want to waffle on as they have the time to do so.

 

Best regards

Craig

[hayfield]

No that is NOT what the website says. It says If you want to pick up at a show, then ring don't mail. The poster you are lecturing says absolutely nothing about emailing an order to be picked up at a show. It was just "an enquiry".

 

 

I think given what has gone on in the past Martins suggestion is a good one and could save quite a lot of issues down the line, example 10 items ordered, one is out of stock, a phone call may result in the 9 in stock being sent with the remainder to follow, rather than 9 items being held up for the out of stock item to arrive

 

Nevertheless it's very obvious from the web site that Phil doesn't have time to deal with email enquiries, and prefers a phone call. If he can't keep up with actual orders, how is he going to find time to deal with mere enquiries?

 

Martin.

 

Martin, as you have said Phil has offered to take telephone enquiries, why not accept the offer. Shear common sense to me

 

If it's difficult to phone and email is questionable?...

 

I would have thought that an email you can respond to at a time to suit yourself would be less disruptive than a constant stream of phone calls. Similarly the ability to have an online payment system must save time?

 

Stephen

 

There are the odd days Phil is unavailable, most predictable due to his attendance at shows, normally when I phone he answers, if not I phone another day. There are several one man businesses where the phones are not manned from 9 to 5. I understand how the business is run and now reorder items well before I need them.

 

Now I want some lengths of rail from Peco, I have ordered hem from my local stockist and as the Peco rep is not visiting for over a month I will not get the items till July, OK I could phone the order through, but prefer to support my local retailer and will put up with the wait 

Im Hoping the guy can sort it out ,but it does look like he’s making it harder for himself than what it needs to be

I’ve read numerous places he’s been offered advice and that he’s totally ignored it ,he’s happy to do it his way which looks like it’s going to be his downfall

It’ll only take a few people to go to go court to get there money back and he’s in real problems

I can’t understand how taking a phone call can be less time consuming than looking and answering emails

Like I said hope he sorts this out but think he needs to stop

Take stock as it were and start again and get a way that works better for him and his customers

 

Brian

 

Brian

 

Phil is learning how to run a business (from start to finish) on the job, he is altering his sales processes as he goes along and streamlining them where possible, there are things which are out of his hands or where the funds to reinvest into the business are needed elsewhere more ungently. Contrary from what is being written  most orders are being met in a timely fashion, one of the biggest issues in the past was an IT failure where the previous owner turned off a bit of software which unknown to them failed to save some orders. None had been paid for and Phil was unaware of their existence. Also other orders are held up waiting for out of stock items to arrive, a quick phone call often resolves these issues

 

Things are improving and Phil will be the first to admit further progress is required, which he is what he is trying to do. As I said before I have met a small band of traders who just don't bother reading RMweb simply because of the unreasonable behaviour of a very small group of posters. These are a group of very reasonable people who are trying to give the hobby a service. 

[sharris]

Any of us could volunteer to lend the proprietor a hand to sort things out. He might not accept. But apart from John (Hayfield who helps at shows) has anybody offered?

 

 

I should send SWMBO over to him - she's always sorting me out. Whether Phil would ever find anything again is another matter! 

[martin_wynne]

If it's difficult to phone and email is questionable?...

 

I would have thought that an email you can respond to at a time to suit yourself would be less disruptive than a constant stream of phone calls. Similarly the ability to have an online payment system must save time?

 

What suits one person doesn't suit another. Emails are fine -- IF you can keep on top of them. If they build up they become a nightmare. With a phone call, yes it's an interruption, but you have no choice but to deal with it then and there. And if you can't there is always the option of switching the phone off. Whereas trying to work on something important while knowing in the back of your mind that there are several dozen emails waiting for attention can be utterly soul destroying. It's obvious from the web site that the written word isn't one of Phil's strengths. If he says he prefers a phone call why not accept the fact?

 

Martin.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Aren't there a number of existing small traders in the hobby who still operate in a more trad. manner? I am pretty certain last time I dealt with LRM and Branchlines this was the case. I had a feeling the same was true for South Eastern.

 

I suppose it all depends on the product and the competition.

 

Indeed there are. But, you rightly call them "small traders". C&L was built into quite a big business with a lot of customers. More difficult to manage and I would agree with those that say it needs more commercial focus, IT systems, etc. I think the new owner may have to make a choice: go bigger with help or accept that the business will decline. Which decision he takes will be dependent on his means.

 

Earlier someone suggested that he had ignored advice. We don't know that. Ignoring advice is not the same thing as choosing not to follow that advice.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Joseph_Pestell

[chris p bacon]

Indeed there are. But, you rightly call them "small traders". C&L was built into quite a big business with a lot of customers. More difficult to manage and I would agree with those that say it needs more commercial focus, IT systems, etc. I think the new owner may have to make a choice: go bigger with help or accept that the business will decline. Which decision he takes will be dependent on his means.

 

Earlier someone suggested that he had ignored advice. We don't know that. Ignoring advice is not the same thing as choosing not to follow that advice.

 

 

Or being able to actually afford the advice given.

[Horsetan]

....Any of us could volunteer to lend the proprietor a hand to sort things out. He might not accept. ...

See also Coopercraft....

[muddys-blues]

I met up with a previous employee of C&L, which he pointed out to me that C&L used to be the owner and 3 employees, run out of a functioning retail unit, so to go from that size of business to being run by a single person will certainly have an impact on its day to day running, unless there are some serious efficiency drives or curtailing of stock.

 

I for one, like many others wouldn’t want to see C&L disappear, that is why I choose to support it, but the retailer must provide a decent level of service, it’s not too much to expect as a customer.

 

PS I run my own business with 3 x full time employees and 4 seasonal part time employees, so I fully support those who furrow a lonely path in business, it’s tough, but communication is key to your customers.

 

Best regards

Craig

[hayfield]

Indeed there are. But, you rightly call them "small traders". C&L was built into quite a big business with a lot of customers. More difficult to manage and I would agree with those that say it needs more commercial focus, IT systems, etc. I think the new owner may have to make a choice: go bigger with help or accept that the business will decline. Which decision he takes will be dependent on his means.

 

Earlier someone suggested that he had ignored advice. We don't know that. Ignoring advice is not the same thing as choosing not to follow that advice.

 

Joseph

 

The previous business model was not sustainable and failed as a business

 

Until Phil bought the business it had declined through lack of investment due to being unprofitable and to coin a phrase hit the buffer stops

 

Common knowledge this company can only exist as a cottage industry, that's not to say that it cannot be run well. Why is going bigger the only way this company can exist ? There are plenty of small businesses in niche markets which make a living for the owners. Track sales on their own will not keep the business afloat as previous owners quickly found out and Phil is also selling 0 gauge items at shows, that's not saying track will take a back seat as Phil is investing in new tooling to keep the range going, but funds are limited and the most important areas will be the first to be invested in.

 

A lot of people are happy to make suggestions how to improve the business, without knowing anything about the company and its constraints. Yes there are some no cost wins that can be achieved and should be encouraged, other ideas which cost money may have to wait until funds are available

 

Lets face it, I can remember 4 owners of C&L and to date 3 (soon to be 4) distributors of Exactoscale, I as a modeller can see marketing opportunities of both ranges,

 

I have been in the retail trade for over 20 years  during my working life, and in sales since the age of 11 (when I had a paper round after school selling both the Evening News and Standard) The things I have not been involved in is design and procurement, I also have limited involvement in stock management. I like to think I would do things a little differently, that's no guarantee it would be either better or profitable.

[martin_wynne]

but the retailer must provide a decent level of service, it’s not too much to expect as a customer.

 

There is only so much one man can do in a working day and remain sustainable lomg-term.

 

If there is too much work for one person there are only 2 options:

 

1. get more people. Expensive and risky, and a whole new set of responsibilities.

 

2. reduce the amount of work. That can be done by reducing the number of lines (no Carrs, no Peco, no Exactoscale), and/or by reducing the demand. Maybe by choosing a way of working which appeals to fewer customers (no emails, no web site, sae for a list, send a cheque, ...).

 

If you reduce demand you can eventually reach an equilibrium position where your days are nicely filled providing a first-class service to the group of customers who are happy to deal with you in your preferred way. The others will go elsewhere and leave you in peace. The result is that you are still there 20 years later. Not much richer, but maybe happy.

 

Martin.

[muddys-blues]

There is only so much one man can do in a working day and remain sustainable lomg-term.
 
If there is too much work for one person there are only 2 options:
 
1. get more people. Expensive and risky, and a whole new set of responsibilities.
 
** Yes very true, but we don’t know the figures to say that can be afforded by Phil **


2. reduce the amount of work. That can be done by reducing the number of lines (no Carrs, no Peco, no Exactoscale), and/or by reducing the demand. Maybe by choosing a way of working which appeals to fewer customers (no emails, no web site, sae for a list, send a cheque, ...).

*** yes this can be done also, but if you have paid XY or Z £’s for a business surely you want a return on your monies, which means concentrating on your core range and going with the closely related spin off products that suit.

 

Also what happens when the Luddite customers die off ? And the only ones out there use emails to communicate, or you are profoundly deaf so don’t use a phone, Card payments or bank transfers or your only option because the bank you deal with has stopped issuing cheque books ? Do you choose to wait to pick up from a show ? But you live on the Scottish Ilses and C&L aren’t going any further North to a show than Carlisle this year because of the reduced workload ? ***
 
If you reduce demand you can eventually reach an equilibrium position where your days are nicely filled providing a first-class service to the group of customers who are happy to deal with you in your preferred way. The others will go elsewhere and leave you in peace. The result is that you are still there 20 years later. Not much richer, but maybe happy.

**** or you reach the point where you have killed off the business altogether because you have run it like you are in the last years of winding down before retiring ***

Craig


 

Edited June 12, 2018 by muddys-blues

[Stephen Freeman]

There is only so much one man can do in a working day and remain sustainable lomg-term.

 

If there is too much work for one person there are only 2 options:

 

1. get more people. Expensive and risky, and a whole new set of responsibilities.

 

2. reduce the amount of work. That can be done by reducing the number of lines (no Carrs, no Peco, no Exactoscale), and/or by reducing the demand. Maybe by choosing a way of working which appeals to fewer customers (no emails, no web site, sae for a list, send a cheque, ...).

 

If you reduce demand you can eventually reach an equilibrium position where your days are nicely filled providing a first-class service to the group of customers who are happy to deal with you in your preferred way. The others will go elsewhere and leave you in peace. The result is that you are still there 20 years later. Not much richer, but maybe happy.

 

Martin.

Martin,

 

Most of Carrs if not all has gone to Phoenix Precision Paints, Peco went when he took over as he does not have a physical shop and Exactoscale are probably going in or after July.

 

People (not me, at any rate not yet) are already experimenting with 3D printing, probably still a little way to go but it may be more convenient for those looking for an alternative eventually but may be with us sooner than some think, though I'm not so sure on the ease of use (yet). Rail is available elsewhere anyway. He needs to encourage people to continue buying his products. I don't think the current status quo will do that.

[Joseph_Pestell]

There is only so much one man can do in a working day and remain sustainable lomg-term.

 

If there is too much work for one person there are only 2 options:

 

1. get more people. Expensive and risky, and a whole new set of responsibilities.

 

2. reduce the amount of work. That can be done by reducing the number of lines (no Carrs, no Peco, no Exactoscale), and/or by reducing the demand. Maybe by choosing a way of working which appeals to fewer customers (no emails, no web site, sae for a list, send a cheque, ...).

 

If you reduce demand you can eventually reach an equilibrium position where your days are nicely filled providing a first-class service to the group of customers who are happy to deal with you in your preferred way. The others will go elsewhere and leave you in peace. The result is that you are still there 20 years later. Not much richer, but maybe happy.

 

Martin.

 

That's what I meant. But you have put it more eloquently.

[Joseph_Pestell]

 

 

The previous business model was not sustainable and failed as a business

 

Until Phil bought the business it had declined through lack of investment due to being unprofitable and to coin a phrase hit the buffer stops

 

 

 

It did not seem to be doing that badly. But nor was it strong enough to survive the ill-health of its then owner.

 

To an extent, I do think that the business had extended itself too much. But I can't be sure as I don't have all the facts relating to that period.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Just had a look at the website; my first visit since current owner took over.

 

Not encouraging in tone and content. Others have already commented on the spelling and grammar.

 

On the matter of gauges, surely there are plenty of folk within the railway modelling community (including here on RMWeb) who have the skills and tooling to produce the gauges for him? I might ask my father-in-law. Mother-in-law would be glad of something which kept him busy,

Edited June 12, 2018 by Joseph_Pestell